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RE: Socialism - 2/14/2008 9:19:04 PM   
MsBearlee


Posts: 1032
Joined: 2/15/2006
Status: offline 		LMAO…………………
 
This is exactly why I try to stay out of ‘Off Topic’…so many of those here are absolutely rabid to be right that you will say that if we (the Europeans) took land from one tribe and another tries to take it back…it wasn’t an invasion of Native American soil…….that if we somehow manage to get a piece, those who live on that land (no parsing insinuated), are the invading party?  Sheeshhhhhhhhhh
 
I’m guessing that is how some can say there were no jewish-death-camps, either.  <shakes head> 
 
Sure, you have to carefully craft your sentences to remain ‘right’…but surely anybody with more than a 5th grade education would know better; all others are just here to argue.
 
And……I’m only gonna provide wanking material if I can watch; in person!
 
B

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This one, as well!

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Profile   Post #: 241
RE: Socialism - 2/14/2008 9:24:11 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		You can't take something back that was never yours.

"that if we somehow manage to get a piece, those who live on that land (no parsing insinuated), are the invading party?  Sheeshhhhhhhhhh "

I never said nor implied anything remotley like that. 

Holocoust Denier?  Why exactly do we have Mods again?

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Profile   Post #: 242
RE: Socialism - 2/14/2008 9:37:43 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		luckydog:
Who were these Native Americans who invaded the U.S.?
What were the circumstances?
thompson

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Profile   Post #: 243
RE: Socialism - 2/14/2008 11:11:47 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Socialism embraces hierarchy, albeit as a stepping stone towards Communism.


Only according to Marxist theory, which has been rejected by just about everyone, first and foremost rejected by the liberal socialists of the west.

And am I confused or doesn't capitalist corporate America also embrace hierarchy as part of the oligarchic government structure they've imposed through their political contributions? CEO? CFO? President, Vice-President, etc...?

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 244
RE: Socialism - 2/14/2008 11:18:12 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

See, you don't need to move to socialism... there's a simpler mode that resolves it:



With respect for the material snipped ...

Aswad, I wouldn't disagree at all, but I am aware that every government propaganda machine for every nation would make similar claims about their various methods of inculcating a sense of citizenship in their populations.

As they say: "the devil is in the details."

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 245
RE: Socialism - 2/14/2008 11:27:48 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		 Hey you, Loveisallyouneed,welcome back.

Neat nic,btw.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/14/2008 11:29:33 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 246
RE: Socialism - 2/14/2008 11:37:10 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		Thank you for bringing the following quote forward:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Like the Art majors.. they don't do it because it'll heal anyone or produce any food, but because they think it's fun. 



Does anyone else think that smacks of Puritanism?

Fun is bad?

Working class pursuing dreams is bad?

Working class lifting its nose off the grindstone to see the stars is bad?

Higher education for working class shouldn't amount to more than a trade school?

So who should be 'entitled' to pursue the arts? Who should write our books, paint our pictures, carve our marble, compose our symphonies?

The rich?

< Message edited by Loveisallyouneed -- 2/15/2008 12:00:24 AM >

(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 247
RE: Socialism - 2/14/2008 11:45:17 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Everything you're doing looks like you don't like something.  Something that I remind you of.  Something that you can use my as a scape goat for to pass off your aggressions on. 



Funny you should mention that:

"I spend all day reading science texts."

"I'm just so tired of seeing Art majors and guys working at Pizza Hut.  It's not the poor people I'm mad at, but the people who don't do anything or spend their time with self-gratifying things.  Like the Art majors.. they don't do it because it'll heal anyone or produce any food, but because they think it's fun.  They want to spend all of their time playing.  Or, the guys who work at Pizza Hut who are just too lazy.  Or the frat boys who will consume their parents' resources in a drunken set of years, then drop out and live off social security/unemployment/other people/whatever."

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 248
RE: Socialism - 2/14/2008 11:49:36 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

It's kind of silly to be worried about who's "better".  Couldn't "different" just fly?



Wouldn't that also apply to the Art Majors you've mentioned? And the hippies, and pot-smokers?

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 249
RE: Socialism - 2/14/2008 11:58:34 PM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		<a humble bow>

Thank you.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 250
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 12:32:06 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Are there any survivors?


Z.


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Profile   Post #: 251
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 12:54:45 AM   
Loveisallyouneed


Posts: 348
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Are there any survivors?


Z.



sorry, Z, but I'll require some clarification before I understand the question.

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Profile   Post #: 252
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 1:26:45 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Socialism embraces hierarchy, albeit as a stepping stone towards Communism.


Only according to Marxist theory, which has been rejected by just about everyone, first and foremost rejected by the liberal socialists of the west.

And am I confused or doesn't capitalist corporate America also embrace hierarchy as part of the oligarchic government structure they've imposed through their political contributions? CEO? CFO? President, Vice-President, etc...?


Accepting hierachies, whether formally or informally is part of the human condition. I would like anyone to point out to me a society where there isn't an hierachy.

As for everyone rejecting Marxism, there wouldn't be any democratic socialists without Marxist theory, there wouldn't be socialogical sciences or social workers etc. etc. Many of Marx's ideas have been assimilated into the social mainstream (even in America!). It is just politically convenient for politicians to pretend Marx has disappeared totally from society, especially in America where the majority have bought into ideological capitalism, even if they would revolt if they were made to live in a capitalist society uninfluenced by Marxist thought.

If you look at the aims of most European democratic socialists in the 1890s, just about all their aims have been fullfilled. So much for socialism having lost the ideological battle. The real problem for society, is how to stop the reimposition of ideological capitalism now you stand the chance of being accused of being a sociopath if you believe in socialist ideals.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/15/2008 1:30:51 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 253
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 2:29:00 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Not a question directed at you specifically, L, inspite of what the little tag in the right corner might say. It's just there was there was this shrill noise, then a lot of heat and smoke and opinions flying everywhere and then, suddenly, it got really quiet...

Glad to see you are still standing.


Z. 

_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 254
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 2:32:11 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:


Speaking of his attempts to return Texas and Califorinia to Mexico seeks said
I need those  who had the guts to travel around the world in a wooden boat, explore and be adventurous not those who can see no further than the non existant fraternity of man.[


quote:

Thompson
Exploring and adventure are one thing,rape pillage and plunder are quite something else.

 
Who could disagree with the second part ? The sad fact is that such things seem to be part of the human psyche and many will not face that fact.
The truth is that those of a Left Wing outlook  appear to be selective in their condemnation.
For instance the history of many African tribes is one of constant War. If this is not true of the native American then that is probably because the US is so big that competition for resources or prestige did not occur.

White Liberal guilt for atrocities that occurred 150 years ago irritates me.and seems only to  make white Liberals feel better about themselves.

This rosy coloured attitude applies in particur to Liberals and their view of Socialism Even I can see the theoretical advantages of it but I also recognise that when it has been tried it fails. Possibly because the UK did try it and the result was not good.
The correct solution for the US is more Social Democracy. Why is it for example that the great Liberal Arts universities dont seem to have produced any radical  political movements seeking to soften the rather brutal, by European standards, form of free enterprise that exists in the US ?

 
 
 
 


(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 255
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 2:48:03 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

Once a person steps up to the plate and vomits up a stew of childish American right-wing cliches, it really isn't much of a stretch to assume that he's swallowed more of them. [...] I have responded to your pointlessly martial rhetoric and pointed out that this sort of pseudo-reasoning has social and political consequences to the American people.


Not trying to pull up the past here, just using it as an example to illustrate.

CuriousLord noted that this was a rant/vent, that he was sleep deprived and emotional, and that he could see flaws in what he said. In a thread a while ago, Lashra emoted similarly, though more violently, with men being the target, rather than socialists. At the time, you forwarded the same defenses that are now being forwarded by CL, while you are now dismissing them, and inferring that there has to be something deeper- which is what I said of the sentiments expressed in that thread, but which you said were unreasonable inferences at the time.

Perhaps you might pause to consider giving a man the same benefit of the doubt that you would give a woman?

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 256
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 2:58:04 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed

Aswad, I wouldn't disagree at all, but I am aware that every government propaganda machine for every nation would make similar claims about their various methods of inculcating a sense of citizenship in their populations. As they say: "the devil is in the details."


Yeah. I know. This didn't strike me as the halls of government, though.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Loveisallyouneed)
Profile   Post #: 257
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 4:07:39 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:


Speaking of his attempts to return Texas and California to Mexico seeks said
I need those  who had the guts to travel around the world in a wooden boat, explore and be adventurous not those who can see no further than the non existent fraternity of man.[
quote:

Thompson
Exploring and adventure are one thing,rape pillage and plunder are quite something else.
 
quote:

seeks
Who could disagree with the second part ? The sad fact is that such things seem to be part of the human psyche and many will not face that fact.
For instance the history of many African tribes is one of constant War. If this is not true of the native Americans then that is probably because the US is so big that competition for resources or prestige did not occur.

Seeks then sent out a Red Eagles recce party who found this
quote:

There can be little doubt that cultural beliefs and norms supported intertribal conflict on the Great Plains. As Hoig (1993, 22; also see Lowie 1954, 106) explains, "The tribal male's innermost self was programmed from birth toward his emergence as a warrior. Though it was usually his own choice to do so, becoming a warrior was psychologically predetermined. Bravery was stressed above all other virtues, and to die for one's people in battle was the highest honor. As a result, the Indian warrior was often a highly motivated and extremely fearless fighter." Mishkin (1940, 2) also stresses that "Each man's display of courage in combat and the performance of certain deeds were highly esteemed and added to his prestige…. In Plains social position hinged mainly on achievement in war."


Idealists of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your blinkers.


 
 
 
 



(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 258
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 7:03:47 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:


Speaking of his attempts to return Texas and Califorinia to Mexico seeks said
I need those  who had the guts to travel around the world in a wooden boat, explore and be adventurous not those who can see no further than the non existant fraternity of man.[


quote:

Thompson
Exploring and adventure are one thing,rape pillage and plunder are quite something else.

 
Who could disagree with the second part ? The sad fact is that such things seem to be part of the human psyche and many will not face that fact.
You have made it pretty clear that it is part of your psyche but to contend that it applies to all is more than a bit presumptuous when numerous counter examples have been submitted on these discussion boards.


The truth is that those of a Left Wing outlook  appear to be selective in their condemnation.
For instance the history of many African tribes is one of constant War. If this is not true of the native American then that is probably because the US is so big that competition for resources or prestige did not occur.
You continue to try to paint this in a my team your team scenario.  I do not believe you will find any of my posts that claim that the left wing is any less guilty of these sorts of shenanigans than their counterparts.  So also of any other ethnic groups.
So please let us not seek to create a distinction that I have not made.

White Liberal guilt for atrocities that occurred 150 years ago irritates me.and seems only to  make white Liberals feel better about themselves.
You mistakenly label the truth for "white liberal guilt"


This rosy coloured attitude applies in particur to Liberals and their view of Socialism Even I can see the theoretical advantages of it but I also recognise that when it has been tried it fails. Possibly because the UK did try it and the result was not good.
I would agree that that is partially true but I would disagree that it was the whole truth.  Certain aspects of socialism were poorly applied and consequently failed to a greater or lesser degree.

The correct solution for the US is more Social Democracy. Why is it for example that the great Liberal Arts universities dont seem to have produced any radical  political movements seeking to soften the rather brutal, by European standards, form of free enterprise that exists in the US ?
I can only suggest that you may be poorly informed.  Should you compare and contrast the social economic conditions that flourished a hundred or so years ago and today in the U.S. you would discern many "improvements" but I would suggest nothing of the magnitude of some more "advanced" countries.


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 259
RE: Socialism - 2/15/2008 7:17:01 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:


Speaking of his attempts to return Texas and California to Mexico seeks said
I need those  who had the guts to travel around the world in a wooden boat, explore and be adventurous not those who can see no further than the non existent fraternity of man.[
quote:

Thompson
Exploring and adventure are one thing,rape pillage and plunder are quite something else.
 
quote:

seeks
Who could disagree with the second part ? The sad fact is that such things seem to be part of the human psyche and many will not face that fact.
For instance the history of many African tribes is one of constant War. If this is not true of the native Americans then that is probably because the US is so big that competition for resources or prestige did not occur.

Seeks then sent out a Red Eagles recce party who found this
quote:

There can be little doubt that cultural beliefs and norms supported intertribal conflict on the Great Plains. As Hoig (1993, 22; also see Lowie 1954, 106) explains, "The tribal male's innermost self was programmed from birth toward his emergence as a warrior. Though it was usually his own choice to do so, becoming a warrior was psychologically predetermined. Bravery was stressed above all other virtues, and to die for one's people in battle was the highest honor. As a result, the Indian warrior was often a highly motivated and extremely fearless fighter." Mishkin (1940, 2) also stresses that "Each man's display of courage in combat and the performance of certain deeds were highly esteemed and added to his prestige…. In Plains social position hinged mainly on achievement in war."


Idealists of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your blinkers.



seeks:
I am unsure of the point you are trying to make here.  To show that one group can or has been as capable as another of rape,pillage and plunder indicates your complete command of the obvious. 
If I have missed a more subtle aspect of this comparison I would await your elucidation.
thompson






(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 260
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