RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 3:49:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

As I understand it, being "God's Chosen People" means that the Jews have been selected by God to bear the burden of upholding His laws. If anything, they are held to a higher standard than those who have not accepted YHVH as their God.

It does NOT mean that the Jews are better than others, which is the interpretation of those who are anti-Jew, and their fellow travellers. That interpretation comes from those who are either too intellectually lazy to discover just what "Chosen People" means, or those who deliberately spread anti-Jewish lies.


Getting into religion and invoking god's will is just silly. From what I understsand, YHVH was a tribal god and only had power over the land of Israel. If I remember this ancient story correctly, when a Israeli diplomat went to Persia, he had to take borrows of earth so he could kneel on the earth of Israel to pray because YHVH only had power over the land of Israel and without the earth to kneel on, god wouldn't hear his prayers. He also ordered Moses to lead the Jews in an act of genocide against the Canaanites so the Jews could occupy his land.

The god of ancient Israel bears no resemblance to the Christian god or muslim god and when people say all worship the same god, they should analyse each religion's perception of god, they are all completely different, otherwise god must have some sort of multiple personality disorder.

Anyway, its all bollocks because god doesn't exist.



meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 4:15:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

There are basically 3 positions being argued here. And none of them are inherantly Anti Semetic, though the comments of some seem to indicate it. 

1.  Isreal is illegitimate, and should be destroyed.

There aren't even many Arabs that say this now and even in the beginning, this was not the universal view of the Arabs, it has been portrayed in the west has the universal view for propaganda purposes.

2.   Isreal is legitimate, but must pull back to indefensible borders and try to negotiate with a group commited to option 1.  And iSreal alone should be blockaded.

Israel through an act of aggression occupied Palestinian land and is in the process of ethnically cleansing that land by building new settlements, land confication, the redirection of water to make Palestinain land useless for farming. Everything Israel has done with and to the occupied lands is illegal under every international law, treaty and charter. Israel as occupiers has a duty of care to the occupied people, it completely flouts this pievce of international law and treats tthe occupied people has untermensch ( I use that ironically). Most countries live with indefensible borders, one has to come to normalize ones relations with ones neighbours. It's called peace.

3.  Isreal is legitimate, and has the right to defend itself from constant attack since the 1940s.

Plenty of people in the #2 camp are saying that of course the Palestinains must police themselves and stop the rockets, but they ignore the fact that they aren't.  And that Isreal has many times tried to negotiate.

The Palestinians have no power over their own destiny so there is no incentive to police eachother because all they would be doing was making life easier for the country that is subjugating and enslaving them. For people to live constructive and peaceful lives, they need something more than assassinations, extra-judicial executions, incarceration without trial, collective punishment and metaphotrically whips and chains as an incentive.This is not rocket science psychology.
 
Even Israeli Arab citizens are treated as second class citizens so why should the Arabs trust the Israelis without the Israelis making a meaningful gesture?




Rule -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 4:26:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
Arafat declared an infatada. 

I suspect that Arafat from the moment of his conception was an agent provocateur for the Israeli state, and that Arafat's sole purpose was to subvert and wreck the Palestinian cause.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
And outside arab agents, Began funding the Anti Arafat group Hamas, and paying them per suicide bomb.

The same for Hamas: most or nearly all of them may want the best for the Palestinians, but without a doubt some of those who are pulling their strings are agents for the Israeli that foment and instigate the ineffective attacks with with suicide bombers and tiny rockets.
 
Israeli honcho to secret service: "I want to buldozer that block of Palestinian houses."
SS: "Yes, sir! We will immediately tell our agent in Hamas to sent a couple of stupids to that block of houses to fire a couple of those dud rockets at our country."
 
The same tactic of infiltration and subversion of pseudo opposition forces applies to several other areas of long standing conflict: Northern Ireland, the Basque region, and so on.



Alumbrado -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 5:39:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

They day I give up facing facts and pretend that these 'It's not anti-semitism' hoaxes are true is never going to come.


You wrote this in response to me...
Repeatedly you call me and my Daddy holocaust deniers... put us in league with quacks like David icke and make statements that make it seem like our views were founded in the Protocols of Zion... It is tactics like these that revolt me when it comes to those cannot debate government policy without invoking hate speech. And you are invoking hate speech by more or less putting me in league with Hitler by stating such garbage... the last resort of the scoundrel is to do what you have done in your posts on this thread.

Believe it or not, one can not approve of a government and their actions and still think well of their people. I do not believe the people of Israel would approve of what their government does if they knew the entire truth of it... but from what I have read and heard they do not know the entire truth of it, just like Americans do not know the truth of what their government does. Until everyone has equal standing under the law in Israel they are not a true democracy. Until everyone has a right to work where they will in Israel, and all those born there have equal rights, will I think that Israel deserves any sort of standing.

I believe in a one state solution for Israel. A solution that gives private ownership of the land, a solution that acknowledges that all people are created equal, a solution in which Palestinians are seen as equal citizens. Why is that so hard for Israelis to do? Is it because they believe they are God's chosen people and that God gave them that land? Well, guess what? I do not believe that bullshit. They are no better than the Palestinians, they have no more rights in the eyes of a supreme being, and their treatment of people who are native to the territory they control is shameful



I quoted your speech directly, and your words mirroring the claims of revisionist historians are untrue.  The label that comes attached to such words is your responsibility.
Speak the words, wear the label..... stop pretending to be a victim after getting caught.
As long as someone chooses to spread the same assertions used in anti-semitic propaganda, they are going to be held accountable for what they say.

Now if you want to retract your claim that there were no death squads running killing sprees against Jews in Jerusalem before WWII, say so.
If you want to stop promoting the notion that the problems in the Middle East were all caused by and occured after the founding of Israel, then go ahead and admit that Arabs, Europeans, Christians and Muslims have been waging a campaign of complete genocide against the Jews for well over a hundred years, admit that the Holocaust did occur as recorded in history, and was a significant factor, and that Israel had nothing to do with that, since it didn't even exist.

Clear the air by backing off from your citing of revisionist history , and you can be taken seriously when you join the rest of us in condemning the Israeli government's worst actions, and insisting that both sides stop pursuing the cycle of violence... 


ETA:  You might want to read some of the works of a fellow named Noam Chomsky on this matter...he states, as I have, that the Holocaust did occur and that the government of Israel has manipulated that and the rest of the atrocities against Jews to their ends, just as the Palestinians have manipulated opinions in support of their side.



meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 5:55:50 AM)

Alumbrado, you are being disingenuous again. I have pointed out to you on several occasions how this conflict started and what undermined the trust between the local Arab and Jewish populations. It seems pointless going over it again as you totally refuse to take the facts on board because they are inconvenient to your view of history. Trans-jordania was under the British Mandate, there was no Arab death squads running around on killing sprees pre-war. The British had managed to lose the trust of the Arabs by their support for zionism and its policies and then managed to lose the trust of the zionists. There were both Jewish and Arab terrorists at large trying to murder and undermine each other as well as trying to kill and undermine the British but there was no death squads running around with impunity slaughtering Jews as you imply.

Theese are your words Alumbrado Speak the words, wear the label..... stop pretending to be a victim after getting caught.
 
Perhaps you should take some of your own advice.




caitlyn -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 6:08:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
If a couple of Palestineans on a hillside fire a missile into Israel, I dont see much point in bulldozing a neighborhood of people trying to live their lives in order to teach the "Palestineans" a lesson.

Find the ones who shot the missile, try them, and let them rot in jail.  I would cajole people to not render a bunch of innocent people homeless, while thinking it will teach the missile shooters a lesson.


Or, a Palestinian people that really wants peace, might make the choice to show good faith by finding, trying, and jailing people within their area of control, that lob missiles in to neighboring lands. 



meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 6:15:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
If a couple of Palestineans on a hillside fire a missile into Israel, I dont see much point in bulldozing a neighborhood of people trying to live their lives in order to teach the "Palestineans" a lesson.

Find the ones who shot the missile, try them, and let them rot in jail.  I would cajole people to not render a bunch of innocent people homeless, while thinking it will teach the missile shooters a lesson.


Or, a Palestinian people that really wants peace, might make the choice to show good faith by finding, trying, and jailing people within their area of control, that lob missiles in to neighboring lands. 


Why don't the Israelis show good faith by taking to court those Israelis that murder innocent Palestinians?

http://www.btselem.org/english/Statistics/Casualties_Data.asp?Category=1

Oh I forgot, criminal negligence is official Israeli policy sanctioned by the Israeli government. That makes it all right then.

What the hell was I thinking of, it is one rule for Israel and another for the people they subjugate. Carry on caitlyn, as you often point out, it's the one with the might that is right.



Sinergy -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 8:23:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Or, a Palestinian people that really wants peace, might make the choice to show good faith by finding, trying, and jailing people within their area of control, that lob missiles in to neighboring lands. 



This requires an adequately trained, well paid, and maintained police force and even military (radar sites to track rockets and missiles, etc), with weapons to deal with things like this. 

Are you suggesting that the Palestineans have the sort of infrastructure to effectively do this?  Is this a situation where you are asking subsistence farmers trying to exist in the shadow of Israel's power and wealth, to manage something they have no ability or will to manage?

The Israelis cannot even do it, and resort to bulldozing neighborhoods instead of actually finding the people involved and bringing them to justice.

Sinergy





RealityLicks -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 8:54:35 AM)

What a callous attitude to adopt.  This regime has killed 32 civilians in response to  the loss of one life.  They now plan to escalate their operation which will result in even greater numbers being killed, wounded - and of course recruited to the fightback.  How can you view that situation with such disregard?  Or do you simply think that they won't need their rights where they're going?  The disproportion of this response categorises it not as self-defence but as state terrorism.



RealityLicks -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 9:01:44 AM)

I'm getting sick of you accusing people of anti-semitism without any reason.  Have you no ability to argue your point without this tired routine? 

I think your disregard for the loss of Arab lives over Israeli ones is innately racist.



Real0ne -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 9:11:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinergyNstrumpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

As I understand it, being "God's Chosen People" means that the Jews have been selected by God to bear the burden of upholding His laws. If anything, they are held to a higher standard than those who have not accepted YHVH as their God.

It does NOT mean that the Jews are better than others, which is the interpretation of those who are anti-Jew, and their fellow travellers. That interpretation comes from those who are either too intellectually lazy to discover just what "Chosen People" means, or those who deliberately spread anti-Jewish lies.


You know what, I am reminded of a debate I had with a Jewish friend of mine about Noam Chomsky when I questioned her about what she thought of his work.. she called him a "self hating Jew". If paying attention to intellectuals like Noam Chomsky makes me intellectually lazy... I plead guilty.

And your statements about how Jews are somehow held to a higher standard because they are somehow ethically superior as the law holders of the world is somehow less condescending to everyone, well I will concede, I never heard that one before... but yet again, I will say, any people that believe God gave them land and they have the right to kick other people off of the plot they farmed for generations as a result of this promise... well it is still bullshit to me. I ask mr hippy, if I said god told me that I was to have your land, would you give it to me?

Edited to add... I am also juliaoceania and I try to stay in that nick when posting off topic to keep it from being confusing, but I forgot to log into it



HK is siting jewish theology.  God never did anything.  However lots of people put lots of words in Gods mouth.  When these people start believing their own self indulging propaganda as if God came down and chose them.  Bullshit.  Like any other religion they chose themselves put it in their theology and want everyone else (and themselves) to believe God chose them above everyone else.  

Its even in their prayers, and the hebrew bible, its all over that they think they are better than everyone else.

Like that person said he is a self hating jew, its anyone who takes issue with or disagrees with the jews have some defect and in this case self hating.  After all there must be something wrong with anyone who does not agree with the jews!

Fact is that there are reems of "we are better then thou" jewish theology anywhere you look in their religion.   I love the one where its ok to cheat a gentile.  It doesnt get any better than that.

The kool thing about critisizing jews is that no one needs to lie about them, its all there in black and white and all one needs to do it is point it out and they will do all the lying.

Still reading those protocols and you know I think I am going to make the jewish religion my next in depth study because so far from what I have seen it does not take a large leap of intelligence to profile similarities between the protocols, the prayers, and their bible.

They sort of all sing the same theme.  We are better than everyone, we are the ones who maintain and uphold gods laws and lead the world to them then combine that with the attitudes displayed here.  I have just started reading the protocols and the similarities in character and demeanor are shocking.

Anyway this is a work in progress as I have just started and have not had the time to really get into it to much yet.



quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I'm getting sick of you accusing people of anti-semitism without any reason.  Have you no ability to argue your point without this tired routine?

I think your disregard for the loss of Arab lives over Israeli ones is innately racist.


Thats SJOP.  (Standard Jewish Operating Procedures).    As soon as they bellar out "antisemitist" they already lost the battle.  :)

When you are really bored look up the name "Alumbrado".   When he first came to the site I knew I heard that somewhere before and I was correct.  I heard it when I was researching the founder of the illuminati, weishaupt.

Alumbrado like illuminati means "the enlightened one".  


If there was ever a sin cast on this planet it has to be ALL religions.



juliaoceania -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 9:24:35 AM)

quote:

I quoted your speech directly, and your words mirroring the claims of revisionist historians are untrue. The label that comes attached to such words is your responsibility.


Please quote where I have stated anything hateful toward Jews. Please state where I have stated anything remotely in a way that would state that I believe Jews are bad people or deserve to be killed or that they are "evil". You are just a hate mongerer in my eyes. You would demonize people because they do not agree with you. The funny thing is that I think all governments have a propensity toward evil, and it is the people that they govern in a democracy that are responsible for the evil that their government does. Now, you state repeatedly that my disagreement with the government of Israel, and their policies makes me anti-Semitic... I think this is complete bullshit. That is like saying because I do not agree with George Bush and the Republican party I am anti-American. Just because I do not like fundamentalists and religious nutjobs does not make me anything but logical.
quote:


Now if you want to retract your claim that there were no death squads running killing sprees against Jews in Jerusalem before WWII, say so.


Clarify and provide links to substantiate your claims... The problem I have with people who hate monger without providing any sort of documentation for what they say is that it encourages others to take them seriously.

quote:

If you want to stop promoting the notion that the problems in the Middle East were all caused by and occured after the founding of Israel, then go ahead and admit that Arabs, Europeans, Christians and Muslims have been waging a campaign of complete genocide against the Jews for well over a hundred years, admit that the Holocaust did occur as recorded in history, and was a significant factor, and that Israel had nothing to do with that, since it didn't even exist.


I believe that all the religious nutjobs that would seek to control the region need their wings snipped... whether they be Jews, Christian fundies, or Muslim extremists... my problem with Israel is that they seek to eradicate the people that were living on the soil they seek to control now that they have the larger guns supplied by my tax dollars. Now I also have a problem with Saudis and their treatment of women and support of terrorism that is shored up by petroleum. I also have a big problem with my government using divide and conquer tactics to keep people at each other's throats by arming a small minority to keep in check the larger population... a story that has repeatedly played out during colonial times, and one we still use in the age of globalism.

Talking about the Holocaust to justify eradicating the Palestinians as a people with distinct cultural is a red herring in a discussion about what to do today about the issues facing the region. Like I said, a one state solution that honors both cultures, gives universal human rights, is the best way to promote peace. Negative peace never is sustainable... building walls is not sustainable. The only way to build a peace that is lasting is by building connections between people that promote understanding. Please cite one instance where a negative peace was sustained for a long period of time... walls eventually come down. Walls only prolong the animosity, hatred, and misunderstandings between people.

Interesting, my position is that people need to communicate, people need to get to know each other, people need rights... yours is to rely on something that happened a couple of generations ago to justify what the Israelis are doing today to people that did not even know the Holocaust was going on, and had nothing to do with it. Interesting indeed



farglebargle -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 9:48:49 AM)

"I believe that all the religious nutjobs that would seek to control the region need their wings snipped... whether they be Jews, Christian fundies, or Muslim extremists"

I think everyone would agree.

"... my problem with ***THE JEWISH FUNDAMENTAL EXTREMISTS CONTROLLING POLICY IN *** Israel is that they seek to eradicate the people that were living on the soil they seek to control now that they have the larger guns supplied by my tax dollars."

What's lost here all the time is the simple fact that the GOVERNMENT AND STATE OF ISRAEL is ***NOT*** The Biblical State ***OR*** The People of Israel.

So, when someone goes on, and on how "Israel Must Be Destroyed", in the context of addressing the impediment THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL and the fundie extremists in control, there's nothing wrong with it from where I sit.



Real0ne -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 9:53:56 AM)

quote:


What's lost here all the time is the simple fact that the GOVERNMENT AND STATE OF ISRAEL is ***NOT*** The Biblical State ***OR*** The People of Israel.

So, when someone goes on, and on how "Israel Must Be Destroyed", in the context of addressing the impediment THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL and the fundie extremists in control, there's nothing wrong with it from where I sit.



BINGO!





Politesub53 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 9:54:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
 
The same tactic of infiltration and subversion of pseudo opposition forces applies to several other areas of long standing conflict: Northern Ireland, the Basque region, and so on.


Any proof of this Rule ?  Most Governments infiltrate the other side, yet you seem to be suggesting that they perpetuate the circle of violence, against their own people.



luckydog1 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 10:12:13 AM)

real says

"I nor anyone else here had a damn thing to do with the jew genocide yet we are all expected to pay homage till the end of time for a crime which we did not commit while at the same time semites do not even acknowlege or give a flying fuck about the genocides as much as 10 times their own commited against others races and religions. (I have asked for comment several times and the semites here have side stepped it every time in silence) "

Thats because you are making it up,  When and where exactly are you claiming the Jews slaughtered 30-60 million people because of their genetics?



farglebargle -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 10:21:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
 
The same tactic of infiltration and subversion of pseudo opposition forces applies to several other areas of long standing conflict: Northern Ireland, the Basque region, and so on.


Any proof of this Rule ?  Most Governments infiltrate the other side, yet you seem to be suggesting that they perpetuate the circle of violence, against their own people.



Ever hear the joke -- FBI alerts the State Task Force and Local Task Force that at the Saturday Night Meeting of the Radical Farmers they're going to break up a bomb ring...

So, Saturday Night rolls around at at 8pm, ***EVERYONE*** there pulls out their badge. Turns out there's no consipracy, and no members other than Law Enforcement.

It's funnier when I'm drunk.




Owner59 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 10:28:33 AM)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080301/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians



caitlyn -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 11:16:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
The Israelis cannot even do it, and resort to bulldozing neighborhoods instead of actually finding the people involved and bringing them to justice.


Fair enough. Some might say that the biggest problem the Israelis have with this is the harboring of these people by Palestinians, but that is a point I can't prove so lets just keep it as a talking point.
 
So ... how about one. One guy. How about catching one guy with a bomb he made in his basement, putting him on trial, and throwing him in jail. We aren't talking about totally solving the problem, or rounding up a hundred, or ten or even five ... just one.
 
Sure some group that seems to have the resources to build rockets to lob at Israeli civilians, can manage to round up one guy, right? 



luckydog1 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (3/1/2008 11:33:37 AM)

But Hamas is the ones shooting the rockets, out of Gaza.  There are no people to catch, it is the Government doing it.  They could just say "Stop, today instead of war, we are going to dig sewage lagoons".

I am firmly of the opinion that if the attacks stopped for a month and Sit Ins were conducted.  There would be a final settlement in a matter of months.

That the Palestinains are and were locked in camps and forced to suffer in order to radicalise them by the Arab Leage and its member armies, keeps being ignored.  That Arrafat in the Infantada took all of the kids out of school, creating a hopless generation that is fertile ground for Suicide bombers, keeps being ignored.  That Isreal could if it wanted exterminate the Palestinians, as well as nuke Every major Arab city, but doesn't.  And there is no evidence that it wants to, except for radical Anti Semetism, which has been a part of the problem since the 1910s.  Keeps being ignored.  That the Protocolls have been considered true by the Arabs, and is even part of the Hamas charter, keeps being ignored.  That one side has a publicly stated position of eliminating the other, keeps being ignored.  That water rights have been on the table for negotiation keeps being ignored.  That Isreal has made several major concessions in attempts to make peace, lastly in 2000 with Dayton and Oslo, keeps being ignored.  That any Palestinain who advocates peace gets killed as a collabarator keeps getting ignored.   All of the Arab and Persian Jews forced out of Muslim nations keep getting ignored.  The history of the Dhimi keeps getting ignored.  That there never was a Palestinain  State, and Jerusalem has never been a national capital for Muslims keeps getting ignored.  

The Palestinain People are indeed getting screwed left and right, and have for over 50 years.  But not by the Isrealis.  Stop the attacks which have gone on Daily for every single day of Isreals existance, and begin improving the people lives. 



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