RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear

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kittinSol -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 7:06:14 AM)
Calling people names isn't conducive to an informed and mature debate; but if someone uses a piece of antisemitic propaganda as a way to further their point, it's only fair to call them what they are. What I find troubling here is that pro-Palestinian posters seem to completely ignore the anti-Jewish stance of Hamas and many other organisations, whilst not giving Israel the benefit of her relative restraint in the face of restless terrorism and wars at the hands of her neighbours. They want us to forget about the role of the Shoah in the creation of Israel supposedly because it's a past event; but they won't let go of the injustice they feel was inflicted upon the Palestinian people in the wake of Israel's creation. Either history is considered from all sides, or it's forgotten altogether (and good luck with that). In the interest of furthering this conversation, perhaps we should all retreat, take a deep breath, reconsider things with a cooler head... and charge back for another bout of online jousting [:D] .

RealityLicks -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 7:07:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Yes.Be aware,but don`t feed the troll.A good idea. Extremists,no matter who or what they represent should be ignored and/or laughed at and made fun of.I do it all the time. The point is that this anti-semitic tract, like it or not, is mentioned in the charter of Hamas and clearly doesn't face the same criticism, in the more populist arenas of the Muslim world, as it does in the west. Talking about it, or talking about talking about it: lets get it out of the way. While it's legitimate in debate to tackle the concerns put forward by those with opposing viewpoints, it might now be more productive to move on to the real issues, rather than indulging in more ego-play.

kittinSol -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 7:08:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks The point is that this anti-semitic tract, like it or not, is mentioned in the charter of Hamas and clearly doesn't face the same criticism, in the more populist arenas of the Muslim world, as it does in the west. Exactly.

RealityLicks -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 7:10:39 AM)
Taking one line out of context? Thought you were better than that.

Owner59 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 7:18:28 AM)
I think she was agreeing w/ you.

caitlyn -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 7:19:44 AM)
Antisemitic by your standards. I guess I haven't reached to point where I'm willing to form those sorts of conclusions based on a few threads.

RealityLicks -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 7:21:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol They want us to forget about the role of the Shoah in the creation of Israel supposedly because it's a past event Not at all, just to remember it when endorsing the apartheid government of Israel. Don't cherry pick. Two wrongs don't make a right. quote: but they won't let go of the injustice they feel was inflicted upon the Palestinian people in the wake of Israel's creation. Either history is considered from all sides, or it's forgotten altogether. The potential for injustice goes back to before 1948, before the Holocaust and in a way, before Balfour. The British toyed with the notion of backing a western pro-consul state way back in the 1880s. Considering the FCO's so-called Arabist leanings, it gives you an idea of the mindset which prevailed.

kittinSol -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 7:37:48 AM)
No, antisemitic by any standards - what standard do you use? I've headbutted on this very issue with RealOne, with term and with Rule on many occasions. It's not because of this particular thread that I, and others, drew that conclusion, but because of many. It's quite right, however, that moderate, sane people should simply ignore their rantings altogether in order to have a civilised conversation.

Real0ne -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 8:01:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol PS: why don't you show such indignation at the three rabid antisemites on this thread? It's... surprising. Respond to extremism? I can't take it seriously, and I've better things to do with my time and energy. Extremists,no matter who or what they represent should be ignored and/or laughed at and made fun of.I do it all the time. Of course that always begs the question which side is really the extremist

Rule -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 8:02:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol No, antisemitic by any standards - what standard do you use? I've headbutted on this very issue with RealOne, with term and with Rule on many occasions. It's not because of this particular thread that I, and others, drew that conclusion, but because of many. It's quite right, however, that moderate, sane people should simply ignore their rantings altogether in order to have a civilised conversation. It seems to me that anyone that denies the evil that exists within all populations is indulging in ostrich politics and is not rational. All populations have criminals, psychopaths and evil übermenschen. It seems to me that any semites that deny that such people exist in the jewish and israeli populations are themselves anti-semites for they are doing their own populations a grievous disservice. This very accusation is leveled against the muslims: that they do not act against the evil that other muslims commit and promote. Ever hear of the saying that the pot contends that the kettle is black, kittinSol?

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 8:17:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol No, antisemitic by any standards - what standard do you use? I've headbutted on this very issue with RealOne, with term and with Rule on many occasions. It's not because of this particular thread that I, and others, drew that conclusion, but because of many. It's quite right, however, that moderate, sane people should simply ignore their rantings altogether in order to have a civilised conversation. It seems to me that anyone that denies the evil that exists within all populations is indulging in ostrich politics and is not rational. All populations have criminals, psychopaths and evil übermenschen. It seems to me that any semites that deny that such people exist in the jewish and israeli populations are themselves anti-semites for they are doing their own populations a grievous disservice. This very accusation is leveled against the muslims: that they do not act against the evil that other muslims commit and promote. Ever hear of the saying that the pot contends that the kettle is black, kittinSol? Who here has asserted that the Israelis/Jews are without fault? Who? Link to the post, and quote the statement, please.

NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 8:29:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol They want us to forget about the role of the Shoah in the creation of Israel supposedly because it's a past event Kittin, what are your thoughts on Russell and Chomsky? Two of the great anti-war and civil liberties proponents - one of them earning the Nobel Prize for Literature through championing civil liberties, individual rights, humanitarian ideals and free thought. Chomsky regularly refers to the Israeli state as a fascist one. One of Russell's last recorded speeches: a permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East. We are frequently told that we must sympathise with Israel because of the suffering of the Jews in Europe at the hands of the Nazis. ... What Israel is doing today cannot be condoned, and to invoke the horrors of the past to justify those of the present is gross hypocrisy. quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol but they won't let go of the injustice they feel was inflicted upon the Palestinian people in the wake of Israel's creation. Either history is considered from all sides, or it's forgotten altogether (and good luck with that). History is being considered from all sides: the Palestinians are indiscriminately using rocket attacks on the Israelis. Think of it like this though, the Israeli government has crushed Palestinian economic and social aspirations: a state has terrorised a whole people in comparison with a minority of people using violence as a means of regaining former land.

Rule -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 8:33:05 AM)
Anyone that starts to scream hell and bloody murder when someone suggests some jew has a smudge on his face cannot be considered a rational person, Hippie. This is what happened in this thread and it is the reason why I have blocked the posts of one such person; I just could not stomach the disgust I felt for such behaviour any more.

NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 8:50:12 AM)
General reply. Solution: 1) Establish a Palestinian state with the frontiers set out by the UN. 2) The withdrawl of the Israeli army to within their designated frontiers. 3) The resettlement of Arab refugees to within their frontiers. 4) Aid programmes to help the Palestinian economy and society recover. 5) The United States government to keep its beak out, as it's a) funding and arming Israel b) using its veto at the Security Council to prevent Israel complying with world opinion. A point to note: some of the most notable critics of the current Israeli government actually welcomed the formation of an Israeli state.

meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 8:52:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Calling people names isn't conducive to an informed and mature debate; but if someone uses a piece of antisemitic propaganda as a way to further their point, it's only fair to call them what they are. What I find troubling here is that pro-Palestinian posters seem to completely ignore the anti-Jewish stance of Hamas and many other organisations, whilst not giving Israel the benefit of her relative restraint in the face of restless terrorism and wars at the hands of her neighbours. They want us to forget about the role of the Shoah in the creation of Israel supposedly because it's a past event; but they won't let go of the injustice they feel was inflicted upon the Palestinian people in the wake of Israel's creation. Either history is considered from all sides, or it's forgotten altogether (and good luck with that). In the interest of furthering this conversation, perhaps we should all retreat, take a deep breath, reconsider things with a cooler head... and charge back for another bout of online jousting [:D] . Is this restraint? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/28/israelandthepalestinians2 Maybe you think it is, I've no idea. As for Hamas, Hamas like many other Palestinain organisations were not pre-conflict organisations, they are resistance movements, formed as direct result of Israeli subjugation of the Palestinians. If they are terrorists, Israel created them. It's all a matter of one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Israel uses state terrorism but pro-Israelis never complain about that terrorism, which is systemic and unrelenting. To plum the depths, if you want to know who is killing who, look at the death rates of both sides, you will find the Israelis are far more efficient than the Palestinians. If you want to know who is stealing land off who, look at the progress of Israeli settlements on Palestinian land, you can find plenty on the internet published by credible and respected sources. Look at who is locking who up without trial. Look at who is torturing who. Look at who is stealing who's water. Look at who is demolishing who's homes. If you think that finding Israeli policies repugnant is anti-semetic, there are enough none Israeli Jews that find it repugnant and are in despair over it so I guess they must be self-hating Jews. I found this quote by Edwina Currie, a former British Minister. I was born and brought up Orthodox Jewish - nothing will ever change that. There are three aspects to being Jewish. The first is genetic - I look Jewish and sound Jewish. The second is cultural - that's to do with family values and care in the community that we generally take for granted. I try to practice this in my own life - giving to charity and caring for others is very deeply ingrained. The third aspect is religion. This is where I part company with the Jewish faith. I find religious mumbo jumbo hard to swallow in any faith. Politically I do not subscribe to the state of Israel and hatred of Arabs. In that sense I don't live a Jewish life these days. Gerald Kaufman, a former British Minister and Jewish. It is pointless to take the issue to the UN security council, since the Bush administration, seeking to win Jewish votes from the Democrats while impelled to support Sharon by Texas Christian wacky fundamentalism, would veto any resolution condemning the Israeli government. Economic sanctions and an arms ban against Israel are the only way of breaking the impasse. Such a policy brought down apartheid in South Africa, which was similarly condemned by the world court in 1971 for its illegal occupation of South West Africa (now free and democratic Namibia). It was sanctions imposed by a President Bush (the incumbent's markedly more sensible and principled father) that forced a rightwing Israeli prime minister, Yitzhak Shamir, to peace talks in Madrid after Bush suspended $10bn of loan guarantees for resettling Russian immigrants in Israel. There are many more. This isn't about anti-semeticism, it is about the rule of international law and civiliszed values. Those same values your country is supposed to be fighting for. Strange how the people who claim such values tend to be blind when it comes to themselves.

Sinergy -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 9:13:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol No, antisemitic by any standards - what standard do you use? I've headbutted on this very issue with RealOne, with term and with Rule on many occasions. It's not because of this particular thread that I, and others, drew that conclusion, but because of many. It's quite right, however, that moderate, sane people should simply ignore their rantings altogether in order to have a civilised conversation. It seems to me that anyone that denies the evil that exists within all populations is indulging in ostrich politics and is not rational. All populations have criminals, psychopaths and evil übermenschen. It seems to me that any semites that deny that such people exist in the jewish and israeli populations are themselves anti-semites for they are doing their own populations a grievous disservice. This very accusation is leveled against the muslims: that they do not act against the evil that other muslims commit and promote. Ever hear of the saying that the pot contends that the kettle is black, kittinSol? What these threads always seem to devolve into are the sorts of squabbling with all sides ranting endlessly about the fact that everything will be hunky-dory if they Other Side stops doing X. Maybe the rational solution is for one side or the other to stop the violence, sit down with The Enemy, and find a solution that everybody can live with. While it is nice to sit all self-important and insist one does not negotiate with terrorists, that simply begets more of the same insanity tomorrow. Co-dependant relationships are built around entities that define themselves by the madness in their relationship, and they will fight to maintain the status quo. What one sees over and over again are people "striving for height (Musashi, Go Rin No Sho)" in order to gain the competetive edge and exterminate or subjegate the opposition, all the while insisting they have to because the other people are forcing them to act that way. Sinergy p.s. I am always reminded of Marvin the Paranoid Android indicating "why stop now just when Im hating it?"

Real0ne -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 12:23:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent General reply. Solution: 1) Establish a Palestinian state with the frontiers set out by the UN. 2) The withdrawl of the Israeli army to within their designated frontiers. 3) The resettlement of Arab refugees to within their frontiers. 4) Aid programmes to help the Palestinian economy and society recover. 5) The United States government to keep its beak out, as it's a) funding and arming Israel b) using its veto at the Security Council to prevent Israel complying with world opinion. A point to note: some of the most notable critics of the current Israeli government actually welcomed the formation of an Israeli state. The creation of a jewish state is as repugnant as creating a tally-ban, catholic, protestant or any other religious state. As far as the us keeping their beak out, I dont see that happening in either of our lifetimes, any more than I see a reasonable peace within either of our lifetimes. Its bad government from the start and nothing more than throwing good money after bad unless its literally ripped out by the roots and done over. The only possibility is a palestinian state but I have no reason to believe that they wouldnt feel they are better off just the way they are.

caitlyn -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 12:45:09 PM)
Aren't you missing a few critical points? 6) Strong measures must be taken against nations facilitating groups bent on the destruction of any Jewish state. 7) There needs to be a plan in place in advance, on what to do if Israel is attacked. 8) Palestinians must police their own, by immediately arresting all those within their ranks that use terror as an instrument of policy.

NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 12:55:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Aren't you missing a few critical points? 'Not sure Caitlyn, what do you think? quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Strong measures must be taken against nations facilitating groups bent on the destruction of any Jewish state. There's a heavy burden of proof needed to justify these "strong measures", and the proof doesn't exist. quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn There needs to be a plan in place in advance, on what to do if Israel is attacked. Just like you'd want a plan in place in the event Outer Mongolia was attacked? quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Palestinians must police their own, by immediately arresting all those within their ranks that use terror as an instrument of policy. Agreed.

Sinergy -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/28/2008 1:13:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn There needs to be a plan in place in advance, on what to do if Israel is attacked. FR: Presumably this would work both ways. Not insisting Israel would attack, but I am sure they would accept an international rule that was fair to everybody. Sinergy

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