RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (Full Version)

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Politesub53 -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 3:47:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Hmm... how do you qualify someone being 'wasted'? If they're over the drink-driving limit? Got a nice buzz going on but still able to make rational decisions? Not able to walk/talk coherently, or even unconscious, perhaps?

If someone in the latter two sobered up to find someone had sexual intercourse with them then it's rape.


Surely someone so wasted they have a problem walking and talking, wont reliably remember what happened ?  In the situation where both parties are drunk, both share the blame.



bipolarber -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 3:50:45 PM)

I'm amazed... Seeks, you really believe that we guys can't stop fucking once we start? That we become unthinking animals? Please...

If a girl were to tell you that something was wrong, things were hurting her, that the thrusts were tearing tissue... you would just keep pumping away like a mindless machine? I sure as hell wouldn't. My concern is for my partner, not my own orgasm. (I can have an orgasm any time... but I can only have nice, recreational, relational sex with a partner, and it behooves me to keep them happy, as much as myself.

As long as we're talking about if/when to stop, then when your partner says "No" is a perfectly good time to do so. Being respectful of "no" is what differentiates us from rapists, after all. I know a lot of BDSM people poo poo "SSC" these days, but the core concept remains sound.



MissMorrigan -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 3:51:37 PM)

I did answer, Seeks. As far as pandering to the mob is concerned, is that what you refer to as a democratic ruling?

I've tried every which way to see things from your perspective. I've discussed this subject previously with a lot of men and none of those persons with whom I have spoken (not recently, I have to say, but seriously doubt any of those would have changed their opinions) has shared your views that they were somehow rendered 'incapable' of controlling themselves during the height of sexual stimulation. "Man, I'd be pissed"..."She won't be getting a second date"... "Fuck, that's gotta be rough"... none of which translates to, "Who gives a shit about what you want, I'm getting mine." And that really is what it boils down to, arrogant selfish intent masquerading as biological hormonal wiring. Thank goodness we have a 'mob', as you so eloquently put it.



DesertRat -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 3:55:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Stopped mid intercourse ?
Male says Oh how lovely I must rationalise this.
Were I  a Judge and this scenario came before me I would send you to prison.  


Fortunately, you're not a judge. I agree with laurell3. Get some help before you go out and actually try to interact with a woman. You sound like a future perp.

Bob



seeksfemslave -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:00:04 PM)

You wimmen are reducing this thread to a farce.
Lets discuss the real world of sexuality  if you please.



Alumbrado -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:03:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Well Annabelle the first question I must ask you is this: have you ever  engaged in intimate sexual activity with male, and I mean really intimate, and then suddenly changed the subject ?

I am not prying for salacious details I am simply trying to establish the background.
Men and young men in particular are hormonally driven in a way that  women simply cant grasp. Thats what I think.


Changed the subject to something like 'Stop, I'm having a heart attack'? 

You are seriously advocating that a normal man can be in a mental state such that he would keep going no matter what? Withdrawal of consent, death of partner, husband with gun bursting through the door?

If he stops for the last two and not the first, it isn't uncontrollable, it is a choice to keep going after hearing 'No'.



laurell3 -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:04:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Laurell my sweet a man saying NO in the heat of the moment I arsk ya'.
Please be sensible. I could not arsk for a better example of my claim than females just dont get it than that,
CM I luv ya'. lol


I hate to point this out to you yet again but yes, most men I've met (and there have been a few) aren't much at all like you.  You need to leave the pc and meet real people, stop thinking in stereotypes and actually hear what people are saying.  The real world of sexuality is that we are not animals seeks.  All of us, regardless of gender are limited by the consent of another.  Your rights to anything end where she begins and there's no two ways about it.  Honestly, get some help to deal with this, it isn't everyone else, it really is you.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:06:00 PM)

Bipolarber:  you raise a perfectly legitimate point  ie the female suffers some physical distress. Any sensitive male could respond to that and the female could adjust accordingly. 
Unfortunately that is not what is being discussed.



luckydog1 -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:08:49 PM)

Thanks for the comments to my question, Passed out, absolutly rape, prision for a long time.  Also, If she says "no", its rape.  But people can be blind drunk and walking and talking just fine.  Any, Man can stop at anytime.

Here's an out landish one...what is he is deaf, and doing her from behind with consent, and she says no at the last moment, is that rape?



MissMorrigan -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:09:32 PM)

I would imagine a sore vagina/anus and a viscous residue is a dead giveaway, politesub.

As for both parties being drunk, both sharing the blame - being drunk, if you agree, means inability to make formulated decisions, if that's the case, how then does one make the decision to have penetrative sex if the other is incapable of that decision to give consent?



luckydog1 -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:13:20 PM)

If you both choose to enter a state where you can't make rational choices....



MissMorrigan -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:16:01 PM)

Sure, Luckydog, but not making any sense, as in incapable of making formulated decisions based on their state of being inebriated.

As for someone being deaf... hell, blind as well, let's go for the whole range here - if something was wrong and the person (not necessarily a woman), for ANY reason, wanted him to desist, I'm sure they'd find a way. A fist to the solar would work a treat.



Politesub53 -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:25:42 PM)

MissMorrigan, i am only talking of both parties being inebriated here. Not a sober guy taking advantage. My point remains that both parties are responsible. Its impossible to say " i was so drunk i couldnt talk, yet i recall clearly that i didnt give consent "



MissMorrigan -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:29:16 PM)

Drink affects people differently, there are other factors to take into consideration, their body habitat, their typical drinking frequency, quantities consumed, etc... At some point one of the two made the decision to have penetrative sex with the other, the fact the other was incapable of neither giving or denying consent is not consent by default. What am I missing here?




Politesub53 -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:34:29 PM)

Im talking about when neither party is capable of giving consent, the women wakes up and decides its rape. So the guy ends up in jail. Thats not justice as i see it.



MissMorrigan -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:45:33 PM)

But it would be justice if he shot his gun off and killed someone - despite being intoxicated to the point he 'didn't know what he was doing'?

The thing is, how does one ever actually know if the person committing the penetrative act, while under extreme intoxication, actually is intoxicated to that degree. We are still accountable for our actions - the dominant factor in this is the penis, without which a penetrative act (unless an object is used in place of) is impossible. 'Not knowing' is no defence.

There was a case in recent years of a youngish white male (in his teens) committing rapes on young girls. When he was finally caught, it transpires that he has a long history of abuse. He was born into an abusive family, the people entrusted to raise him in a secure and safe environment did anything but and this kid's role models were, in essence, rapists. He basically grew up doing what he was taught. When he was caught he went to a secure unit - indefinitely. It's very unlikely he'll ever be deemed well enough to be habilitated. I can't remember his name, but do remember the outcry at the time, although I found it distasteful to say the least b/c that poor boy clearly had diminished capacity...and that's a darn sight different than deliberately drinking one's self into a stupor and later on claiming 'I didn't know what I was doing, Guv'.



carlie310 -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:53:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Im talking about when neither party is capable of giving consent, the women wakes up and decides its rape. So the guy ends up in jail. Thats not justice as i see it.
This is the situation my friend was in.  They both woke up hungover with post-coital regret.  She told her RA (in college dorm), who got police involved. 



Politesub53 -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 4:55:23 PM)

I think we could butt heads all night on this, even though we agree on every other point. Why is the drunken male any more culpable than the equally drunken female ? You say " Not knowing " isnt a defence. i am saying "not remembering you agreed" is just as bad. The penis isnt the dominant factor if the female consents while drunk and forgets she did so the next day.



sublibrarian -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 5:03:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Bipolarber:  you raise a perfectly legitimate point  ie the female suffers some physical distress. Any sensitive male could respond to that and the female could adjust accordingly. 
Unfortunately that is not what is being discussed.


What if the female suffers emotional distress? What if what's going on triggers trauma from her past and she needs what's going on to stop? Is that any less important than physical distress? Any reasonable male would respond to any sort of distress on the part of his partner.



LadyEllen -> RE: Tennessee Senator "rape just isn’t what it used to be" .What a jerk! (2/16/2008 5:13:16 PM)

I've read all your contributions Seeks, but I still dont get what you mean.

If we assumed that there was a "point of no return" for a man, then it would have to be a second or so prior to ejaculation. Unless we're talking about guys with premature ejaculation problems, then guys can stop at any point prior to this surely? And I would fancy that anyone they are having sex with would have made clear well before that "point of no return" that they wanted him to stop.

So I really cant see how your argument - as I understand it - stands up (forgive the unintended pun). Any man who is so bereft of self control that he cannot control his arousal and cannot stop himself is at best a disappointment to his partner and likely a danger to society.

E



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