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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 7:02:09 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Neither, however, did the German people prior to the deluge of propaganda that tacitly and explicitly stated the Jews are sub-human; without this propaganda, the denigration of Jews in 1930s Germany that paved the way for the holocaust, wouldn't have been possible. You have to strip people of their status and rights as human beings to get people on board.



The Shoah was a culmination. It was not uniquely a derivative of punctual Nazi policy. It was not specific to Germany. Pogroms and antisemitic sentiment prevailed throughout Europe. Jewish people were frequently the subjects of suspicion and prejudice. Entire cultures of hatred were built upon it. Remember Alfred Dreyfus? A drop in a lake of pogroms. Your comparison simply doesn't stand.


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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 7:11:52 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The Shoah was a culmination. It was not uniquely a derivative of punctual Nazi policy. It was not specific to Germany. Pogroms and antisemitic sentiment prevailed throughout Europe.



I didn't say, nor do I believe, otherwise.

Do you believe Islamophobia is not significant throughout Europe and the United States?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Jewish people were frequently the subjects of suspicion and prejudice.



See above.

In the interests of clarity, I'm not claiming that the Jews of past centuries faced similar levels of oppression as the Muslims of today. The point I'm making is we're heading down the same road in the event we don't learn the lessons from history.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 7:15:13 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
It was not specific to Germany.
Quite. As I said in an earlier post: world wide.
In some ways you and NG are both right. In others both your perceptions are too limited.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 7:33:53 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

In the interests of clarity, I'm not claiming that the Jews of past centuries faced similar levels of oppression as the Muslims of today. The point I'm making is we're heading down the same road in the event we don't learn the lessons from history.



Thanks for clarifying that point.

The Shoah provoked Jewish people to rethink their culture of pacifism and immersion in studies. Since we live in a world where we have to fight to remain alive, fight we will. I don't believe the Palestinians, or Muslims, as a group, will ever suffer the same fate as the Jew... and especially not by Israel.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 9:07:42 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Since we live in a world where we have to fight to remain alive, fight we will.



I've read a few of your posts, and wouldn't have guessed for one minute this is the way you think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I don't believe the Palestinians, or Muslims, as a group, will ever suffer the same fate as the Jew... and especially not by Israel.



The Palestinians are being removed from their homes by the Israeli government. Regardless of past history, this is unacceptable; in fact, I would have thought there would be greater incentive to not act like a police state.

In terms of Muslims suffering the same fate as Jewish men/women, I doubt anyone would have believed the Holocaust was possible, and it's not that long ago that Bosnian Muslims were being massacred. It's not beyond the realms of the imagination.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 9:11:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

In the interests of clarity, I'm not claiming that the Jews of past centuries faced similar levels of oppression as the Muslims of today. The point I'm making is we're heading down the same road in the event we don't learn the lessons from history.



Thanks for clarifying that point.

The Shoah provoked Jewish people to rethink their culture of pacifism and immersion in studies. Since we live in a world where we have to fight to remain alive, fight we will. I don't believe the Palestinians, or Muslims, as a group, will ever suffer the same fate as the Jew... and especially not by Israel.


Where I agree the Jewish people have had to face almost 2,000 years of prejudice and pograms at the hands of European Christianity, the Jewish culture has never been pacifist. You just have to read the bible for that. As Noam Chomsky put it “The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history”. Ironically, the first recorded genocide is in the bible and it was carried out by Jews under the command of Moses and under instructions of the Jewish god (if I've got my bible right). However, anti-semeticism is exclusively tied up with the Chrisitan religion and was uniquely European though some has spread to the Americas. However, the muslims are not anti-semetic, they have a specific argument with Israel, not the Jews in general, though some of the ME conflict is spilling over into Europe.

Will the same thing happen to muslims in the west as happened to the Jews in Europe? Possibly, the demonizing has begun and is gaining ground. You just have to look at many pro-Israeli Americans, they readily accept that Palestinians and the rest of the ME muslims are uncivilized, irrational and violent. At the same time they don't accept that Israeli violence and their subjugation and stealing of Palestian land is criminal, uncivilised and violent. I do however believe it to be rational, Ben Gurion and his fellow zionists laid out rational reasons for Israeli brutality. Yes, people point to Palestinian rockets being fired daily  (which rarely harm, never mind kill anyone) while the Israelis assasinate Palestinians with air to ground missiles, not caring if they kill women and children, which they regularly do. They destroy Palestinian homes as a collective punishment, they incarcerate thousands of Palestinians without trial, they torture captives, they steal Palestinian land and water, strangle economic activity and break just about every international law and treaty on human rights but never once question what they do is as bad, never mind worse than what the Palestinians do.

Yes, the Jews suffered but it wasn't the fault of the Palestinians, it was from Europeans, particularly Christians. Why should the Palestinaisn care about Jewish suffering when the Jews are making them suffer? Most westerners appear to back Israel out of collective guilt, not out of a rational appraisal of the conflict in the ME. If Israel wants to act like German Nazis that is fine but don't expect everyone to accept Israeli crimes on the back of the holocaust. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Let's take this a step further, many of the people on these threads that don't believe Israeli violence is wrong, also don't believe American and their poodle's violence is wrong. It is the west that has their troops in the ME, not the other way round so how people keep believing the west is fighting a just cause is beyond me. And to get back on topic, it is the west that has consistently interfered in Iran, it has not been Iran interfering in the west so Iran has a just case when it is pissed off with America, its poodles like Britain and its satelites like Israel.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/24/2008 9:33:32 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 10:13:56 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

In the interests of clarity, I'm not claiming that the Jews of past centuries faced similar levels of oppression as the Muslims of today. The point I'm making is we're heading down the same road in the event we don't learn the lessons from history.



Thanks for clarifying that point.

The Shoah provoked Jewish people to rethink their culture of pacifism and immersion in studies. Since we live in a world where we have to fight to remain alive, fight we will. I don't believe the Palestinians, or Muslims, as a group, will ever suffer the same fate as the Jew... and especially not by Israel.


1 million muslims dead and counting in the name of terrorism?  We may not be disecting them in biology classes before rigermortis sets in but clearly they are suffering the same fate as the jews trying to protect their sovereign countries respectively.  That and whats so special about the (for the sake of an argument), 6 million jews, when comparing it to the 43million stalin wasted? 

Here is an article to illustrate this:

How, I wondered, could such historical amnesia afflict so many young North-American Ukrainians? For Jews and Armenians, the genocides their people suffered are vivid, living memories that influence their daily lives. Yet today, on the 70th anniversary of the destruction of a quarter of Ukraine's population, this titanic crime has almost vanished into history's black hole. So has the extermination of the Don Cossacks by the Soviets in the 1920's, and Volga Germans, in 1941; and mass executions and deportations to concentration camps of Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, and Poles. At the end of World War II, Stalin's gulag held 5.5 million prisoners, 23% Ukrainians and 6% Baltic peoples. Almost unknown is the genocide of 2 million of the USSR's Muslim peoples: Chechen, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, Tajiks, Bashkir, Kazaks. The Chechen independence fighters today branded "terrorists" by the US and Russia are the grandchildren of survivors of Soviet concentration camps.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis45.html
Russia never prosecuted any of its mass murderers, as Germany did.

We know all about crimes of Nazis Adolf Eichmann and Heinrich Himmler; about Babi Yar and Auschwitz. But who remembers Soviet mass murderers Dzerzhinsky, Kaganovitch, Yagoda, Yezhov, and Beria? Were it not for Alexander Solzhenitsyn, we might never know of Soviet death camps like Magadan, Kolyma, and Vorkuta.



So here is my question;  what makes the jewish holocaust SOOOOOO much more horrible than all the other holocausts in history and even worse the one we are presently implementing right now withour illegal take over of iraq?  We are fighting terrorists right?  Of course terrorists being defined as "anyone who disagrees with the federal government".


What makes us better than germany?  What makes the jewish holocaust any worse than other holocausts that are of even greater proportions?






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/24/2008 10:19:30 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 10:16:31 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

A long history of pogroms culminated with the ultimate pogrom of all pogroms: the destruction of the European Jews during the Holocaust - see Raul Hilberg, who wrote a seminal work on the subject. After numerous reminders, the posters who argue against Israel's politics still ignore this historical fact.

Israel doesn't have a policy of genocide towards the Palestinians. It really does everybody a disservice to argue this point: Israel has no intention of exterminating the Palestinians.

To argue that Israel behaves like Nazi Germany is fucking perverse.


And yet it keeps being repeated over and over, and all facts and evidence to the contrary are dismissed with cites and rhetoric borrowed from Stormfront, or the forged Protocols, or 'history' straight from David Irving, and of course, outright denial....which makes the claims of being objective even more fantastic.

Ending the cycle of violence in the Middle East could only start with addressing wrongdoing on the part of every side, and recognizing the actual motivations of every actor. 

And apparently, that is the last thing that any of the deniers here want.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 10:23:30 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

A long history of pogroms culminated with the ultimate pogrom of all pogroms: the destruction of the European Jews during the Holocaust - see Raul Hilberg, who wrote a seminal work on the subject. After numerous reminders, the posters who argue against Israel's politics still ignore this historical fact.

Israel doesn't have a policy of genocide towards the Palestinians. It really does everybody a disservice to argue this point: Israel has no intention of exterminating the Palestinians.

To argue that Israel behaves like Nazi Germany is fucking perverse.


And yet it keeps being repeated over and over, and all facts and evidence to the contrary are dismissed with cites and rhetoric borrowed from Stormfront, or the forged Protocols, or 'history' straight from David Irving, and of course, outright denial....which makes the claims of being objective even more fantastic.

Ending the cycle of violence in the Middle East could only start with addressing wrongdoing on the part of every side, and recognizing the actual motivations of every actor. 

And apparently, that is the last thing that any of the deniers here want.


You yet again avoid pertinent points, complain in generalisations so to avoid having to answer specifics and refuse pin point the people you accuse of anti-semeticism.

I do notice you mention 'wrongdoing on part of every side' now. Is this a grudging admission that the people you accuse of anti-semeticism might be right about a few things?

I haven't forgot you directly accused me of being anti-semetic once and having asked you specifically for the evidence you based your conclusion on, you simply never answered my request and you still avoid talking in specifics after implying that just about everyone who doesn't agree with you is anti-semetic and wants to see all Jews killed. Why do you bother because such an anemic position isn't even defending your own point of view but merely shows how weak it is.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/24/2008 10:32:58 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 10:30:50 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And yet it keeps being repeated over and over, and all facts and evidence to the contrary are dismissed with cites and rhetoric borrowed from Stormfront, or the forged Protocols, or 'history' straight from David Irving, and of course, outright denial....which makes the claims of being objective even more fantastic.

Ending the cycle of violence in the Middle East could only start with addressing wrongdoing on the part of every side, and recognizing the actual motivations of every actor.

And apparently, that is the last thing that any of the deniers here want.


Yeh its called pay attention to our constitution.  Had we kept our noses in our own business and stayed the hell out of there we would not have any of these problems would we?  You dont see terrorists blowing the hell out of swiss biuldings do you? (or any number of other countries that mind their own bees wax.

Lets start by addressing american imperialism and that is all that need be addressed because once that is addressed the rest will fall into place automatically.

The only reason we have been in bed with israel is because they are our foothold in the middle east and it is a strategic location for us.

As far as denial is concerned if these people who are denying it are taking into consideration all the other mass murders throughout history they might have a difficult time calling it a holocaust by comparison.

The only holocaust I ever hear about is the jewish one.  Lets talk about all the others sometime or dont they count as much?



< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/24/2008 10:32:40 AM >

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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 12:02:27 PM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		I wish those who label others as holocaust deniers and anti-semites would be both honest enough and brave enough to quote exactly what they have read in this thread that illustrates such viewpoints.  Otherwise, it would seem that they either have their judgement clouded by overwrought emotion, or are trying to deliberately obfuscate the debate and perhaps even close it down.

I first heard the treatment of the Palestinians described as reminiscent of the Nazis 20 around years ago, by my former professor.  A Jew, born in Israel, who has made a study of Nazi Germany.  I suppose people use terms with which they are familar.  Desmond Tutu described Israel's behaviour as "like Apartheid" as did Nelson Mandela.  The fact is, a number of renowned egalitarians have visited Israel and come away astounded that it is permitted to act as it does.  There are even groups of concerned Israeli citizens and ex-IDF personnel who campaign for better treatment of the Palestinians.  I suppose they are all holocaust deniers, too?

You may not agree with me that the checkpoints, the walls and all the other more destructive actions which cloud the lives of Palestinians are mostly done to demoralise them but surely even the most devoted cheerleaders here can see that having a two-tier society increases conflict, not decreases it?  If there were streets along which you could neither walk nor drive, while others were waved through; if you had to queue for hours and be strip-searched before you could go to work or return home; if you had had to leave your home and your new slum had just had a wall built around it - how would you feel about the society that does that?

As for those who are confident about the nuclear situation in the middle east, remember that Israel did deploy nuclear mines on the Golan Heights in the 70's.  Despite having the best army in the region, it would not be long into any conflict before battlefield nuclear weapons came into play  - because the territory is so small there is little choice if Israel is not to be overrun.  It's imperative that the world community effects a de-escalation in Israel's tense, emotional atmosphere because a first strike is likelier there than in any other place on the planet.  Why worry about Iran when they don't even have the bomb yet?

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 1:26:25 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		  Well put RealityLicks.

There`s no doubt that there are characters who are anti-Semitic and wish harm of Jews ,for any number of reasons.

These jerks don`t discern Israel from Judaism or Jews.It`s all bad to them and the reasons for the hate don`t matter.

They are icky people.

But that`s not what going on in this thread.

There are people making reasonable comments,people making principled comments(like kittinSol).

And there are people throwing word-bombs and hijacking, with injections of hitler/nazis/holocaust denier and references to Auschwitz.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



There are many folks who don`t have any feelings about Jews either way,who view what Israel is doing as illegal and wrong.

It`s not fair to conflate criticism of some of Israel's policies with anti-semitism.It`s not fair to the issue,the region,the people there or the world community.They all deserve better.

The subject is far to important to be stifled with word-bombs like "anti-Semitic" or "denier".Especially when that`s not true.

Those words suck the oxygen right out of the room.Of course,if that`s the objective ,then there`s no shame on those that use them.

.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/24/2008 1:29:27 PM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 1:47:00 PM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		I have read only the posts on the last couple of pages in this thread. As far as I recall people have been objective. This last post by Owner59 was not. I will not respond to this thread any more.

< Message edited by Rule -- 2/24/2008 1:50:39 PM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 1:58:24 PM   
Owner59


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"911 comes to mind - there were not even any highjackers on the two planes used, nor on the other two planes that never existed. Also various notorious bombings."


lol, nuff said. 

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 2:04:18 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

The only reason we have been in bed with israel is because they are our foothold in the middle east and it is a strategic location for us.



I disagree.  Isreal was only strategic from the standpoint of protecting our oil trade from the Mediterranean using world war two fighting technologies.  If the US put the money we wasted attacking Iraq into alternative fuels and removed our dependance on oil, the US would do just fine without Israel.  The opposite is not the case from a military or financial standpoint.

Sinergy


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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 5:03:36 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

The only reason we have been in bed with israel is because they are our foothold in the middle east and it is a strategic location for us.



I disagree.  Isreal was only strategic from the standpoint of protecting our oil trade from the Mediterranean using world war two fighting technologies.  If the US put the money we wasted attacking Iraq into alternative fuels and removed our dependance on oil, the US would do just fine without Israel.  The opposite is not the case from a military or financial standpoint.

Sinergy




Yeh good point.  However its still a port we can land whatever we want with no arguments, just get the invoice.

The american israel alliance is similar to the mutt and jeff routine only more like the mutt and muttlier routine.

Has anyone seen "the clinton chronicles"?

The guy offers a 1000 bucks to anyone who can show he made a mistake in the documentary.  Its a long one, but real eye opener illustrating just how much these people can get away with behind and in front of our backs. 

As far as the military and financial is concerned I would add the mafia too.



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 5:12:03 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Since we live in a world where we have to fight to remain alive, fight we will.



I've read a few of your posts, and wouldn't have guessed for one minute this is the way you think.



Forgive me if I sounded belligerent there, but you will agree that sometimes, life is fight or flee. Too many posters are trying to make a case against Israel out of a myriad of links and quotes, instead of concentrating on solutions. It gets tedious to hear the same arguments again and again, no?

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 5:44:46 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Forgive me if I sounded belligerent there, but you will agree that sometimes, life is fight or flee. Too many posters are trying to make a case against Israel out of a myriad of links and quotes, instead of concentrating on solutions. It gets tedious to hear the same arguments again and again, no?



All I have ever said is that Israel needs to start figuring out how to make friends with their neighbors and stop treating the Palestineans like second class people.

Their history would be far different if the US wasnt standing in the wings ready to beat down people who attack them.

I have similar issues with the US government.

Sinergy

p.s. It does fascinate me that Alumbrado interprets this to mean I do not believe the holocaust happened.


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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 5:53:38 PM   
Real0ne


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Ok so lets start at the beginning.  How do you convince their neighbors that they should allow a religious state on their turf that they do not want or sanction in any way?

Maybe if we can resolve that?




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kittinSol)
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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/24/2008 6:21:12 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Since we live in a world where we have to fight to remain alive, fight we will.



I've read a few of your posts, and wouldn't have guessed for one minute this is the way you think.



Forgive me if I sounded belligerent there, but you will agree that sometimes, life is fight or flee. Too many posters are trying to make a case against Israel out of a myriad of links and quotes, instead of concentrating on solutions. It gets tedious to hear the same arguments again and again, no?


Yes,kittin.

My 2 cents on solutions.

I would love,love love to see Jerusalem turned into an International city,policed by an elite and non-partisan police/security force.That`s like half the problem right there.

I would love for water rights to be shared and the apartheid system removed.

I would love to see some sort of compensation or consideration given to those that truly lost land(not interlopers or non-Palestinians).

I would love to see a stop to building of settlements on occupied land.That only kills the spirit of anyone trying to make peace there and breeds despair.

I`d love to see the 50% unemployment rate cut to 5 or 10 and allow people some dignity.

I would love for this to not all be put on the Arabs and made all their fault.

I would love to see a frank and honest discussion of this very important subject.I would love to see people who`re againt finding solutions to STFU.

Would a thread on solutions devolve into a hateful,ugly and counterproductive exercise?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


ps.I`m also fascinated that Alumbrado/luckdog will see my thoughts on solutions think I`m a holocaust denier.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/24/2008 6:33:21 PM >

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