RE: This is what you want...

RE: This is what you want... (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:04:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: scifi1133 And as in the case of the sheriffs.....boot them out of office if you think they arent doing what they are supposed to do. By all means please take an active roll in working with your local departments to make things better for you and for us. I'm not a citizen in this country, so I can take little action in public affairs. How do you reconcile the workings of local politics with fairness in justice? In short: should sheriffs be elected locally? And should they be elected at all, rather than appointed?

Alumbrado -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:06:01 AM)
quote: When the community and the police force work together change does happen, and its always for the better. Which would mean that the media would have to find something else to sensationalize.

LaTigresse -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:06:47 AM)
Here in Iowa they are elected. I assumed that was the case nationwide. I actually like that they are elected and held accountable.

kittinSol -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:07:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: When the community and the police force work together change does happen, and its always for the better. Which would mean that the media would have to find something else to sensationalize. Yet, it's easy to say the media sensationalizes when it does its job in reporting events.

scifi1133 -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:08:17 AM)
There are sheriffs out there who are elected and do an outstanding job. they keep their jobs for a long time. There are sheriffs out there who do a shitty job and they also keep their jobs for a long time. I dont know which would work better. The police cheif in my department has been an appointee and we have had good ones and bad ones......In the case of an election process we might have been able to get rid of him faster. So there are arguements on both sides of that.

kittinSol -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:08:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Here in Iowa they are elected. I assumed that was the case nationwide. I actually like that they are elected and held accountable. I see your point about accountability, but do you see how local electioneering could land crooks in office (just as it does in higher office - see the Whitehouse disaster)? And do you see how local crooks have a far more direct effect on individuals?

scifi1133 -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:12:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: When the community and the police force work together change does happen, and its always for the better. Which would mean that the media would have to find something else to sensationalize. Yet, it's easy to say the media sensationalizes when it does its job in reporting events. This is an age old arguemant also. Its the job of the media to report. I have no problem with that. But we also all no that without ratings people lose their jobs. Good news does not get ratings. So its very easy to see why only the bad( and not just police but anything) gets reported. Now thats not to say that corruption and scandal shouldnt be reported. But the occasional good report would be nice. No one reports on the cops who get hurt trying to protect someone. That just doesnt sell. So all anyone seems to hear is bad things and it does slant the way people look at ALL cops.

celticlord2112 -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:13:04 AM)
quote: CelticLord, their calmness suggests that it is a procedure that's as familiar as it is well-practised. That, in itself, does not imply a blase attitude, or callousness in action. When brutalizing a human being is familiar and well-practiced, callousness is precisely what is in action.

scifi1133 -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:14:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Here in Iowa they are elected. I assumed that was the case nationwide. I actually like that they are elected and held accountable. I see your point about accountability, but do you see how local electioneering could land crooks in office (just as it does in higher office - see the Whitehouse disaster)? And do you see how local crooks have a far more direct effect on individuals? Yes it does. Look sheriffs are polititions and we all know what politions are.But the get appointed to an office you also need to grease the polititions wheels....either way politics plays a major part. At least with elections your can get rid of the crook in 2 years.

scifi1133 -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:16:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: CelticLord, their calmness suggests that it is a procedure that's as familiar as it is well-practised. That, in itself, does not imply a blase attitude, or callousness in action. When brutalizing a human being is familiar and well-practiced, callousness is precisely what is in action. Your right, of course brutalizing people is what I go out and do everynight. I feel I must practice so when I get on camera doing it I look well rehearsed.

LaTigresse -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:20:43 AM)
Of course. And there are countless cases where this has happened. Ultimately it is up to the citizens to take their community back or lay down and allow a few bad apples (crooked politicians) to ruin their home. Personally, again, I see it as a matter of taking responsibility. If you have 10 people at the one end of rope and one fat dude at the other end, who is going to win a tug of war? It should be obvious but all too often it doesn't quite play out that way. The 10 people start griping that the fat dude's brother probably manufactured the rope so it is fixed. Another guy complains that his hands sweat too much so he cannot pull and should be exempt. Some woman starts snarking about the smell of the mud in the pit and how it is wafting into her perfect suburban house. They start arguing that 6 of the 10 are not pulling their weight 100%, someone steps on someone elses foot, they sue, they take sides and before you know it, fat dude has slowly tugged that rope all over on his side right under their nose. THEN, the ten people stop nitpicking at one another long enough to whine and bitch about how unfair it was and feel sorry for themselves, until they start placing blame and squabbling again. Fat dude still has all the rope because the 10 people couldn't step up and take responsibility long enough to work towards a common goal. Not because he was more powerful, just they were so pitifully weak by their own doing.

MissMorrigan -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:22:43 AM)
CL, you, nor I, are privy to the events prior to the clip showing that woman on the ground being stripped. We have no idea what went on, what led to it and b/c it seems brutal, doesn't necessarily mean it was. People tend not to behave compliantly when they feel an injustice has occurred, or they're tanked up on alcohol. When someone has been in an altercation with another, their adrenalin is pumping and more often than not, aren't thinking coherently, but behaving according to their high emotional status at that time. I'm not for a moment suggesting that the police officers behaved correctly, nor am I stating they haven't. I can formulate, however, that we are not subject to all of the details of what took place and until we are, we're basing our assumptions on scant/biased accounts supported with video evidence which has large parts of it missing.

kittinSol -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:23:58 AM)
How do we prevent this sort of thing from happening so frequently (I'm adamant that cases such as this are far more widespread than is reported). quote: The problem is national: no police department in the country is known to be completely free of misconduct. Yet it must be fought locally: the nation's 19,000 law enforcement agencies are essentially independent. While some federal statutes specify criminal penalties for willful violations of civil rights and conspiracies to violate civil rights, the United States Department of Justice has been insufficiently aggressive in prosecuting cases of police abuse. There are shortcomings, too, in federal law itself, which does not permit "pattern and practice" lawsuits. The battle against police abuse must, therefore, be fought primarily on the local level. http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14614pub19971201.html

celticlord2112 -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:24:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: scifi1133 quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: CelticLord, their calmness suggests that it is a procedure that's as familiar as it is well-practised. That, in itself, does not imply a blase attitude, or callousness in action. When brutalizing a human being is familiar and well-practiced, callousness is precisely what is in action. Your right, of course brutalizing people is what I go out and do everynight. I feel I must practice so when I get on camera doing it I look well rehearsed. Do you seriously mean to tell me that what is on that video is not brutality? That those officers are not in fact raping that woman? I grant there is no evidence of sexual penetration, but she was terrorized, humiliated, and handled in a degrading fashion--it is an assault of the foulest kind. I do not know what acts you perform on any night. If you say you brutalize people, then I will take you at your word. If you choose to align yourself with the evil displayed in that video, that is your choice. But I will not mince words. What is on that video is evil. It sickens and it disgusts. Those officers assaulted that woman, and rightfully should be in that jail as tenants rather than custodians.

Alumbrado -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:26:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: When the community and the police force work together change does happen, and its always for the better. Which would mean that the media would have to find something else to sensationalize. Yet, it's easy to say the media sensationalizes when it does its job in reporting events. Is it the 'job' of the media to report controvesy where there is none? Why would you not want people to take Sci's suggestion and work for better police community relations? And speaking of which, how many hours have you logged in helping my friends over at policeabuse.org, after the multiple times I've posted their link?

LaTigresse -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:26:49 AM)
kittin, I am a fervid believer that WE don't stop it. The community in which the rotten apples serve needs to band together as a COMMUNITY and take control back. There is just way too much apathy and, someone else can deal with it, in this country. We are lazy! We want someone else to do the hard stuff for us.

celticlord2112 -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:29:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan CL, you, nor I, are privy to the events prior to the clip showing that woman on the ground being stripped. We have no idea what went on, what led to it and b/c it seems brutal, doesn't necessarily mean it was. People tend not to behave compliantly when they feel an injustice has occurred, or they're tanked up on alcohol. When someone has been in an altercation with another, their adrenalin is pumping and more often than not, aren't thinking coherently, but behaving according to their high emotional status at that time. I'm not for a moment suggesting that the police officers behaved correctly, nor am I stating they haven't. I can formulate, however, that we are not subject to all of the details of what took place and until we are, we're basing our assumptions on scant/biased accounts supported with video evidence which has large parts of it missing. Whether they had just cause to detain or restrain is problematic, I grant you. Stripping a woman naked when she is handcuffed and howling in sheer terror has no justification. Certain acts are morally repugnant in and of themselves. That video displays one such act.

scifi1133 -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:31:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: ORIGINAL: scifi1133 quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: CelticLord, their calmness suggests that it is a procedure that's as familiar as it is well-practised. That, in itself, does not imply a blase attitude, or callousness in action. When brutalizing a human being is familiar and well-practiced, callousness is precisely what is in action. Your right, of course brutalizing people is what I go out and do everynight. I feel I must practice so when I get on camera doing it I look well rehearsed. Do you seriously mean to tell me that what is on that video is not brutality? That those officers are not in fact raping that woman? I grant there is no evidence of sexual penetration, but she was terrorized, humiliated, and handled in a degrading fashion--it is an assault of the foulest kind. I do not know what acts you perform on any night. If you say you brutalize people, then I will take you at your word. If you choose to align yourself with the evil displayed in that video, that is your choice. But I will not mince words. What is on that video is evil. It sickens and it disgusts. Those officers assaulted that woman, and rightfully should be in that jail as tenants rather than custodians. I at no point aligned myself with the officers on that video, YOU did that. And as I have stated more than once. You do not know the reasons behind what they were doing and much of that video is missing. I can not anymore than YOU can say, what did or did not happen there.

kittinSol -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:33:10 AM)
Better 'police community relations': great idea. I don't deny scifi's points: I'm pushing for an answer on my question "how do we prevent this sort of thing". No controversy? I think it's us who decide whether there is a controversy or not. And in this case, there obviously is: three pages later, I am convinced of it. quote: ORIGINAL Alumbrado And speaking of which, how many hours have you logged in helping my friends over at policeabuse.org, after the multiple times I've posted their link? I'd be more than happy to assist, should you need any help. I'm a terribly fast typist.

MissMorrigan -> RE: This is what you want... (2/12/2008 9:39:03 AM)
The male officers present and aiding in the removal of this woman's clothes is in question, the Sheriff stated that they acted in accordance with that state's regulations concerning 'inmates'. So that suggests that she had clearly committed some kind of offence to warrant the change in her status from that of victim. That does NOT excuse her being manhandled, but it begs the questions: If it is considered brutal and in direct conflict with the regulations concerning the handling of female inmates by male police officers, why is the Sheriff supporting this behaviour, CL? Her howling is incidental, having worked in the mental health sector for years I have heard similar reactions from people who felt they were being unjustly treated, even though the nurses were simply doing their jobs and preventing those patients from either harming themselves, or other people. To the onlooker, the nurses restraining them would have appeared brutal. Also, have you seen just how forceful a woman can be when she is committed in preventing people from a particular course of action? The same can be said of a man behaving antisocially and resisting arrest by two female police officers... If the man was adamant he wasn't going to 'go quietly', it's unlikely the female officers would ensure that unless they used brutal force.

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