RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (Full Version)

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RealityLicks -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 1:37:01 AM)

On a more general note, its interesting that most of those who are "for" rights for Palestinians on this thread are at least still questioning and critique-ing the views of those "against".  It's a shame that the pro-Israel camp seem to have turned inward and now appear to have formed a "knitting circle" - only concerned with consoling each other. 




Rule -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 1:41:27 AM)

I have not read all of RealOne's post, but sufficient to perceive a possible truth.
 
This sentence is a lie.
Epimenides the Cretan: "All Cretans are liars."
The liar paradox.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
The facts simply do not support the existence of a secret cabal of Jews bent on world domination.

The liar paradox. Do you see it? "secret cabal of Jews" That is the lie; presumably even two lies. The truth is this: "a not so secret cabal of Jews and non-Jews".
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
That is the paranoid fantasy of an anti-semite

Until it is embraced by a semite, me thinks. Then it is simply either a paranoid fantasy or perchance truth. Or can semites be anti-semite as well?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
It's precisely because such claims work on the paranoid fear of the "other" in wider society that some have challenged this ridiculous tract and exposed it as a fraud.

If they had not challenged it, the world would never have known about that Declaration of Intent. So what were they? Simply stupid dudes that were tricked into starting the legal challenge that made this document public to the world, or were they handmen of the people that formulated the Declaration of Intent? I consider those people that challenged this document to be highly suspect.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
Not because they were "silencing the truth" but because people often believe the printed word without adequate analysis.

They were not "silencing the truth" at all, as I stated before: they with the aid of the court were making this Declaration of Intent public to the whole world. It was a truly spectacular and cunning stunt of getting world wide publicity for this Declaration of Intent at the cost of half a penny and a pittance.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
If it were a secret society, wouldn't appearing in court not be somewhat difficult?  If a judge allowed such a group to have their own stenographer, couldn't you argue that they already controlled the court?

Your second sentence denies the truth of your first sentence. Are not a lot of lawyers jews? Yes, because of already controlling the courts, appearing in court would not be somewhat difficult at all, but easy.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
With that much power, why bother with a trial?

To get world wide attention for their Declaration of Intent.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
And why would they commit a "secret plan" to paper in the form of an earlier book?

That is simple: stuff that people try to keep secret by its nature is considered highly suspect, but stuff that is made public by its nature in contrast is not considered to be suspect at all, but perchance to be the lunatic ramblings of a loon. The added benefit of simply making public pertinent parts of a conspiracy is that no one is able to accuse one of trying to keep it a secret, and by some warped implication neither will no one accuse such a person of conspiring. The primary reason of course is to communicate in this way with like minded people; it simply is a very long advertisement.
 
Beware of the liars paradox for it may fool anyone.
 




NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 2:59:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And we've also had the only possible solution explained to us...conciliation and  atonement... from one side only.



Oh, come on Alumbrado......let's have a dance, a little shuffle around the floor.......cheek to cheek :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

It is a mess where both sides are engaged in a massive cycle of promoting violence.... both convinced that they are doing what is right to survive.



You see Alumbrado, we actually agree, and you would have seen this in one of my earlier posts if you'd have kept your cool instead of feeling victimised.




RealityLicks -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 3:28:10 AM)

To all and sundry -

A poll this week in Israeli Newspaper Ha'aretz shows that 64% of the public want the Gov't to open talks with Hamas and negotiate a ceasefire. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/28/israelandthepalestinians




NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 3:28:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Being pro-Palestinian is a de rigueur  tool in the leftist kit. Ironically, I consider myself to be pretty far out left on everything (especially here, where the Democrats are considered to be left-wing - I mean, give me a break!), but this obviously splits me up from my political kin. The older I grow, the more enclined I am to reject complacency. It's good that you think outside of the box :-) .



Yeah, and what splits me from a small minority of my "political kin" is the arrogance and self-righteousness adopted by a small minority on the left - de rigeur, de jour etc - fortunately for you, oh free thinker, you're not a conformist unlike those of us which you chastise in the above quote. I mean, those who don't agree with you couldn't possibly have arrived at a relevant point of view based on the available facts? I suppose you have to think outside of the box when you're residing on a high horse.

It's interesting that, by extenstion, you accuse the rest of us of bowing to authority: there can't be much of "a left" in your world, Kittin. 




NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 4:43:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

the Palestinians were not expelled in masse.  they live in Isreal, with full rights, vote, serve in the Knesset, hold Mayor and police function, ect.



Let's step back a second and briefly chart the recent history of Israel. Let's understand who exactly is being oppressed here and to what extent.
 
Israel was artificially created and is externally sustained. It is a colonial settler state founded by Britain and the USA to safeguard their oil and other economic and military interests in the region. The Arab peoples had fought against Ottoman domination, why on earth would they peacefully swap masters?

Zionist settlement began by purchasing land from Arab feudal lords and they expelled Palestinian peasants who came with the land; Jewish immigrants replaced them. Zionist leader Joseph Weitz: among ourselves it must be clear that there is no place in the country for both peoples together. With the Arabs, we shall not achieve our aim of being an independent people in this country. Transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, transfer all of them, not one village or tribe should remain. This suggests there was to be no place in the Israeli state for any Palestinian.

Moreover, fascist violence was used as a tool to achieve this objective. A systematic strategy was devised in 1948 to drive out Palestinians. The strategy during this period was described by Ben Gurion, the Israeli Prime Minister: the strategic objective was to destroy the urban community, which were the most organised and politically conscious sections of the Palestinian people. This was not done by house to house fighting inside the towns and cities, but by the conquest and destruction of the rural areas surrounding most of the towns. Deprived of transportation, food and raw materials, the urban communities underwent a process of disintegration, chaos and hunger which forced them to surrender. Shades of the German strategy in Eastern Europe? Steal land, set Germans to work on it, and suppress the intelligensia in order to crush resistance.

In modern times, despite repeated UN resolutions, Israel has reluctantly ceded some ground in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Since 1948, the vast majority of Arab land in Israel has been confiscasted and reserved for Jews only; Palestinians cannot buy, rent or lease in these areas. In the face of incontrovertible evidence, the UN in 1975 passed Resolution 3397 which determines that the Israeli authorities are undertaking a policy of racism and racial discrimination.

Crucially, the Israeli authorities have systematically undermined the possibility of an independent Palestinian agriculture and economy. On land requiring intensive water irrigation, Palestinians have virtually no rights to dig new wells. Water from existing Palestinian wells are also siphoned off to irrigate land confiscated by colonial settlers. Today there is no free passage between the supposedly autonomous regions of Gaza and the West Bank. All commercial traffic between these areas is in Israeli hands. Repeated closures of the border are devastating the Palestinian economy. For example, with trucks halted for days, it is cheaper for West Bank traders to import tomatoes from Spain than from Gaza. Repeatedly, Palestinian produce is left to rot at Israeli roadblocks and prohibitions are imposed on importing raw materials into areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority. Meanwhile the tide of colonisers keeps flowing into the West Bank. According to Nekuda, a settler publication, their numbers have increased by some 50 per cent since the signing of the peace accords. Strategically placed, with state funded programmes for massive expansion, these settlements, together with Israeli army roadblocks, have ensured that the major Palestinian population centres are reduced to isolated clusters, cut off from each other and dependent entirely on Israeli authority.

According to the Financial Times: Israeli governments, whether led by Labour or Netanyahu's Likud, have... used housing and zoning policy, and discrimination over resident permits, to create a Jewish majority in the eastern quarters and make it impossible for Arab residents to build enough to house their expanding families.
 
According to Professor Steinberg of Israel's Barllan University, the peace accords have amounted to the following:

Netanyahu has managed...to reduce the amount of territory to be returned to the Palestinians by being able to designate the military locations which will be excluded from the troop redeployment.

Ultimately, the Palestinians have no power - economic, military or political - as a counterweight to the massive military, economic and social reality of the Israeli state. It could be argued that the Palestinians are literally fighting a life and death battle for their future.

It goes without saying that Palestinians are engaged in indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israelis, but the Israeli government's blockade of the Gaza Strip constitutes collective punishment and cannot be justified. This blockade has increased the dire poverty experienced by Palestinians.

This brings me back to my initial point, if there is to be lasting peace, yes, all political actors and relevant stakeholders will need to be included in negotiations, but this sustained policy of suppressing the Palestinians' economic, political and social potential will have to be ended immediately. Is there a will on the part of the Israeli authorities? history and current policy suggests otherwise.

Luckydog, this may prove useful for you: the disproportionate reporting in the American media. Perhaps this is generating a climate of misunderstanding.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html




Real0ne -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 4:44:45 AM)

gen

The Ugly Truth about the ADL
Editors of the Executive Intelligence Review
152 pages, ISBN: 0-943235-07-3
Copyright 1992 5th printing, 1994
Published by Executive Intelligence Review
Perfect Bound


The ADL has repeatedly capitalized on the fact that most Americans believe what they see and hear at face value by conducting some of the most vile and reprehensible smear campaigns ever. Increasingly, with the use of the Internet many more scandalous and shocking revelations are being made known by individuals and organizations that care more about the principles of truth than they do about being labeled. There aren’t many with in depth knowledge of the shady formation and unsavory characters involved in what is the modern representation of the ADL. The editors of the Executive Intelligence Review (EIR) have delivered a significant amount of information in a small yet compelling book titled "The Ugly Truth About the ADL." The San Francisco Spy Scandal in 1994 showed the public what many of us have already known and that is that the Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith acts as a spy organization supplying intelligence data to foreign governments and delivering damaging information -- often fabricated or intentionally altered -- to enemies of those deemed to be their opponents. More often that not, the opponents of the ADL are those who stand in defense of freedom of speech and are not afraid to criticize the ADL’s tactics, information gathering stratagem, or object to what we at the TEI refer to as specious claims of anti-Semitism hurled so effectively and indiscriminately by the ADL in defense of their selfish economic or political interests.

The Ugly Truth about the ADL







Owner59 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 4:57:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Being pro-Palestinian is a de rigueur  tool in the leftist kit. Ironically, I consider myself to be pretty far out left on everything (especially here, where the Democrats are considered to be left-wing - I mean, give me a break!), but this obviously splits me up from my political kin. The older I grow, the more enclined I am to reject complacency. It's good that you think outside of the box :-) .



Yeah, and what splits me from a small minority of my "political kin" is the arrogance and self-righteousness adopted by a small minority on the left - de rigeur, de jour etc - fortunately for you, oh free thinker, you're not a conformist unlike those of us which you chastise in the above quote. I mean, those who don't agree with you couldn't possibly have arrived at a relevant point of view based on the available facts? I suppose you have to think outside of the box when you're residing on a high horse.

It's interesting that, by extenstion, you accuse the rest of us of bowing to authority: there can't be much of "a left" in your world, Kittin. 



Ouch!

I think you`re being a bit harsh, NorthernGent.

I think one can be biased,unreasonably biased,in certain cases and still be credible (and civil).

As one who doesn`t want to see abortion become illegal,I really can`t castigate or fault someone who believes the opposite.

The abortion debate has parties on both sides that have legitimate complaints and concerns.Both sides can claim a moral high ground and defend it with credibility.

And like the abortion debate,the parties in the ME conflict/debate all have legitimate complaints and concerns.

Kittin has stated her positions strongly and without reservation but with grace. And without playing the race card and calling her opponents anti-Semites or worse.

She on balance,has been agreeably dis-agreeable.Unlike a few here.




kittinSol -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 5:04:40 AM)

Considering we have three posters on this thread who advocate on behalf of the Palestinians whilst extolling the virtues of The Protocols, I should think everyone else is staying remarkably on topic. Furthermore, it strikes me that those that support the rights of Palestinians have now engaged in a manichean discourse which aims to paint the supporters of Israel as bloodthirsty oppressors.




NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 5:04:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Being pro-Palestinian is a de rigueur  tool in the leftist kit. It's good that you think outside of the box :-) .



No problem, Owner. Feel free to take the above how you see fit - I think it's fair to say I've made my case.




kittinSol -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 5:07:53 AM)

You took an off-hand comment far too seriously; others saw exactly what I was talking about. Perhaps it hit the mark for you, but it certainly wasn't a deliberate aim.

PS: why don't you show such indignation at the three rabid antisemites on this thread? It's... surprising.




Owner59 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 5:19:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You took an off-hand comment far too seriously; others saw exactly what I was talking about. Perhaps it hit the mark for you, but it certainly wasn't a deliberate aim.

PS: why don't you show such indignation at the three rabid antisemites on this thread? It's... surprising.


They`re slippery and not fully known to everyone here,kittin.

A few off-list emails can fix that.

It took a while before I realized I was conversing with and replying to one.lol.They look and sound(at 1st) just like normal folks.

Give it time,along some comments like your`s and people will pick up on it.





Real0ne -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 5:25:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
I don't recall ever correcting anyone's grammer on CM so Id' be most appreciative if you would point it out for me.

So the Mossad bought Chinese and Russian rockets, smuggled them into South Lebanon, and fired them at their own people in order to blame Hamas/Hezbollah/PLO, right? AH hahahaha that's some funny shit.


you may want to look at your whole post if you want to see how you corrected my grammar.

Yes that would be very funny shit had I actually said that. 

I put the question to you ASKING you how you KNOW UNEQUIVOCALLY that they DID NOT do such a thing.  The point it that you do not know.

I dont believe you are so naive to think that scenario is not common place.  Are you?  If you are you may want to read about Ajax and kermit rooseveldt and educate yourself on the matter.








NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 5:30:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

PS: why don't you show such indignation at the three rabid antisemites on this thread? It's... surprising.



Respond to extremism? I can't take it seriously, and I've better things to do with my time and energy.




Real0ne -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 5:35:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

On a more general note, its interesting that most of those who are "for" rights for Palestinians on this thread are at least still questioning and critique-ing the views of those "against".  It's a shame that the pro-Israel camp seem to have turned inward and now appear to have formed a "knitting circle" - only concerned with consoling each other. 


it is.

Never ceases to amaze me that the very same people who condemn the "Tally-Ban" for suppression turn right around and support a religious state.   Now in america that is unconstitutional to mix religion with politics.

One of lifes many mysteries I suppose.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Kittin has stated her positions strongly and without reservation but with grace. And without playing the race card and calling her opponents anti-Semites or worse.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

You took an off-hand comment far too seriously; others saw exactly what I was talking about. Perhaps it hit the mark for you, but it certainly wasn't a deliberate aim.

PS: why don't you show such indignation at the three rabid antisemites on this thread? It's... surprising.


Dont stop there! Please continue!  Showing proof that the semites in this thread have told falsehoods makes people antisemites huh?   Why are semites telling everyone that the protocols are "proven" to be a forgery when the court of appellate court overturned the rigged court and threw it out?  I suppose its those damn christians fault again. The question is what will I find in there that the semites are so intent on suppressing?

Anyone who critisizes a semite is an antisemite.   a rabid one at that!  Good thing I had my rabies shots! 

You are either with us or with the terrorists. 

Stand down, you all will be assimilated to the semite collective.

Resistance is futile. 





meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 5:47:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Considering we have three posters on this thread who advocate on behalf of the Palestinians whilst extolling the virtues of The Protocols, I should think everyone else is staying remarkably on topic. Furthermore, it strikes me that those that support the rights of Palestinians have now engaged in a manichean discourse which aims to paint the supporters of Israel as bloodthirsty oppressors.


I've never heard of these protocols so I'm not sure they are working very well at propaganda but who are these people you are talking about? Why do supporters of Israel use generalisations and tar everyone with the same brush? You can name names and be specific without breaking the rules of the site and insult people.

No one is painting supporters of Israel as blood thirsty, not from what I have seen anyway. Wrong headed, yes, because they are supporting a state that has an active policy of discrimination, collective punishment and ethnic cleansing. If you are saying what the Israelis are doing is not wrong, you can hardly accuse European anti-semsticism as being wrong. You can't have it both ways.




Rule -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 5:56:37 AM)

Fast reply
 
I think that it is marvelous that all jews are saints and that there are no evil jews - übermenschen like some politicians, lawyers, bankers, generals and physicians - at all. Imagine that: an ethnic group without untermenschen and übermenschen. A society that does not have a police force at all, except for traffic police, because there are no criminals nor psychopaths among the jews at all. Instead they are all good citizens that help old ladies cross the street and that dream of one day sitting on a cloud and playing the harp. Imagine that: not a single one of them will end up in Hell. Marvelous - and unrealistic from here to eternity.




Owner59 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 5:59:15 AM)

Fast reply

All-l-l-l r-r-righty nowww........


Ugg.




Owner59 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 6:19:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

PS: why don't you show such indignation at the three rabid antisemites on this thread? It's... surprising.



Respond to extremism? I can't take it seriously, and I've better things to do with my time and energy.


Yes.Be aware,but don`t feed the troll.A good idea.

Extremists,no matter who or what they represent should be ignored and/or laughed at and made fun of.I do it all the time.

Though I`ve done more flaming than others,I`d like to thank NorthernGent and Meatcleaver for doing the heavy lifting .





caitlyn -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 6:29:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I mean, those who don't agree with you couldn't possibly have arrived at a relevant point of view based on the available facts?


I think the basic idea, is a little head scratching over what is considered a fact.


Edited to add:
 
OK, the antisemite comments here are just out of line. This is a message board ... nobody here knows the person at the other end well enough to have an intelligent, formed opinion on a topic that complicated.

Even if you say you are going to judge people by what they type on here, one must consider that they might be marginal communicators.

Sorry for the soap box.




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