meatcleaver
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
quote:
ORIGINAL: Owner59
ps.I`m also fascinated that Alumbrado/luckdog will see my thoughts on solutions think I`m a holocaust denier.
The thoughts that I'm seeing claim that the historical references which document that Arabs or Muslims had been involved in the Holocaust or other pre-Israel genocidal pogroms are BS and vile propaganda which should not be cited .
As I keep pointing out to you Alumbrado and you keep willfully ignoring my posts because they are inconvenient to your world view, the start of this conflict was the Balfour Declaration which was religiously inspired, Balfour being a religious nut and more interested in the 'chosen people' returning to their biblical homeland than the good governance of the region. This was a good ten years before anything you cited and Balfour encouraged imigration of Jewish aliens into the region and gave moral support to the zionists who were involved in illegal immigration into the region. It was Balfour's declaration, his support for the zionists and the zionist's illegal activities that started the conflict (Hell! The zionists were not secretive about their aims or what they planned to do to the resident Arab population!) and caused an Arab reaction. Let's be honest about this, before anything anti Jewish you can cite by the Arabs, the zionists had alrerady declared that the region needed to be cleansed of Arabs.
You can ignore my posts but others will read them so why don't you just stop running away and argue your point instead of hiding behind generalisations and unwilling to admit you are wrong.
I'm also seeing others hijack attempts to discuss realistic solutions by claiming that the Jews are the ones whose actions need to be criticised, and dismissing the history of violence against them (Holocaust et al.) as quote:
...whatever [Jews, Bush, kindergarten bullies, whatever] thinks they did.
On the documented fact that there were 1920s Mufti directed Palestinian death squads targeting Jews in Jerusalem, one response was...quote:
'What facts?'.... and ..... 'Jews lived in Palestine before World War II without any animosity toward them... lived in peace. It was only when an invasion force displaced these people from their homes that they became angry.'
Those may not be denial or derail in your book, but they will do until a 'real' denier comes along.
And trying later to spin the straw argument that this was a noble defense of all Arabs/Muslims who weren't involved (insinuating that the naming of specific names, places, and incidents from history books was wholesale slander), does nothing to inspire confidence in altruistic motives.
Speak the words, wear the label...now who spoke these words, in specific reference to the historical article on Al-Husseini's Arab/Muslim campaign of genocide against the Jews in collaboration with the Reich?
quote:
Not sure what you were trying to do by linking middle eastern Arabs with the nazis,but is was pure bullshit and vile propaganda.
As I stated, I have no intention of debating with any of you whether or not the the Arab role in the Holocaust, or the other dates and atrocities against Jews I listed actually occurred, since they are a matter of record...
If you want to deny them, feel free to back it up to someone else, and feel free to complain when I call it denial.
Now for those willing to address real solutions, it is mandatory to quit relying on sound bites, and address these factors:
>That linked to (among other things) centuries of Muslim/Arab and European attempts at genocide, many Jewish people currently believe (rightly or wrongly), that their lives depend upon supporting Israel's policies.
>That linked to (among other things) recent events involving territory, in the eyes of many Palestinians, their survival is linked to the successful actions of their leaders.
Because without grasping that both sides of this cycle of violence think they are acting in the right, and that both sides are in fact perpetuating it, there will be no solutions found. Read up on conflict mediation, this is a core principle.
Admit to that in total, not in part, and we can start talking about the current mistakes on the parts of both governments.
Let's get to the heart of ther matter, the Arabs didn't start this conflict, you can blame that on Balfour and the zionists. You can't blame the Arabs for the holocaust, no matter how much mud you want to throw around, that was commited by the Germans and other European collaborators. Everything you have accused the Arabs of was a reaction to events they did not start!
And the one thing people like you never face up to is that Israel in its dealings with the occupied Arabs breaks just about every international law and every treaty on human rights you care you mention and is aided and abetted by the US and other western countries who claim to support civilized values and the rule of law. The Arab anti-Jewish sentiment is not anti-semetic (Hey, here's a news flash for you, the Arabs are a semetic people themselves), it has a specific cause and solution, whether you agree with that cause or not ie another matter but only the ignorant can claim it doesn't exist.
I know you don't have the bottle to answer specifics, prefering to throw mud around than to admit you are wrong and reacting out of self righteousness while ignoring the facts.
< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/26/2008 2:00:12 AM >
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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.
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