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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 2:57:51 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

People are prejudiced, not religions. In my experience, the majority of Xtians and Muslims are prejudiced against Jews.



In my experience, an English experience, a small minority of people are prejudiced against Muslims and I don't recall (in my lifetime) hearing anyone make an anti-semitic remark. I live in North Manchester, which has a large Jewish community, so I've had Jewish girlfriends and dates etc and spent time 'round a few girls' parents. I've found that the older generation are nervous, but can't point to any examples of anti-Semitism they have faced, which suggests this is a nervousness borne out of problems faced by older generations that are being passed down, rather than any real anti-Semitism faced in modern-day England.
There are idiots, of course, there always will be, and I'm sure someone could find an English website set up by some crank; but those people are a tiny minority here.

'Truth be told, it turned out Lisa's parents (we courted for about 18 months) were prejudiced against me for not being Jewish, and they would have been even more prejudiced had I not been in a professional occupation. Sophie, who spends time with me at the moment, her parents want her to marry someone of the Jewish faith - fine, their call.

It's worth pointing out that we're secularised as a nation, which somewhat explains the relatively low levels of bigotry, here.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 6:07:57 AM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		General ...
 
As I read this thread, I'm happy for my simplistic view of the world.
 
At the end of the Second World War, someone that had some land (because they had their troops all over it) wanted to give it to someone else, and did. The people around, all ganged up and tried to kick these new owners out, and got their ass kicked instead. This process has been repeated several times since. Their is a big bad nation out there, that supports the little nation that could, to the death.
 
Now ... lets dispense with the pie in the sky crap, and talk like adults.
 
The land only "belongs" to the Palestinians, if you are willing to draw two lines in history and ignore everything before and after that line. There are several factions that have equal claims to that land. Perhaps the Brits pushing their views in this discussion (as they have the right to do), should pack their bags and give their island back to the Romans. Wait, weren't the Celts there first? How about giving it back to them?
 
I've been chewed up before, when making "might is right" statements, mostly by people unwilling to accept that understanding it, isn't calling for it ... but there it is.
 
The Palestinians and allies chose war at the formation of Israel, and lost. Perhaps they should have tried getting along, before taking a sucker punch ... and it's funny, once you take that sucker punch, they guy you swung at, probably is going to start treating you a little differently ... especially if they have been sucker punched many times before.
 
The United States, has the right to have whatever friends it desires, and support them as they see fit. Others have the right to whine about it, but there is ends.
 
By the way ... I haven't seen any anti-semetic statements in this thread ... only people bitching about the air, as if we could breath something else.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 6:24:57 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Perhaps the Brits pushing their views in this discussion (as they have the right to do), should pack their bags and give their island back to the Romans. Wait, weren't the Celts there first? How about giving it back to them?
 


Well actually Caitlyn, the Brits are both English and Celts but I assume you mean English in this case. New research has found Germanic place names preceding the Romans in several areas of England which seem to suggest that England has always been Germanic and that would account for the lack of evidence (both genetic and archeological) of the Celts ever having occupied England.

Oh and I think the evidence shows it was the zionists that chose war, way back before 1948, they left enough written evidence of their ambitions and plans.

But if you are right about people being in the right about kicking whoever's arse they like, why have the Americans made such a big deal of 9/11. After all, its only a minor thing compared to what America has done in the ME.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 7:58:40 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		NorthernGent, I certainly don't advise you to read the rag in question; I simply recommended you read up on the subject. It's in the Middle East that it's the most read and indeed, the most respected. I know: I saw the book shops. I heard the people talk as if it were Gospel (how ironic, that). Wiki's article on the subject is quite exhaustive.

PS: what I always loved about England was its relative lack of extremisms and its tradition for religious and cultural tolerance. So yes, kudos to England.

PPS: and if you really like a Jewish girl, you can always consider conversion.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 2/27/2008 8:08:27 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 8:50:56 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Incidentally, NorthernGent, for historical purposes I advise you to Google up on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an infamous forgery with roots dating back to the XIXth Century - it is still shamefully used for antisemitic propaganda pretty much everywhere - it's freely available in a number of countries in the Middle East. The Nazis made extensive use of it, and incredibly it was widely believed to be grounded in reality... well, it still is. It's a disgusting piece of trash, but I think everybody needs to know about it, at least.



Kittin,

I can't see it jumping the queue on my reading list.

I'll take a wild stab in the dark, though........roughly speaking, those of the Jewish faith want to take over the world and Zionism is an expression of this desire. If so, I'll swerve it.

In terms of it is still used for anti-semitic propaganda everywhere, if you polled a representative sample of people in England, I doubt very much that more than 10% will have heard of these protocols let alone use it/them as propaganda. In fact, I'd say it's a pleasure to be English because we don't have anywhere near the number of far right wingers, as say Germany, France and the United States, who thrive on attacking minority groups.


NorthernGent,


I`m afraid it`s a bit more sinister and prevalent then you might think.I wish it were not the case.

True,taking your poll might achieve the results you predicted and perhaps even a more positive result could be found.IMO,the English are a bit more wise and worldly and accepting of people as they are.


But to the committed bigot/anti-Semite,the Protocols of The Elders of Zion is the bible of their faith and very well known.


It`s a frighteningly evil bit of work and has caused a huge amount of suffering and damage.


The Internet has given these scoundrels more and better opportunities to spread the disease.These are dark,scary people.


True,it`s only a tiny fraction of any population that get`s into this weirdness but every once in a while, someone acts on this BS.


We have a lot of nutters over here in the states.They range from 9/11 Truthers and Rambo/militia types, to hardcore racists and committed religious/cultural bigots.


The Protocols and those that refer to them,are just a small part
of  the weirdness.There is also the white supremacists groups like theWhite Citizens' Council the Ku Klux Klan,the  Council of Conservative Citizens (where Sen.Trent Lott(R-Tenn) just spoke),
and any number of crackpot hate groups.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Take what they say with a grain(or sack) of salt,but don`t underestimate them or the damage they can and will cause.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant for these rats.

Let it shine,let it shine,let it shine.



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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 8:56:38 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

PPS: and if you really like a Jewish girl, you can always consider conversion.



I do believe somewhere it is written that it is to be the man that leads his family in prayer. Not much of a leader that would sacrifice his beliefs just to fit in or be accepted.



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Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 9:07:36 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Hello.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

PPS: and if you really like a Jewish girl, you can always consider conversion.



I do believe somewhere it is written that it is to be the man that leads his family in prayer. Not much of a leader that would sacrifice his beliefs just to fit in or be accepted.




Bull,

Bravo for your strong stand.And bravo for the freedom to be what we want to be.Hopefully one won`t be called a pussy for their choices.Yes?

Freedom.That`s why there`s vanilla and chocolate.

Enjoy your flavor.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/27/2008 9:43:01 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 9:29:09 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Hello.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

PPS: and if you really like a Jewish girl, you can always consider conversion.



I do believe somewhere it is written that it is to be the man that leads his family in prayer. Not much of a leader that would sacrifice his beliefs just to fit in or be accepted.




Conversion is no small matter, and any potential convert is automatically looked upon with suspicion; if the future convert is suspected of doing it purely to 'get the girl', he won't get very far. It takes spiritual will to get there. Besides, many rabbis simply won't carry it out. But it's possible: I think your view is a little skewed. What's wrong with abandoning past beliefs if one realises they were wrong? Happens all the time.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 10:21:13 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hmmmm

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Hello.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

PPS: and if you really like a Jewish girl, you can always consider conversion.



I do believe somewhere it is written that it is to be the man that leads his family in prayer. Not much of a leader that would sacrifice his beliefs just to fit in or be accepted.




Conversion is no small matter, and any potential convert is automatically looked upon with suspicion; if the future convert is suspected of doing it purely to 'get the girl', he won't get very far. It takes spiritual will to get there. Besides, many rabbis simply won't carry it out. But it's possible: I think your view is a little skewed. What's wrong with abandoning past beliefs if one realises they were wrong? Happens all the time.


Apparently I missed something.

It appeared to me that you wear implying if a guy liked a girl and her parents didn't like him because of his faith he could convert to her faith to get the girl. That seemed rather shallow and hypoctitical so I just made a small interjection. Now I don't want to get way off the topic so I'll just leave it at that. My bad perhaps.

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 11:08:24 AM   
Real0ne


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So apparently you will never answer that question then?






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/27/2008 11:38:26 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 11:21:41 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Oh and I think the evidence shows it was the zionists that chose war, way back before 1948, they left enough written evidence of their ambitions and plans.


Plans written by individuals are not public policy. It was not Israel that attacked her neighbors after her formation, now was it?
 
This is very simple really. The position of some here, yourself included, is the way of war. I'm sure that isn't your intent, but cutting directly to the chase, you are sending a signal that it's fine to fight deadly war, and attack your neighbors, and if you lose we will still hear your claims. Mine is the way of peace, although I'm sure many will say different, that sends a clear signal that you better not fight deadly war and attack your neighbors, or you may lose all, and the world will turn a deaf ear.
 
You are correct in your criticism of the United States. The best thing we could do for the Middle East, is get the hell out. It would do no harm to let the warring factions over there go back to killing each other with muskets.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 2/27/2008 11:23:12 AM >

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 11:27:49 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's in the Middle East that it's the most read and indeed, the most respected.



Maybe so, I couldn't say one way or the other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I heard the people talk as if it were Gospel (how ironic, that).



Out of curiosity, where was this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

PPS: and if you really like a Jewish girl, you can always consider conversion.



Little chance of that, Kittin; what a total fraud I'd be considering I have no interest in the concept of a god.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 11:49:27 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Incidentally, NorthernGent, for historical purposes I advise you to Google up on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an infamous forgery with roots dating back to the XIXth Century - it is still shamefully used for antisemitic propaganda pretty much everywhere - it's freely available in a number of countries in the Middle East. The Nazis made extensive use of it, and incredibly it was widely believed to be grounded in reality... well, it still is. It's a disgusting piece of trash, but I think everybody needs to know about it, at least.



Kittin,

I can't see it jumping the queue on my reading list.

I'll take a wild stab in the dark, though........roughly speaking, those of the Jewish faith want to take over the world and Zionism is an expression of this desire. If so, I'll swerve it.

In terms of it is still used for anti-semitic propaganda everywhere, if you polled a representative sample of people in England, I doubt very much that more than 10% will have heard of these protocols let alone use it/them as propaganda. In fact, I'd say it's a pleasure to be English because we don't have anywhere near the number of far right wingers, as say Germany, France and the United States, who thrive on attacking minority groups.


Thats not what Mindy told me.  She hated the zionists and absolutely would not identify with them.    To imply that jews and zionism according to her was to imply that all americans are klu klux klan.

What evidence do you have that it IS propaganda?  What evidence do you have that it is NOT the truth?


How can you disregard soemthing you have not read and know nothing about?  On an assumption?   That doesnt sound like you NG.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/27/2008 12:06:53 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 11:59:40 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Much of the propaganda emanating from radical Islamists is parroted by idiots in the West, who seem to see moral equivalency in the indiscriminate rocket attacks against Jewish towns, conveniently forgetting that every time Israel has entered into a cease-fire, the Palestinians screw the pooch.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27731


Please, please, expand!

You forget the indiscriminate murders by Israelis go on on a daily basis in the occupied territories. 8,000 Palestinians incarcerated without trials, the destruction of Arab homes as collective punishment, the annexing of occupied land, the redirecting of Arab water. ALL crimes acccording to international law, UN charter and human rights treaties. Don't talk about defenceless Israelis, Israel has the equivalent military of a large European country. Of course the Palestinians are resisting.

In fact I would highly recommend you go to Israel and see what you are defending.

You are the apologist for murderers.

Worldnetdailly, I've wiped my arse with more balanced reporting, actually, it isn't reporting, its commenting and spreading its own propaganda.

I first went to Israel in 1972 to work on a kibbutz, that is my anti-semetic background. In the time I had off I travelled around Israel with my friend. We were appalled to see how badly the Arabs were treated. Later in the year at a youth hostel in Heraklion (Crete) we met up with some Americans, Australian and other European youth who had also been to Israel to work on a kibbutz, all were as shocked as I and my friend as to how badly the Arabs were treated. I wouldn't treat a dog as badly as what the Israelis treated the Palestinians. It is then I started to question Israel. I was brought up to think Israel was in the right, however, I just couldn't dismiss what I had seen with my own eyes. I've been back a few times since and the situation for the Palestinians gets increasingly worse. I don't find it difficult to understand their resistance, its rational, even if their methods aren't always rational.


Yes and thanks hippie for correcting my grammatic error.  guns dont kill people either people kill people.

Like meat asked here, please do expand on this propaganda theory of yours as I do not see it as reasonable hence the possiblility of propaganda in itself.

That and how do you KNOW with certainty that it is the pals that screw it?  How do you know its not the Mossad and nothing more than a typical CIA style terrorist attack being blamed on the pals?

After all they have everythign to gain from never resolving this.




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 2/27/2008 12:10:15 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 12:17:04 PM   
SailingBum


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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 12:17:40 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Jordan, Egypt, Turkey.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 12:28:43 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

I heard california was going to fall into the ocean.


Warren Zevon was singing about that decades ago.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 12:42:11 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's in the Middle East that it's the most read and indeed, the most respected.



Maybe so, I couldn't say one way or the other.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I heard the people talk as if it were Gospel (how ironic, that).



Out of curiosity, where was this?



From the article she cited...
" In March 1970, the Protocols were reported to be the top 'nonfiction' bestseller in Lebanon.[56] The Country Reports on Human Rights Practices 2004 by the US Department of State states that "the television series, Ash-Shatat ("The Diaspora"), which centred on the alleged conspiracy of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion to dominate the world, was aired in October and November 2003 by the Lebanon-based satellite television network Al-Manar, owned by Hezbollah."[57]

[edit] Hamas
The Charter of Hamas explicitly refers to the Protocols, accepting them as factual and makes several references to Freemasons as one of the "secret societies" controlled by "Zionists". The Article 32 of the Hamas Charter states:

The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.[58]

[edit] Palestinian National Authority
The PNA frequently used the Protocols in the media and education under their control and some Palestinian academics presented the forgery as a plot upon which Zionism is based. For example, on January 25, 2001, the official PNA daily Al-Hayat al-Jadida cited the Protocols on its Political National Education page to explain Israel's policies:

Disinformation has been one of the bases of moral and psychological manipulation among the Israelis ... The Protocols of the Elders of Zion did not ignore the importance of using propaganda to promote the Zionist goals. The second protocol reads: 'Through the newspapers we will have the means to propel and to influence'. In the twelfth protocol: 'Our governments will hold the reins of most of the newspapers, and through this plan we will possess the primary power to turn to public opinion.'

Later that year the same newspaper wrote: "The purpose of the military policy is to impose this situation on the residents and force them to leave their homes, and this is done in the framework of the Protocols of Zion..."[59]
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Sheikh Ekrima Sa'id Sabri appeared on the Saudi satellite channel Al-Majd on February 20, 2005, commenting on the assassination of the former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. "Anyone who studies The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and specifically the Talmud," he said, "will discover that one of the goals of these Protocols is to cause confusion in the world and to undermine security throughout the world."[60]
In 2005, it was reported that the Palestinian Authority was teaching the Protocols in schools. After media exposure, the PA promised to stop.[61] On May 19, 2005, The New York Times reported that Palestinian Authority Minister of Information Nabil Shaath removed from his ministry's web site an Arabic translation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.[62]


...To a great degree, the text is still accepted as truthful in large parts of South America and Asia, especially in Japan where variations on the Protocols have frequently made the bestseller lists.[63]
In Turkey, particularly by ultra-nationalist and Islamist circles. The Protocols was first published in the magazine Millî İnkılâb (National Revolution) in 1934 and triggered the Thracian pogroms (Trakya Olayları) the same year. It ran through over 100 editions from 1943 to 2004 and remains a best-seller.[64]...

...In Indonesia a translation of the Protocols is available in Indonesian in a bundle with The International Jew. The books were translated and published in 2006 by the Hikmah division of the publisher Mizan. The front cover of The International Jew shows a quote by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: "The big question is how can the American government support this despicable Zionist regime".
"


Not religious 'Gospel', but very much accepted as 'gospel truth'. 

And certainly not some obscure piece of trivia that no one can see or need worry about except for a few paranoids, but instead one of the lynchpins of the massive propaganda machine feeding one side of the situation in the Middle East.  Propaganda swallowed and regurgitated, and even defended widely.

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RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 1:15:06 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And certainly not some obscure piece of trivia that no one can see or need worry about except for a few paranoids, but instead one of the lynchpins of the massive propaganda machine feeding one side of the situation in the Middle East.  Propaganda swallowed and regurgitated, and even defended widely.



Certainly not trivial - NG, I'm surprised you never heard of it until now.

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Profile   Post #: 299
RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear - 2/27/2008 1:27:11 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
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Status: offline 		Its funny, people seem willing to take anything as gospel, so long as it reaffirms their prejudices.  Even Wikipedia.

Firstly, I admit I'm quite surprised that some haven't heard of the Elders/Sion thing, as its been floating around for ages.  I'm sure I saw a copy of it recently: a Muslim guy with a little stall full of pamphlets, trying to sell them to passersby on Oxford Street.  It is a load of rubbish of course, but then, when did any fanatic let the truth get in the way of a "good" story?  I'd imagine from that that its widely available.  Islamophobes call this city Londonistan, some Muslims say its run by a Jewish Mafia.  Plus ca change.

So called racial difference was turned into a pseudo-science and taught for so long, that many believe that that's now gospel, too.  To the point that when Jim Watson made his famous comments about DNA and African intelligence recently, his sentiments were echoed on this very board.  And many of you have very cordial relations with the culprits - but again, plus ca change.  Against all the evidence that later supplants it, the onerous beliefs of a bygone era do tend to cling on. 

Now, I don't believe everything I see on TV - and I'm guessing people in the Middle East don't either - but if I did and I wanted justification for launching a war on white people, I'd only have to look as far as the presence of racism in society.  Isn't that what Eldridge Cleaver did?  Internalised the hatred of white society, so that he could rape and shoot whites and still hold the moral high ground?  Using anti-semitism to justify mistreating Palestinian communities does not stand up.

No matter what has happened in the past, nothing justifies punishing people who want nothing more than homes and their freedom.  Not the hate literature of the White Russians, not the expulsions dating back to the Middle Ages, not the pogroms, not even the Holocaust.  Those are things we are meant to learn from - all of us - not use as a license to attack others and get our retaliation in first.  Shoot all the combatants you can catch but let their families live as well as your own do.  Only then can you claim the moral rectitude and shameless self-righteousness that's leading us all into yet another war.


p.s.  Turns out Jim Watson's DNA is around 19% black anyway.  Are you sure Granny never lied to you? 

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