RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (Full Version)

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philosophy -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 10:40:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Woman  drinks, likes her male partner. lets that be known, indulges in heavy intimate sexual activity and then suddenly says NO this is too much


...ok, not inconceivable chain of events.....

quote:

by which time the male who is programmed for this remember


.....he is also programmed, as you put it, for many other things. despite what was suggested in 'The Selfish Gene' humans are not just breeding machines. History is, essentially, the story of how we have added what freud calls the super ego to the way we behave, see others and build societies.

quote:

dont blame me thats how things are, is simply beside himself with unrequieted lust


....aww, poor baby has a woody. Gosh.

quote:

cant stop and effs her.


....no, can stop but doesn't want to.....just like a small child.

quote:

What should the legal system do in your opinon.?
Pander to the mob or try to impose some sensible sanction?


....obviously not pander to the mob, that is the part of the human psyche that is atavistic, violent, utterly consumed by its own needs and oblivious to other realities.
The sensible sanction is, of course, to call rape rape and not to provide selfish individuals with any excuse for inexcusable acts.




LadyEllen -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 10:46:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

i've read nearly the entire thread and somehow people seem to have rape confused with sex.  Rape has nothing whatsoever to do with sexual desire and everything to do with anger.



Albeit I wasnt raped, the sexual assault I experienced last year was motivated by anger - anger at women in general, and I was just unlucky enough to be a suitable representative of women at the time it boiled over. And also an ideal victim in my opinion - there's a thread about it way back on here.

But is every rape and sexual assault about anger? I'm not so sure. Even in my case I can see it as an admixture of frustrated desire and rage at being denied, of a struggle to assert male identity against a backdrop of female control in the form of mother, older sister, lovers that he felt emasculated him. A motivation fuelled by rage against the perceived injustice of it all but exercised in the shape of his desires; he could after all, have just beaten me up.

E



philosophy -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 10:48:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Extreme states of sexual arousal IMO can cause (Seeks wrote 'a' in this place, for my purposes please replace with 'the occasional') male to temporarily revert to his most primitive natural state.
I need I have I take. Please dont shoot the messenger.




(note my above change)

...........this is true. We call that small minority of men rapists. That is what they are.
The situation you describe is basically a sort of temporary sociopathy. If it happens once it can happen again.  The most lenient way someone as you describe ought to be treated is as a mentally ill criminal.



MissMorrigan -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 11:00:54 AM)

I'm glad you picked up on this, I was going to write a comment earlier although I'm still nursing a banging headache. If I make no sense - usually the case (muahaha) - I apologise in advance!

I think it a common misconception that all rapes are committed by misogynistic males, while some clearly are, that isn't the case for all rapes and I think that's one of the stereotypes that does neither gender any favours in that respect. While stats show that 99% (I think that's right, but please correct me if that isn't the case) of rapes are committed by men, there clearly are various degrees and factors involved. I gave a classic example in one of my earlier posts regarding a person who behaved according to the role models that raised him and the environment he grew up in. He had no comprehension that his behaviour was in any way wrong. I am sure he is not a lone case.
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
But is every rape and sexual assault about anger? I'm not so sure. Even in my case I can see it as an admixture of frustrated desire and rage at being denied, of a struggle to assert male identity against a backdrop of female control in the form of mother, older sister, lovers that he felt emasculated him. A motivation fuelled by rage against the perceived injustice of it all but exercised in the shape of his desires; he could after all, have just beaten me up.



Kalista07 -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 11:42:11 AM)

Okay, so i've made it through the entire 8 pages of this insane thread.... And i've struggled (internally) not to take the attitudes of some of the posters personally.  Apparently Seeks, You are not alone in Your thinking... And surprisingly enough, there are still law enforcement officials who agree with You... Last June i was brutally raped, beaten, and some other unspeakable things had been done to me... i telephoned the police only because i didn't know how i was going to get out of his apartment. he had taken my shirt and bra away and after a few more unspeakable things, "placed" me in the shower.. After much consideration (death or pride?) i decided to call the police from the shower...i had NO intentions of telling them i was raped!! i had NO intentions of making a formal rape charge!!! i had NO intentions of him going to jail that night.... The reality was that when the police got there and knocked down the door (because he wouldn't open it) they knew him by first name... Apparently they had been there before, and when i had to tell them exactly what happened and they asked if anyone else was present and i had to shamefully admit that during the first time his girlfriend (slave) was there i thought i would die.......
Then the detective in charge came onto the scene. He treated me worse than i'm convinced any rapist, child molester, or serial killer has been treated in that community...He degraded me because of my age and education and point blank told me multiple times, "look...if this was just somthing kinky gone bad you need to tell us now so we can stop wasting our time" as well as "if you said yes to any of this, you need to understand that negates your ability to change your mind or cry rape later on"...At one point i remember him asking me if i had enjoyed it.... They didn't send me to the hospital for a rape kit....They infact told me that if i decided to persue rape charges i would be made to look and feel like a "slut" in public. And that everyone would know my entire sexual history as well as all of my activities online........
Now Seeks, before you go any further i must tell you of course, that i never 'pretended' to enjoy any of this...i think that my crying, sobbing, begging him to stop, should've all been indicators for him that i was not enjoying this, but apparently i was wrong...

i know people think we have come such a long way with the way we treat victims, but have we? i mean have we really?? The fact that the only charge this man faced was interference with official acts (despite many other obvious charges such as possesion of drug paraphenaila, etc) is just one of the many sad things in this case....But Seeks according to Your line of thinking because he was not a stranger to me it could not have been rape, right? hmmmm...
Well, as i've told the attorney who was helping me, the police, and the DA in that community, i will still be here when his rape activities are increased to murder.........(which i will admit to you that after i learned they weren't going to press charges, i struggled with not going back there and allowing him to kill me so that i could show them all i was right)

Sorry if this post is long and pointless.....
Kali



seeksfemslave -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 11:57:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
I would still like a response on this post Seeks - I'm sure it was missed, and not studiously overlooked?
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
I've read all your contributions Seeks, but I still dont get what you mean.
If we assumed that there was a "point of no return" for a man, then it would have to be a second or so prior to ejaculation. Unless we're talking about guys with premature ejaculation problems, then guys can stop at any point prior to this surely? And I would fancy that anyone they are having sex with would have made clear well before that "point of no return" that they wanted him to stop.
So I really cant see how your argument - as I understand it - stands up (forgive the unintended pun). Any man who is so bereft of self control that he cannot control his arousal and cannot stop himself is at best a disappointment to his partner and likely a danger to society.
E

No specific response maybe but I think I have made my attitude quite clear.
Someone, Honosoku I think pointed  exceptions  may apply in Law when high emotional arousal is considered.

For example were this thread about women who murder their unfaithful lovers I would be willing to bet that most posters who point out that self control is all, a rape is rape is rape would take a contrary view and tell me about special deep rooted female attitude to her family,women can temporally become of unsound mind and need help and support. NO?

I am firmly convinced that my basic argument is correct
Man rapes a woman. unknown to him..throw the book at him
Man uses extreme violence to get sex from a partner who is unwilling  Ditto

Man Woman are engaged  in consensual intimate sexual activity almost and possibly including penetration and for reasons that I cant fathom she suddenly says "No no more"  some men will be already past the tipping point and will carry on. This is reported so in that respect I am right. One poster here has admitted she has behaved in that way.
Is the man not to be given some consideration.? I say Yes.



CrimsonMoan -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 12:01:23 PM)

Kali it was anything but pointless and your post just points out the problem with the system and more so with how the world views what we do. if you said yes to one thing then you can't say no to another? BULLSHIT at its best and worst. The minute things go south and you say no and stop male or female then your partner should respect that and stop. The minute you say no stop etc its game over. And when the law makes you feel less than a human, a slut a whore for being into what we are and making you feel liek you had it coming it is nothing more than a second rape, this time but those who are supposed to help you.



sublibrarian -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 1:04:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07
i know people think we have come such a long way with the way we treat victims, but have we? i mean have we really??


I personally believe that rape is still condoned in our society. As for the women who cry rape when none happened - considering how shitty raped women are treated by the system and society, do you really think many of them are lying? I've been raped and I've been sexually assaulted with a speculum and I didn't report either because I knew the outcome would not be worth it. (I called the police about the assault and was told that if they couldn't prove he had done it then they wouldn't even prosecute. He was the host of the sex party so no one was supportive of my side (no one wanted to be uninvited) even though there were people there who heard me tell him to take the speculum out because it was hurting me and saw him shake his head no and keep right on hurting me. And hell, I was at a sex party in the first place so who would believe that I withdrew consent for what he was doing. Yup, I'm a slut so I must've deserved it.) It took me over two years to get back to enjoying sex properly. The rape (10 years ago) and the assault still affect my sense of safety and have permanently changed who I am and my relationship to sex. It's easy to say the man couldn't help himself when you've never dealt with the effects of having been non-consensually sexually assaulted or raped. You can't imagine the pervasive effects that can pop up at odd times - like when you're in bed with someone else. Rape and assault cause deep psychological damage. It's about time we stopped letting the men who do it get away with it. This is not just about women's safety, it's about having a healthy society where people aren't walking around all messed in the head because it's so damn common to be assaulted or raped if you're a woman. (And yes, it happens to men too. It's sad that it happens to anyone.)



Alumbrado -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 1:12:22 PM)

quote:

know people think we have come such a long way with the way we treat victims, but have we? i mean have we really??


Given that what you describe used to be the standard, and now it should be the exception, we have certainly come some way from the past.



luckydog1 -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 1:28:47 PM)

Thts terrible sublibrarian.  But this stuck out at me.  "(I called the police about the assault and was told that if they couldn't prove he had done it then they wouldn't even prosecute. "   Its a terrible situation, but in America, if they can't proove you are guity, you are innoccent.  We al like that, right?  But it does leave justice undone at times.  It sounds like the Police did investigate, and no would say it was an assualt.  Which is terrible, but a possible reason as well as wanting to keep going to the play parties, is that if they testified they would get dragged into court to testify under oath about what happens at the sex parties they attend. 



sublibrarian -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 2:11:41 PM)

Luckydog, I didn't pursue charges because I felt like the odds were stacked against me so there was no investigation. (And yes, you're right that it's best we're all innocent until proven guilty. But sometimes it's not so easy to prove guilt even when it's there, sadly. If people cooperate with the guilty one instead of standing up for what's right, which is what happened my case, then it leaves the victim feeling all the more helpless and victimized.)



Woodburn -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 2:18:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan
I think it a common misconception that all rapes are committed by misogynistic males, while some clearly are, that isn't the case for all rapes and I think that's one of the stereotypes that does neither gender any favours in that respect. While stats show that 99% (I think that's right, but please correct me if that isn't the case) of rapes are committed by men, there clearly are various degrees and factors involved. I gave a classic example in one of my earlier posts regarding a person who behaved according to the role models that raised him and the environment he grew up in. He had no comprehension that his behaviour was in any way wrong. I am sure he is not a lone case.


Many suspect that the numbers  for female-on-male rape are so lopsided because they rely on reported or convicted cases. Data on female perpetration is nearly impossible to find. This partly due to that until fairly recently, many believed that a woman was incapable of sexual assault, much less rape. The only data I could find has a wide margin of error and was focused on sexual abuse towards UMs. Averaging out the error, and you get ~12% of cases perpetrated by women across both genders. Several factors to consider;

1: Culturally, there is still a lot of programming against a woman being sexually aggressive. As this fades, female-male rape incidents will rise.

2: There is a strong stigma against men being the victim of a crime, especially a sexually related one.

3: Men on average have been conditioned to be more assertive. Thusly, they are more likely to resist more noticeably and resist longer. Most men have the physical strength to remove any unwanted female.

Overall, men have better tools to resist and a lot of incentive not to report. Some additional reading I was able to find (page 16 of the document). I doubt women are any less psychologically capable of rape than men. Just that the physical and cultural conditions minimize the occurence and reporting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07
Okay, so i've made it through the entire 8 pages of this insane thread....


This is another communication issue. When men and women talk about rape, they tend to start from two different vantage points. Women tend to start by considering a bad case and assuming that is what all rape is. Men tend to start from the vantage point of "what is the bare minimum that could be considered rape?". While I don't buy the "tipping point" concept, I do think that for many, sufficient arousal will impair judgment.




MissMorrigan -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 3:15:06 PM)

Thank you for your post, Woodburn. The reason you'll find stats impossible to find for female/male rape is b/c legally, a woman is incapable of raping a male based upon the legal criteria for rape - ie penetrative sex. At most, it is a serious sexual assault should the woman use an object (dildo or other such item) to simulate copulation. My partner and I were discussing this earlier, he has disagreed with me and morally feels that a woman is just as capable of rape as that of a man - how? There's no actual penis involved, if a man used an object on a woman/other man instead of his penis, again it would be a serious sexual assault and not actual rape, he has to have used his penis for this to occur. If there are any legal eagles reading this thread please do correct me if I am wrong. Morally speaking, however, I am sure those victims would not make such a distinction, and rightly so, and would feel no less violated.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Woodburn
Many suspect that the numbers  for female-on-male rape are so lopsided because they rely on reported or convicted cases. Data on female perpetration is nearly impossible to find. This partly due to that until fairly recently, many believed that a woman was incapable of sexual assault, much less rape. The only data I could find has a wide margin of error and was focused on sexual abuse towards UMs. Averaging out the error, and you get ~12% of cases perpetrated by women across both genders. Several factors to consider;


I have been searching online for the study released in the UK regarding male/male rape, and as yet, have been unsuccessful in finding the study I am seeking. Approx. ten years ago a study was released regarding male/male rape. The study suggested that men are actually LESS likely to resist than it is perceived and while present stats show a low number in male/male rapes, the number is considered to be greatly higher. The study was released some time after a spate of attacks that took place on males late at night while travelling home on the railway/tube systems in the UK - of those that did come forward, very little violence was involved and that was mainly due to the threat for their safety. There is a huge stigma attached to victims of rape given society's attitude in allocating blame on the victims - still, victims are made to feel as if their actions somehow initiated the attack.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Woodburn
3: Men on average have been conditioned to be more assertive. Thusly, they are more likely to resist more noticeably and resist longer. Most men have the physical strength to remove any unwanted female.

Overall, men have better tools to resist and a lot of incentive not to report. Some additional reading I was able to find (page 16 of the document). I doubt women are any less psychologically capable of rape than men. Just that the physical and cultural conditions minimize the occurence and reporting.



Politesub53 -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 4:04:51 PM)

Miss Morrigan, oddly enough one of the attacks you mentioned involved a guy who claimed he had been marched of the tube at knife point by two men, taken to Hampstead Heath and raped.... Turns out he had gone cruising, had sex and didnt want his fiance to find out.



Honsoku -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 4:13:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Thank you for your post, Woodburn. The reason you'll find stats impossible to find for female/male rape is b/c legally, a woman is incapable of raping a male based upon the legal criteria for rape - ie penetrative sex. At most, it is a serious sexual assault should the woman use an object (dildo or other such item) to simulate copulation. My partner and I were discussing this earlier, he has disagreed with me and morally feels that a woman is just as capable of rape as that of a man - how? There's no actual penis involved, if a man used an object on a woman/other man instead of his penis, again it would be a serious sexual assault and not actual rape, he has to have used his penis for this to occur. If there are any legal eagles reading this thread please do correct me if I am wrong. Morally speaking, however, I am sure those victims would not make such a distinction, and rightly so, and would feel no less violated.


This is based off another myth about male sexuality. A man does not have to be willing to be physically aroused. Stimulation of the prostate will bring about an erection regardless of willingness. Physical sexual response can occur without desire, regardless of gender. So a man can be forced into penetrative sex with a woman, though it can be a bit more difficult to do so. Consider that the fight/flight endorphin rush will heighten sexual responsiveness. The other thing to consider is that not all rape is forced from beginning to end. The situation that Seeks was talking about, is exactly that.

It is true that rape laws are very gender biased, as many require the person to be penetrated to be raped. In Oklahoma:
quote:

§21-1111.  Rape defined.
"A.  Rape is an act of sexual intercourse involving vaginal or anal penetration accomplished with a male or female who is not the spouse of the perpetrator and who may be of the same or the opposite sex as the perpetrator under any of the following circumstances:"
This could be argued either way. The spirit of the law is that the person being penetrated is raped. This also means that oral sex can not be rape in Oklahoma (I think this is the case in most states).

The state of Oklahoma does not distingush by what is used to penetrate.

quote:

§21‑1111.1.  Rape by instrumentation. Rape by instrumentation is an act within or without the bonds of matrimony in which any inanimate object or any part of the human body, not amounting to sexual intercourse is used in the carnal knowledge of another person without his or her consent and penetration of the anus or vagina occurs to that person.  Provided, further, that at least one of the circumstances specified in Section 1111 of this title has been met.


Gerbil stuffers delight, it isn't rape if the object is alive and not part of the human body.



MissMorrigan -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 4:16:00 PM)

Polite, I don't actually recall the details of that one. The one I DO remember specifically was of an art student that was raped on the tube (he was one of several guys that had apparently been raped over a period) last one night.

As for the guy that was taken to Hampstead Heath and supposedly raped, if it was consensual, why did he feel the need to conjure such an elaborate story for his fiance, he could just have easily have said nothing at all... was he caught 'in the act', so to speak and concocated that story incase she got wind of that night's events from the police?



Politesub53 -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 4:25:55 PM)

Miss Morrigan, i seem to recall he had gone there from having a few drinks after work. Im guessing he panicked after it happened. The reason it sticks in my mind is that it caused a massive outcry in the media.



Owner59 -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 4:31:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Thank you for your post, Woodburn. The reason you'll find stats impossible to find for female/male rape is b/c legally, a woman is incapable of raping a male based upon the legal criteria for rape - ie penetrative sex. At most, it is a serious sexual assault should the woman use an object (dildo or other such item) to simulate copulation. My partner and I were discussing this earlier, he has disagreed with me and morally feels that a woman is just as capable of rape as that of a man - how? There's no actual penis involved, if a man used an object on a woman/other man instead of his penis, again it would be a serious sexual assault and not actual rape, he has to have used his penis for this to occur. If there are any legal eagles reading this thread please do correct me if I am wrong. Morally speaking, however, I am sure those victims would not make such a distinction, and rightly so, and would feel no less violated.


This is based off another myth about male sexuality. A man does not have to be willing to be physically aroused. Stimulation of the prostate will bring about an erection regardless of willingness. Physical sexual response can occur without desire, regardless of gender. So a man can be forced into penetrative sex with a woman, though it is a bit more difficult to do so. The other thing to consider is that not all rape is forced from beginning to end. The situation that Seeks was talking about, is exactly that.

It is true that rape laws are very gender biased, as many require the person to be penetrated to be raped. In Oklahoma:
quote:

§21-1111.  Rape defined.
"A.  Rape is an act of sexual intercourse involving vaginal or anal penetration accomplished with a male or female who is not the spouse of the perpetrator and who may be of the same or the opposite sex as the perpetrator under any of the following circumstances:"
This could be argued either way. The spirit of the law is that the person being penetrated is raped. This also means that oral sex can not be rape in Oklahoma (I think this is the case in most states).

The state of Oklahoma does not distingush by what is used to penetrate.

quote:

§21‑1111.1.  Rape by instrumentation. Rape by instrumentation is an act within or without the bonds of matrimony in which any inanimate object or any part of the human body, not amounting to sexual intercourse is used in the carnal knowledge of another person without his or her consent and penetration of the anus or vagina occurs to that person.  Provided, further, that at least one of the circumstances specified in Section 1111 of this title has been met.


Gerbil stuffers delight, it isn't rape if the object is alive and not part of the human body.



Back to reality....

Women raping men is as rare as lunar eclipses.Most if not all male rape is by a man(or men) against another man.(see prison)

And as eyesopened pointed out so well,rape isn`t about sex,it`s about violence and robbery.

It`s stupid to imply that women do these things to men.



MissMorrigan -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 4:32:33 PM)

Honsoku, I'm aware of how the male anatomy works, I've been intimate with quite a few prostates, and I do get your point.

I'm referring specifically to the laws regarding what constitutes penetrative sex. It's interesting that the definitions of rape have been altered to allow for prosecutions in some states in the US. We (the public at large) know that women can be sexually aggressive and there are some cases where women have been convicted of unlawful sexual assault (rape in Oklahoma). I have yet to see a case (in the UK) where a woman was actually convicted of rape and I am unaware of any changes in rape laws in the UK.

Oklahoma is an exception, why do you think that the definition of rape (generally) has been so restrictive?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Honsoku
This is based off another myth about male sexuality. A man does not have to be willing to be physically aroused. Stimulation of the prostate will bring about an erection regardless of willingness. Physical sexual response can occur without desire, regardless of gender. So a man can be forced into penetrative sex with a woman, though it is a bit more difficult to do so. The other thing to consider is that not all rape is forced from beginning to end. The situation that Seeks was talking about, is exactly that.



MissMorrigan -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/17/2008 4:38:11 PM)

I can understand him panicking, but what a pillock to concoct such an elaborate story.

Approx. five years ago I went on a date with a switch. After dinner we decided to go for a nice twilight walk along the promenade (I'm such an old fashioned gal a heart lol) at Worthing. Worthing has the typical beach huts along it, and I noticed that every few minutes a well-dressed middle-classed guy would appear from behind a beach hut and scurry off looking shifty. My date and I held back, not wanting to make our presence known, so we kept observing and approx. 30 minutes later (after the last of the men had left the area) a young guy in his teens came out, shoving a huge wad of chewing gum in his mouth before heading off. It was obvious what had been occuring and I have no doubt those guys headed straight home to their wives. It's such a bloody huge shame that people can't be more honest with their partners and explore their sexualities more honestly, and without the need of risk to their health, or that of their partners.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Miss Morrigan, i seem to recall he had gone there from having a few drinks after work. Im guessing he panicked after it happened. The reason it sticks in my mind is that it caused a massive outcry in the media.



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