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Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 6:51:13 PM

probablyknowme

Posts: 1875
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline

Well, I was talking to a Dominant friend of mine the other day about my search, and we were discussing my tendancy toward gravitating to the more experienced Dominants. As I explained to him, my needs are very much geared to the heavy masochist side, and if someone is inexperienced and trying to play at my prefered level, it would be very easy to do some damage. His point was that if experienced bottoms/subs don't ever play with new Dominants, then how would the new people learn. And he laughingly called me an elitist. That kind of made me feel a little guilty, as one of my passions is education in the community.

My point to this is...are you willing to scene/play/explore a relationship with someone who was not as experienced as you? If not, why? and if you are willing, has anything happened that put a spotlight on that discrepancy?

_____________________________

The human mind is like a TV set. When it goes blank, it's a good idea to turn off the sound.
-Anon.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewcomersOK/

Post #: 1

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 6:52:59 PM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

Not as experienced? Yes. Totally green and still unsure of themselves and their feelings about their place in the lifestyle? No.

Having a preference that is more likely to achieve the results you desire is not elitist, it is realistic.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to probablyknowme)

Post #: 2

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 6:55:49 PM

Shawn1066

Posts: 987
Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline

Would I explore a relationship if I was hypothetically single and hypothetically full of experience with somebody who wasn't? Yes. But I'd be prepared to take a bit of a teaching role with the new Dominant. Which I don't think is unheard of. Would I randomly play with somebody with little-to-no experience? No. I wouldn't randomly play with anybody regardless of experience level.

My Owner gave me a chance even though I was white as snow when I met her, in every sense of the word. Of course, there is a much greater risk for a heavy masochist to put his/her life into the hands of a clueless sadist. So, I do see your point of view.

DV's Fox

(in reply to probablyknowme)

Post #: 3

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 7:01:28 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

There is nothing wrong with having high standards for yourself. I am selective about the coffee I drink, the food I eat, the wine I consume, the friends I have...why would I not be selective about the person I submit to?

"Elitist" is a word people throw around when trying to insult your choices or opinions that differ from their own. People don't seem to like when others' standards are higher than theirs.

I'll agree with what Laurell said.

(in reply to probablyknowme)

Post #: 4

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 7:03:30 PM

batshalom

Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline

I'm more service-oriented than anything, so a Dom's lack of experience wouldn't big as big a deal for me as it would for someone who liked impact or edge play. If he is willing to be mentored, and if he will listen and try to learn from me and from others, I have no problem with newbies and men who are not as experienced as I.

(in reply to Shawn1066)

Post #: 5

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 7:07:58 PM

lusciouslips19

Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline

Well, I have gravitated toward the more experienced myself for the same reason. I have been hurt in play more than once by those not knowing what they were doing. So I learned the hard way. Is my Dominant more experienced than me? Yes and no. He had had one sub for less than 4 weeks and then a few brief encounters But he knew it was part of who he was.. However he had spent 10 years in the military plus had an interest in knot tieing. He also searched out info and became very knowlegable between the right way to do things and the wrong way to do things. He also tread slowly with me taking things slow as to figure me and my responses out and how far he could go. I have never felt anything but in good, capable and commanding hands.

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to Shawn1066)

Post #: 6

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 7:08:26 PM

mstrj69

Posts: 295
Joined: 5/27/2004
Status: offline

I am willing to scene/play/explore a relationship with someone who does not have as much experience as I do. I like them to come close to my level but sometimes they can have more experience in their preferred play and I have more in mine. I also believe that anytime I start out with someone new, my experience means nothing as we both have to get to know one another and one another's abilities first.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 7

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 7:21:58 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: probablyknowme

My point to this is...are you willing to scene/play/explore a relationship with someone who was not as experienced as you? If not, why? and if you are willing, has anything happened that put a spotlight on that discrepancy?

Yes, very much so actually. I think it's very helpful to have an experienced person acting as bottom when learning a new skill. Provided I think they will listen to me, respect me, people I trust are watching, and I know what I should be feeling and have at least some knowledge of how to help them, I am very willing to let others learn on me. As for exploring relationships, I taught Valyraen a lot of the basics myself (I have found it very useful to know how to do the things I enjoy, even if I don't particularly enjoy doing to them to others so I make an effort to learn) and was his first real introduction to these sorts of things.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 2/17/2008 7:23:31 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to probablyknowme)

Post #: 8

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 7:48:49 PM

Gwynvyd

Posts: 4949
Status: offline

Personaly... In the Domme role I am fine with starting out with a decently or totaly green person to a has decades of experiance person.

If I were bottoming.. I would personaly want someone who could write a novel on BDSM. I am into edge play pretty heavily... and I do not want someone who is unknowledgeable playing around with knives, and my flesh. I am willing to teach folks in general... but not from point A to get to point Z to play on me. If they want a mentor I am more then happy with that. But I want an all together guy for my own play.

Just my own preferance.
I like all of my bits where they are. *smiles*

Gwyn

_____________________________

Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 9

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 7:54:50 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Depends if you're looking for a relationship involving love or just a play situation. Because if you're only interested in the relationship for play/casual then why bother to get into one that guarantees you won't be happy.

If you want love and the rest, then you wait for them to get as far as they're willing to go. And you discuss how to get your needs met while your partner learns and how to handle it if your pain getting needs turns out to be heavier then he'll ever feel comfortable with. Because honestly, love is more important to me than play.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to Gwynvyd)

Post #: 10

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 7:58:34 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

Just my own preferance.
I like all of my bits where they are. *smiles*

Gwyn

While I respect your preferance (I really do), that statement causes me to ask a question: How many bits did you mess up while learning knife play as a domme?

I certainly wouldn't let an inexperienced top do knife play on me without someone who was skilled looking over his shoulder and teaching, but the cold fact is that they have to learn somewhere. That very experienced dominant learned on someone and, while it makes perfect sense to not want to be the person who is being learned on, it seems rather dismissive to assume that an inexperienced person - under good circumstances - is so very dangerous.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Gwynvyd)

Post #: 11

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 8:03:49 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

My point to this is...are you willing to scene/play/explore a relationship with someone who was not as experienced as you? If not, why? and if you are willing, has anything happened that put a spotlight on that discrepancy?

I would have a long term relationship with someone that is completely new to sadism. My only criteria is that the person be suitable for a long term relationship. Are they intelligent? Do they have integrity? Are they kind and compassionate? These things are the most important to me, not how many years a person can claim to weild a whip. I would like to engage in heavy play one day... as in single tails. I am of the opinion that it is not experience in the lifestyle that matters, it is the willingness to learn, the ability to read, go to conferences to understand what a person wants to do that makes a good sadist... not how many years someone claims to have done something. I tend to only be interested in men that endeavor to be good at whatever they try.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to probablyknowme)

Post #: 12

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 8:13:24 PM

WalterRego

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/28/2004
Status: offline

>>If he is willing to be mentored, and if he will listen and try to learn from me and from others<< BatShalom

>>But I'd be prepared to take a bit of a teaching role with the new Dominant.<< Shawn 1066<<

This is very tricky. How does one do that without topping from the bottom, inadvertantly leading/pushing them towards things you like rather than what they might discover they like or sapping the potential Dom/mes authority in your own eyes? I find myself constantly saying, "But please don't do ____ for me, or because You think I might like or want it. Do what You want."

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 13

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 8:26:35 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WalterRego

>>If he is willing to be mentored, and if he will listen and try to learn from me and from others<< BatShalom

>>But I'd be prepared to take a bit of a teaching role with the new Dominant.<< Shawn 1066<<

This is very tricky. How does one do that without topping from the bottom, inadvertantly leading/pushing them towards things you like rather than what they might discover they like or sapping the potential Dom/mes authority in your own eyes? I find myself constantly saying, "But please don't do ____ for me, or because You think I might like or want it. Do what You want."

Hopefully whatever is happening in the relationship is what everyone "likes". He does things for me that I like, and I do not have to top from the bottom to get the things I like. He knows me, knows what I like. We are not of the opinion that just because I like what is happening doesn't mean it isn't submission... I am a sub, not a martyr.

I think the difference is that the dominant doesn't do things he doesn't feel like doing and the dominant does the things he feels like doing. When a dom and a sub are well matched both are fairly much satisfied within the confines of their relationship... win win. I do not see any danger in teaching a new dominant. In fact I think a submissive has to teach every dominant that they submit to. They teach them about what makes them tick because without that knowledge it isn't domination to a good many of us.

I have never felt my Daddy's authority was diminished because he did things that he knew I would like and did things for me... in fact that only makes me want to please him more... just me etc.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to WalterRego)

Post #: 14

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 8:52:13 PM

JerryFrankster

Posts: 188
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline

Sometimes the blind should lead the blind. Sometimes, there's a fine line between educating and indoctrinating.

I've had teachers (in school that is) that knew their subject so well, that they just couldn't teach at the level of that particular class. They probably should have been teaching at Graduate level.

Of course, a really good teacher would be able to teach at any level. I think when someone teaches far below their own personal level, in a way they become the student.

(in reply to probablyknowme)

Post #: 15

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 9:45:18 PM

probablyknowme

Posts: 1875
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline

Gwynvyd

In my local community, it is not unusual for me to be a "teaching bottom," for someone to teach a new dominant a new skill. In that circumstance, it doesn't bother me to bottom for a new Dominant, as there is someone who knows how to do whatever activity that is happening. I have also been a "demo" bottom for several classes. I personally see this as my way of serving the community. But does my commitment to the community go as far as putting myself in a position to potentially be hurt? My safety is not a commodity that I am willing to trade in, thank you very much.

_____________________________

The human mind is like a TV set. When it goes blank, it's a good idea to turn off the sound.
-Anon.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NewcomersOK/

(in reply to WalterRego)

Post #: 16

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 10:32:19 PM

Gwynvyd

Posts: 4949
Status: offline

I have serious knife skills from the kitchen.. so it translated well into the bedroom. I know my way around a knife. If you know how to filet fish and meat running it across flesh with out cutting is pretty easy. Even with cuting it easy. I have seen some public play by some novices that was seriously unsafe.. and unsanitary. ( I am a clean freak) I tend to do a lot of teaching workshops and the like.. so I have no problems with teaching at all. When I see things like that I will go up, and nicely explain about safety and you dont put used wax back into the communial pot *shudders* and stuff like that.

With basic knife play a novice with some minor knife play should be ok. I certainly wouldnt hand them a scapel.

I taught my girl knife skills so she can do knife play. But when it comes to scapels and the like I want them to have a more then basic knowledge. If it comes from me that is fine.. but I want them to have *Lots* of info when it is the really heavy stuff. I dont pick random play partners.. and the ones I play with I tend to have known for years, and have tons of exp. I have a friendship bond with them.. but we arent partners beyond that..

I think every one should be fairly safe and practice safely.. I have taught both from the top and the bottom.

But in edge play.. I think a mentoring situation where they are seriously directed by another ( not blindly giving a bash at it on some unsuspecting bottom) is the best route. This is why I mentor others. So people do not have to play guinea pigs.

I do not want to be the guinea pig either. *smiles* This is why I will mentor or make sure they have a good working knowledge first.

Gwyn

_____________________________

Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 17

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 10:52:26 PM

Gwynvyd

Posts: 4949
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: probablyknowme

Gwynvyd

In my local community, it is not unusual for me to be a "teaching bottom," for someone to teach a new dominant a new skill. In that circumstance, it doesn't bother me to bottom for a new Dominant, as there is someone who knows how to do whatever activity that is happening. I have also been a "demo" bottom for several classes. I personally see this as my way of serving the community. But does my commitment to the community go as far as putting myself in a position to potentially be hurt? My safety is not a commodity that I am willing to trade in, thank you very much.

No.. I never alluded to anything of that sort.. *looks confused* I think when it comes to more then just the basics.. heck even for the basics in some cases if they like... people should have mentors.. someone available to teach them. Unfortuanetly you have a lot of Dom/me types who will not learn from a sub because they think it demisishes thier Domliness. *shrugs* there are pleanty of books and movies and the like.. but it does not prepare, nor encompass wiitwd. They are oft times good touch stones... but putting things into practice is a much better learning tool for most. To do so safely usualy means having a knowledgeable person there for guidance. That is not always possible.. but we can all hope. Even being a Mentor, or a teaching bottom does not ensure the person actualy holding the whip is not going to be a goober. In the end.. the designation matters very little. The mindset, and ability to listen of the whip wielder is what is most important. You can talk till you are blue in the face as a mentor, or as a teaching bottom, but if the "Dom/me" acts like a sulky spoiled teenager, and does it thier way any way because they know what they are doing.... ( I have seen this) it doesnt matter who is teaching them.. or how. Often this whole "well am I a Dom/me or what?" sets in.. and they shrug thier ass up on thier shoulders.. and no common sense gets past it. All is lost from there on in. If not... then a Bottom, or a mentor can lead the through the learning process. Whip and cane strikes should never be first learned on a human any way IMO... most people forget that. This is how many submissives are hurt. People I mentor get really comfortable with thier pillows for a while.

Just like submissives need to be trained so do Dom/mes... no one has an all encompasing knowledge straight out of the box.

Gwyn

_____________________________

Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

(in reply to probablyknowme)

Post #: 18

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/17/2008 11:33:53 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

Even with the mentor standing right there (the only situations where I'd let a novice do knife play on me), I'd consider myself to be being a guina pig. They are untested and trying out their skills - it's an experiment. A fairly safe one but an experiment all the same.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Gwynvyd)

Post #: 19

RE: Me...an Elitist??? - 2/18/2008 1:05:26 AM

lusciouslips19

Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline

I was very interested when seeing a workshop on fireplay. However, I would never do it without a Dominant being skilled and trained in this type of play.

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 20

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