RE: The hardest task of all (Full Version)

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SwPuno -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/20/2008 8:30:49 PM)

I would not give up on the non-thinkers too quickly.  I can think of a couple of different things that might be leading to such behavior:

- bad relationships with mothers or other women in the past that have made them skittish.  One thing that may appeal to them about a femdom relationship is that the expectations and direction are more laid out and clear, with less guesswork on their part.  They may actually want to just explicitly follow orders and make the dominant happy, at least at the start.  The less they have to think or guess (possibly wrong) and incur the anger or punishment or possible banishment of a female dominant, the better for them.  Trust me, this happens.

- I've seen femdom clips (okay, not reality but a representation of a Femdom relationship, at least to newbies) where the males or subs were chastised for thinking or "trying to think" and were told and reinforced to just listen carefully and obey.  Some may have taken this to heart.

- you hear a lot how the kink world is not that big and that word gets around, especially among women.  No new sub knowing this wants a bad reputation and so doing expressly as they are instructed seems the safe way to go, at least to start off, until they have the lay of the land better.

So I think these might be some things to look out for.  With a little time and explanation that you want a thinking, contributing sub, with some positive reinforcement along the way as warranted, you might start to get the behavior you are looking for.

I hope this has been helpful.

SwPuno




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/20/2008 8:38:05 PM)

For me I often think they just freeze up- they want to do well but are overwhelmed with indecision, wanting to please, not sure exactly how that will work and just freeze up.  I've put a lot of work into my partner in teaching him over time that "It's ok to make me unhappy."

In that- it's ok to tell me something you know I won't like, it's ok to make mistakes, it's ok to teach me things.

I think a lot of subs, specially males, consider these things so completely unacceptable that it's not so much a matter that they can't think- it's that they are scared shitless that their thinking will cause unpleasantness and don't know WHAT to do.

Time, patience, expansion of understanding, laughter and an occasional sharp paddle I find can make a huge difference and help a scared stupid boy into a helpful foil for your use.



littlesarbonn -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/20/2008 10:08:50 PM)

Thinking's NEVER been a problem for me. As a matter of fact, STOPPING thinking and analyzing has been more of a problem than actually thinking. 



MsBearlee -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 5:56:23 AM)

Well, I hear what several of you are saying, but I’m just not into the ‘deer in headlights’ kinda guy.  Perhaps that’s why I generally prefer men who are decision makers in other parts of their lives to men who are just meek.
 
I’m no shrink and hell, I won’t even buy a dog till it’s at a year old; I really don’t wanna be raisin’ up my man, either.  I realize we all carry baggage, and I’m sure I have my fair share, but I do carry my own and I’d want my guy to be capable of doing the same.  I’m not a rescuer.  For me, a guy who was so timid or had fantasies that so over whelmed him he could hardly manage a relationship then, I’d just pass on that guy.
 
Perhaps PwPuno and LuckyAlbatross are better than I am, or just more willing to spend time teaching a guy to be what they want; it’s of no interest to me.  Several male Dominants have talked about how thrilling it is to have a strong, capable woman submit to them.  A high-powered exec or a business owner or a woman with kids and a job who is able to manage an interesting and exciting life for herself is an awesome find and these Doms find more value in her submission that they would a little mouse that needs rescuing.  That is how I feel too; I don’t want a successful man because I need rescuing, I do fine on my own thank you very much.  I want a successful man because a man who is strong and capable is just more fun to be around. 
 
Hmmmmmmmm… could it be the stronger the tree, the harder the fall?  Muh ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaa



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 7:51:01 AM)

I think of it as more stripping off a layer of illusions they've trapped themselves in, helping them come out of their shell. 

I think it's pretty obvious I'm not a rescuer type either.  In fact I've often said part of why I love my partner is that he has that thread of steel in him- that he WON'T just bend over or break, that he WILL stand up and do it.  He wrote a bondage ad to meet people back in the 80s, he went as a single male to Threshhold in LA in the early 90s- if that doesn't take a lot of guts and conviction, I don't know what does.

But that doesn't mean they don't have problems in other areas.  Most people are strong and confident in some ways and weak and insecure in others.  The fact that this dynamic IS so important to them can be part of why it is harder to break out of the illusions. 




MsBearlee -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 8:48:28 AM)

As you often do, LA, you showed me another way to look at something.
 
Yes, I realize people have different strengths and weaknesses...ALL of us do...  Still, I think some people enjoy rescuing people.  I know a vanilla guy here who goes round and round with a bi-polar woman he alternately loves and is furious over.  When he talks about the relationship failure, he talks about it in terms of 'all his hard work gone to waste'.  I would say he enjoys rescuing, molding, guiding, assisting…what ever one calls it.  I guess it just doesn’t appeal to me.  Perhaps it is because I come from a dysfunctional family where I ‘mommed’ all three brothers and my parents, or perhaps it is because I raised a seriously handicapped son by myself; I just don’t wanna do it anymore…I don’t think I could.
 
While I understand people love other people for all sorts of reasons, I’m just not sure I have the emotional fortitude to take on someone with those kinds of problems or even just serious self-esteem issues; which is what I thought we were alluding to. 
 
Something as minor as some little weakness…say; fear of pain for example…I hardly think of that as an issue.  <smiles at a friend>  LOL
 
B



LadyHibiscus -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 8:59:10 AM)

I run across the non-thinkers far too often, and unfortunately, they have brains in other arenas!  (obviously, or I wouldn't have gotten past the first meeting with them....).   I try to make it very clear that I am not anyone's mom, nanny, or second brain.   Perhaps it's some kind of notion of how they think a submissive should behave?

Pointing out the flaws in behavior and getting astonishment or 'tude?  That is just reversion to type, isn't it? [:D]

Blushes, you are a WOMAN, therefore you react to criticism like one.  Because grrrls are better.  <G>

I have a simple test for judging whether a guy is going to work:  I tell him to decide where we are meeting for lunch.  A simple instruction, you would think.  If I get the Oh, whatever YOU want, Mistress! routine, I know not to venture much further.  (oh, and the "correct" answer would be to either name a place, or ask me what kind of cuisine I like....)



Madame4a -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 9:48:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I have a simple test for judging whether a guy is going to work:  I tell him to decide where we are meeting for lunch.  A simple instruction, you would think.  If I get the Oh, whatever YOU want, Mistress! routine, I know not to venture much further.  (oh, and the "correct" answer would be to either name a place, or ask me what kind of cuisine I like....)


May I use this?  Its wonderful!  I am so sick of making that decision, particularly when no relationship exists, that means we are on equal footing, I hate the assumption that its different...

ask me what area of town works best, and pick a place, damn it!!

I love it!



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 10:10:42 AM)

It seems like a lot of assumptions are being made on all sides- isn't the point of training to be teaching then how/what to react to things you present them with?  Is it wrong to reject someone just because they don't automatically respond perfectly before you know eachother?

I understand not wanting to deal with a certain level of basic training and rejecting someone for not being at a certain level is fine.  But this sounds too much like an unfair test to me.  If someone gave me the cliche answer of "Whatever you want" I'd simply correct them and say "Of course we'll go where I choose, but I told you to pick a place and you need to follow through."

No fuss, no muss.  It can be a big breakthrough for someone.  There's a LOT of bad info and a LOT of pressure for male subs to perform in a certain way.  I think simply dismissing someone so quickly shows a laziness, and will only INCREASE the confusion and frustration in a sub who quite possibly just hasn't had good luck in being around good people with good information. 

And Madame- you hate the lack of equal footing, but making the demand that they pick a place AND rejecting them for not following instructions automatically means you are enforcing an authority dynamic.  If you honestly wanted equal footing, you'd work together to agree on a place.



APhacetoSit -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 12:31:34 PM)

i had a thinking problem once, but the frontal lobotomy (or was it the bottle in front of me?) did not stop it, but made me stop worrying about it.



Madame4a -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 12:45:35 PM)

Funny.. you don't know me...how did you decide that? 

I made a statement, a comment... trust me... I do make every effort to work together...



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 12:49:38 PM)

Then you won't use something like that- a test wherein they either submit to what you want without giving any guidance or correction, or you reject them.  That's not working together.



Madame4a -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 1:05:34 PM)

thanks so much for the direction...



LadyHibiscus -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 1:11:05 PM)

Now I did say that I don't work TOO much further, LA.....  I am not into setting a person up to fail, ever.  But my little test really does work for finding out which potentials are a good match for me--if they don't respond to simple directions, and then the kind explanation that they have been GIVEN a simple direction, they are probably not making it past that lunch.  Because yes, we DO still have lunch, even if I have to decide where.  I am tough, not pointlessly mean.



APhacetoSit -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 1:28:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I have a simple test for judging whether a guy is going to work:  I tell him to decide where we are meeting for lunch.  A simple instruction, you would think.  If I get the Oh, whatever YOU want, Mistress! routine, I know not to venture much further.  (oh, and the "correct" answer would be to either name a place, or ask me what kind of cuisine I like....)


"Wherever You would like to go, Ma'am, as long as You are wearing my lunch"  is probably as unacceptable as Taco Bell but for diffent reasons.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 1:56:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
Now I did say that I don't work TOO much further, LA.....  I am not into setting a person up to fail, ever.  But my little test really does work for finding out which potentials are a good match for me--if they don't respond to simple directions, and then the kind explanation that they have been GIVEN a simple direction, they are probably not making it past that lunch.  Because yes, we DO still have lunch, even if I have to decide where.  I am tough, not pointlessly mean.

Thanks for the additional explanation Hibiscus.  I completely understand not wanting to waste time on a brick, and many of them certainly can be. 



APhacetoSit -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 2:00:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
Now I did say that I don't work TOO much further, LA.....  I am not into setting a person up to fail, ever.  But my little test really does work for finding out which potentials are a good match for me--if they don't respond to simple directions, and then the kind explanation that they have been GIVEN a simple direction, they are probably not making it past that lunch.  Because yes, we DO still have lunch, even if I have to decide where.  I am tough, not pointlessly mean.

Thanks for the additional explanation Hibiscus.  I completely understand not wanting to waste time on a brick, and many of them certainly can be. 


But do, by all means, get a good lunch out of it.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/21/2008 2:13:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: APhacetoSit

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
Now I did say that I don't work TOO much further, LA.....  I am not into setting a person up to fail, ever.  But my little test really does work for finding out which potentials are a good match for me--if they don't respond to simple directions, and then the kind explanation that they have been GIVEN a simple direction, they are probably not making it past that lunch.  Because yes, we DO still have lunch, even if I have to decide where.  I am tough, not pointlessly mean.

Thanks for the additional explanation Hibiscus.  I completely understand not wanting to waste time on a brick, and many of them certainly can be. 


But do, by all means, get a good lunch out of it.


oooooh, snarky!!



APhacetoSit -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/22/2008 2:24:42 AM)

[/quote]

But do, by all means, get a good lunch out of it.
[/quote]

oooooh, snarky!!
[/quote]

<----not too bright, and completely unsure as to what "Snarky" means, Ma'am, are You trying to say that perhaps one should not give this TOO much thought.  it can be a hard task and fraught with perils.



MissLily -> RE: The hardest task of all (2/22/2008 4:46:26 AM)

Hi!

I SO know what you mean! On My part, I interpret it more as being the result of a fragile ego and fantasy seeking.

I find that most people, not only subs don't like having their mistakes pointed out to them. They feel it as a jugement on their self. They feel diminished and find out they might not like that after all. I mean, in real life, you can't always please everybody, but we seem to live in a world where we must (I don't mean you can be rude or assholeholic, but it's impossible to please everybody all the time, right?).

An other thing that I think happens is that their fantasy falls appart. I find that many people seek a fantasy, and in their fantasy, they manage to submit easely. Well, I don't think submitting is that easy. They make a blunder, realise they're not perfect and oups, the fantasy goes down the crap chute.

Not only that, but the Domina turns out to be human after all. You're no longer an idea, but a real person. Some don't seem to like that very much...

Just a thought,
Miss Lily



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