RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 12:04:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And we've also had the only possible solution explained to us...conciliation and  atonement... from one side only.



Oh, come on Alumbrado......let's have a dance, a little shuffle around the floor.......cheek to cheek :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

It is a mess where both sides are engaged in a massive cycle of promoting violence.... both convinced that they are doing what is right to survive.



You see Alumbrado, we actually agree, and you would have seen this in one of my earlier posts if you'd have kept your cool instead of feeling victimised.



No, I've expressed this position repeatedly, while your tactics have consisted of:

Supporting the most extreme PLO/Hamas, anti-Jewish propaganda with a patronizing campaign of 'not seeing' certain posts and facts.
Repeatedly expressing doubt that history unfolded as it has in the matter of anti-semitism and attempts at genocide.
Refusing to address overwhelming proof after asking for and receiving it.
Implying that anyone who believes that Jews are in danger of a repeat of past holocausts must be wrong because they are emotionally invested, or overly sensitive.
Dismissing atrocities and promises to continue genocide with claims of 'hasn't met the burden of proof', and  'mistranslation' .
Conflating the position that some Jewish people believe that they are in danger into false assertions that all Muslims and Arabs were being unfairly smeared.
You've also fabricated quotes (turning Sinergy's 'Jews and bullies' into a claim that I posted that 'Jews were bullies'... 

All while offering the 'solution' that only one side needs to do whatever it takes to make the other side happy.

Perhaps you see this sophomoric game in defense of the most repugnant attitudes on the planet as clever, I see it as something you can play alone.


For example, repeatedly expressing doubt that history unfolded as it has in the matter of anti-semitism and attempts at genocide. Where exactly did I express this doubt? Ditto the rest of that which I've quoted above.

Why not concentrate on the solutions I put forward instead of repeatedly insisting anti-Semitism is all over the board.

On second thoughts, is this your idea of spoiling tactics? You couldn't possibly misconstrue so much of that which is put before you - unless deliberate.

Of course, you can steer this back towards cries of anti-Semitism - it appears you have a few takers. Let's see where this goes.



NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 12:10:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Well, they got the fucking rockets somewhere, and steps need to be taken to ensure the supply dries up.
 


Every country in the world has a defence of some description; defence has been a main-stay of government since the year dot.

Are you seriously considering that weapons should be denied the new Palestinian state when every other country in the world has them?

Of course, I'm bordering on pacifist, so it would suit me fine were everyone to hand in their toys, but it ain't going to happen any time soon, so to expect a new Palestinian state's supply to be cut off is wholly unrealistic.

The time has come for trust, not more suspicion - the Israelis have nukes - they're not going to decommision them and the Palestinians are going to have to trust them - and vice versa.

Ultimately what we're talking here is self-determination: they have a right to a state and a defence system.



NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 1:02:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

We appreciate you giving us the Marxist view on why Isreal must be destroyed. 



This stuff is all over the internet and from respected sources and media outlets. It's no major discovery of untapped information - and it is far from exclusive to Marxist sources.

This one is a comprehensive study and report by a committee of the British Parliament. In it you'll find this:

Under conditions of occupation their development prospects are being eroded largely by the actions of the Government of Israel. These actions - the expansion of settlement on occupied territory and the accompanying security infrastructure, including the construction of a security barrier, a system of separate roads, road blocks, check points, permits as well as restriction on Palestinian commerce and trade, especially from Gaza - are justified by Israel on grounds of security concerns. However, we question the proportionality of many of the measures it takes, the human cost and their effectiveness in achieving long term peace and security that the peoples of Israel and Palestine deserve.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmintdev/114/114i.pdf

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/959750.stm

http://www.palsoc.org.uk/main.htm

http://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/3293

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/british-jews-break-away-from-proisraeli-board-of-deputies-435146.html A report on high-profile British Jews against the occupation and human rights abuses.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5154838.stm another one.

If you were being honest, you wouldn't claim I insinuated "Israel must be destroyed" as you do above. You will understand that my claim is Palestine is being economically and politically strangled - a theme running through the above links and my original post.


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

And we note, you wanted to pretend it was your own. 



I didn't realise there's more than one of you - are you sat typing with a twin or something?

Regardless, I never pretended it was my own. They were comments put up to be discussed. Now, do you want to comment on the comments, or swerve them? If you want to swerve them, why? While you're at it - feel free to respond to the links I've posted above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

With that understanding, your desire to laugh at the situation



You'll find I'm not laughing, Luckydog; although I understand perfectly why you'd accuse me of such.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

and ignore many facts is perfectly clear.



Post one fact I've ignored, and point out how I've ignored it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

In the future please do not commit blatant plagurism NG. 



It was a good article put up for discussion. If you don't like the comments or the manner in which they were posted - then ignore it. Alternatively, you could concentrate on the comments rather than attack the fact they're not mine? In other words, keep the discussion going or spoil it. I await with interest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

The Muslim Arabs in Isreal have and have always had full civil rights.



What exactly do you mean when you say "full civil rights"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Is there really any doubt as to why the left wing wants Isreal destroyed?



Shades don't seem to exist in your world.

It'll be interesting to see if you're so keen to respond to my claims and links supporting the notion that Palestinian politics and economics are being strangled by the Israeli government. Is this something of which you want to steer clear? Do you have an argument in defence of these claims made by various respected sources?



Politesub53 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 2:20:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Caitlyn the rockets fired from inside Gaza are normally the Quassam rockets, these are home made, and not very effective. The type fired from Lebanon are Katyushka style rockets and come from China.


It doesn't matter where they come from ... they come.
 
The point remains the same, if you are going to ask Israel to give up her military might, by removing American support, one has to as least ensure the the other side does the same, no matter where that support is coming from.
 
Hard to believe there is so much resistance to simple common sense. As I told NG ... I think some colors may be showing.


Before you make offensive quotes about colours showing, read your own post. You mentioned where the rockets come from, i just pointed out some are home made and others mainly come from China. You might also like to read the only other post i made on this thread, then see if "colours showing " still stands.



meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 4:34:37 AM)

General point

An Israeli minister today warned of increasingly bitter conflict in the Gaza Strip, saying the Palestinians could bring on themselves what he called a "holocaust".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/29/israelandthepalestinians1



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 4:58:04 AM)

Well, if I were King of the Forest, the first thing I would do would be to develop and implement a comprehensive regional water plan. I'd initiate a UN-enforced arms embargo (with teeth), and provide technical expertise and equipment for desalinization plants, deep-drilling, water reclamation, low-evaporation water transport and irrigation, reforestation, topsoil regeneration, and low-consumption plumbing/sanitary systems.

All this would not only provide jobs, but also provide a common goal for the peoples in the region. I also think communal baths/swimming facilities would be a good idea. It would get people used to the idea of using water for recreation and social bonding. There's something tranquilizing about immersion in water. It's also hard to hate someone who is swimming next to you with no cultural identifiers (dress and symbolic jewelry).

I can tell this is going to be a bad spelling day.



Real0ne -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 4:59:34 AM)



The interesting thing about these israeli/jew threads is it always ends up being the antisemites vs the antigentiles, or in other words the"our people are bigger victims than your people".  Our blood is redder than your blood.

So fuck the genocides your races or religions have suffered "we dont care".  We only care about the genocide we suffered.  

So when we are screaming victim and begging for everyones sympathy you bettter not "critisize" us or you will be condemned an ANTI and we will pass laws even if we have to rig the courts to do so to insure your PC compliance to our insatiable need to be the victim king of the hill!

I nor anyone else here had a damn thing to do with the jew genocide yet we are all expected to pay homage till the end of time for a crime which we did not commit while at the same time semites do not even acknowlege or give a flying fuck about the genocides as much as 10 times their own commited against others races and religions. (I have asked for comment several times and the semites here have side stepped it every time in silence)

I find the use of the ww2 genoicide against the semites to shut down dialog and demonize critics abhorant and repugnant. 

I am still reading those protocols btw, you know the ones that you all claimed were a "proven" forgery, the one where the "rigged" verdict was overturned and a Jewish attorney went along with. (but we wont talk about that now either will we?)  

Its easy to climb up on your soap boxes and condemn others but then at least have the dignity to use to do it from defensible position instead of ducking into the shadows when the hard questions come around.  The old west had a word for that but I cant remember off hand.

Yepperz, LOTS of colors showing alrighteeeee. 






Real0ne -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 5:11:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Well, if I were King of the Forest, the first thing I would do would be to develop and implement a comprehensive regional water plan. I'd initiate a UN-enforced arms embargo (with teeth), and provide technical expertise and equipment for desalinization plants, deep-drilling, water reclamation, low-evaporation water transport and irrigation, reforestation, topsoil regeneration, and low-consumption plumbing/sanitary systems.

All this would not only provide jobs, but also provide a common goal for the peoples in the region. I also think communal baths/swimming facilities would be a good idea. It would get people used to the idea of using water for recreation and social bonding. There's something tranquilizing about immersion in water. It's also hard to hate someone who is swimming next to you with no cultural identifiers (dress and symbolic jewelry).

I can tell this is going to be a bad spelling day.


How UN!  How communist!  It will also get them used to living under a communbist authority and in a communist mindset.

How is water going to resolve a stolen land issue?  Sweep it under the carpet like it never exosted in the first place and all is just going to magically going to be ok?

We (as in those who set up the jewish state), created a situation that in my opinion we knew was going to be a forever unresolvable one.   I for one am not that naive to think that our governments do not know what they are doing or that they somehow do not understand another people. 

So your resolution is build swimming pools and groom them for communism then?



RealityLicks -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 5:32:15 AM)

Hippie, that is an acknowledgement at least, that water is a resource which has been used by the state as a weapon in this struggle.  I don't hold out much hope for getting everyone down to the pool together, cultural restrictions notwithstanding. Nice thought, though.

I'm maintaining that the brake on progress is Israel's steady shift to the Right going back 30+ years.  Despite their longing for peace, it seems that the majority of Israelis can't yet accept the idea of a fully independent Palestine as a neighbour.  Many of the Revisionists probably still dream of Eretz Yisrael and taking back the land on the other side of the Jordan.  They don't believe the Palestinians have any right to even the West Bank.

I think that for all the revolutionary rhetoric, Hamas want to negotiate not fight, but  in the current climate, what will ever be on offer?

With South Africa, the regime refused to budge until the international community launched a cultural and economic boycott that starved it into a shift in consciousness.  I think that will have to happen before any water redistribution programme takes place.



caitlyn -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 5:36:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Before you make offensive quotes about colours showing, read your own post. You mentioned where the rockets come from, i just pointed out some are home made and others mainly come from China. You might also like to read the only other post i made on this thread, then see if "colours showing " still stands.


Please show me where I mentioned where the rockets came from. What I said was:

6) Strong measures must be taken against nations facilitating groups bent on the destruction of any Jewish state.

I left it open-ended on purpose, my original intent being to all inclusive enough to shy off deflections.

When I say colors showing, I meant it. Look at NorthernGent's post above. He is now going on a diatribe about how Palestinians will need a military because Israel has one.

Tell me where in my statement above, it says the Palestinians can't have a military? Hell, a peaceful Palestinian government without ill intent for it's neighbors can have ten aircraft carriers for all I care ... them not having a military was never the point expressed. That is a clear deflection on his part.

So, I'm sticking with my colors comment. A plan was presented by a poster here. I pretty much agreed to every single item on that plan without reservation, and added a few very reasonable ones in return. The response was a crawfish, a deflection, a denial, and now a flat out misrepresentation if what I actually said.

My work is done. The position of the Palestinian supporters has just been clearly illustrated out of their own mouth.



Real0ne -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 5:48:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

6) Strong measures must be taken against nations facilitating groups bent on the destruction of any Jewish state.



Come on caitlyn, I asked this before. 

Who are you to talk about measures to protect jewish state while we are in process of destroying the iraqi state? 

How about the tally ban state? 

Do they not share the same right of protection from "groups" bent on destoying them as the jewish state?

Bush and others admitted iraq had nothing to do with the attacks on this country.

So whats up with this?






NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 5:51:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Well, if I were King of the Forest, the first thing I would do would be to develop and implement a comprehensive regional water plan. I'd initiate a UN-enforced arms embargo (with teeth), and provide technical expertise and equipment for desalinization plants, deep-drilling, water reclamation, low-evaporation water transport and irrigation, reforestation, topsoil regeneration, and low-consumption plumbing/sanitary systems.

All this would not only provide jobs, but also provide a common goal for the peoples in the region. I also think communal baths/swimming facilities would be a good idea. It would get people used to the idea of using water for recreation and social bonding. There's something tranquilizing about immersion in water. It's also hard to hate someone who is swimming next to you with no cultural identifiers (dress and symbolic jewelry).

I can tell this is going to be a bad spelling day.


First and foremost, someone has to get the two sides 'round a table and recognise one another's right to a state.

Sadly, for as long as the United States needs oil in that region, it isn't going to happen.

Edited to add: having said this, there is actually an agreement in place - an agreement supported by intent would be useful.



Politesub53 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 6:23:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Before you make offensive quotes about colours showing, read your own post. You mentioned where the rockets come from, i just pointed out some are home made and others mainly come from China. You might also like to read the only other post i made on this thread, then see if "colours showing " still stands.


Please show me where I mentioned where the rockets came from. What I said was:

6) Strong measures must be taken against nations facilitating groups bent on the destruction of any Jewish state.

I left it open-ended on purpose, my original intent being to all inclusive enough to shy off deflections.

When I say colors showing, I meant it. Look at NorthernGent's post above. He is now going on a diatribe about how Palestinians will need a military because Israel has one.

Tell me where in my statement above, it says the Palestinians can't have a military? Hell, a peaceful Palestinian government without ill intent for it's neighbors can have ten aircraft carriers for all I care ... them not having a military was never the point expressed. That is a clear deflection on his part.

So, I'm sticking with my colors comment. A plan was presented by a poster here. I pretty much agreed to every single item on that plan without reservation, and added a few very reasonable ones in return. The response was a crawfish, a deflection, a denial, and now a flat out misrepresentation if what I actually said.

My work is done. The position of the Palestinian supporters has just been clearly illustrated out of their own mouth.


quote:

Hard to believe there is so much resistance to simple common sense. As I told NG ... I think some colors may be showing.


Caitlyn the above was in the post where you quoted me, so i am addressing this point only. I dont see how making a point about where roockets come from make me " Show my colours "

Lets make this easy for you. You made a comment about do you think Hammas and Hezbollah grow their own rockets in the garden behind their homes. ( Post 361 ) I just pointed out where the rockets come from, no more than that, suddenly i`m a Palestinian supporter. Like i said, read all my quotes on this thread and show me where i have taken either side.



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 6:44:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Well, if I were King of the Forest, the first thing I would do would be to develop and implement a comprehensive regional water plan. I'd initiate a UN-enforced arms embargo (with teeth), and provide technical expertise and equipment for desalinization plants, deep-drilling, water reclamation, low-evaporation water transport and irrigation, reforestation, topsoil regeneration, and low-consumption plumbing/sanitary systems.

All this would not only provide jobs, but also provide a common goal for the peoples in the region. I also think communal baths/swimming facilities would be a good idea. It would get people used to the idea of using water for recreation and social bonding. There's something tranquilizing about immersion in water. It's also hard to hate someone who is swimming next to you with no cultural identifiers (dress and symbolic jewelry).

I can tell this is going to be a bad spelling day.


First and foremost, someone has to get the two sides 'round a table and recognise one another's right to a state.

Sadly, for as long as the United States needs oil in that region, it isn't going to happen.

Edited to add: having said this, there is actually an agreement in place - an agreement supported by intent would be useful.

Um, Lebanon has no oil, the Syrian reserves are miniscule, and Jordanian production is trivial. (see CIA fact book). So why don't you get off the "US needs oil" BS.

You say the two sides need to get around the table and recognize each other's right to a state. In other words, that particular goal has been impossible to achieve for 60 years, so let's keep banging our heads against the wall by make that item #1 on the agenda. You've heard that famous definition of insanity, right?

I say, do the water deal first. Develop Palestinian agriculture. Raise the standard of living. Lessen tensions. Start building multi-cultural settlements.

No doubt some will laugh at the communal bath/swimpool notion. Pools in the US were segregated not so very long ago. I have, very recently (in the past few years) met people from Japan, Ghana, Turkey, Korea, Argentina, Jamaica, Ukraine, India, China, Germany, the UK, Denmark, Australia, and a couple others which I cannot remember, at my local YMCA. Gets hot enough, Israelis and Palestinians and whoever else will be in those pools together. When people see others playing with their kids, or sitting in the spa or sauna relaxing and talking, it's a positive influence, which leads to invitations to dinner, shared leisure activities, shared schools, and so on. It's a natural process, and the people involved won't even guess that there is a subtle "imposed" dynamic at work. Integration is inevitable given such positive reinforcement.



RealityLicks -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 6:58:00 AM)

Hi PS,  Just saw on the Guardian website that yesterday an Israeli city was hit by Iranian-made Grad missiles.  Its the first time these have been used in the current spate of attacks.  My far from expert guess is that this was definitely a Hamas attack, owing to their known links with Tehran.  Small splinter groups, launching attacks with homemade rockets are frequently lumped under Hamas' banner.  You had your facts right, but escalation was always inevitable.

Israel is now planning a massive offensive on the Gaza Strip.  One Israeli man was killed by Hamas, in a week that has also seen 32 Palestinians killed, including 8 children.  The army is being  mobilised to strike in what the defence minister calls a "bigger holocaust":

quote:


"they will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defence minister, told army radio.

Shoah is the Hebrew word normally reserved to refer to the Jewish Holocaust. It is rarely used in Israel outside discussions of the Nazi extermination of Jews during the second world war, and many Israelis are loath to countenance its use to describe other events.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/29/israelandthepalestinians1

Looks like we're in for another bit of "self-defence" by the poor and persecuted, equipped with helicopter gunships and all the other paraphernalia of 21st Century warfare.  Hundreds will be slaughtered.



NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 7:02:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

First and foremost, someone has to get the two sides 'round a table and recognise one another's right to a state.

Sadly, for as long as the United States needs oil in that region, it isn't going to happen.

Edited to add: having said this, there is actually an agreement in place - an agreement supported by intent would be useful.



Um, Lebanon has no oil, the Syrian reserves are miniscule, and Jordanian production is trivial. (see CIA fact book).



The United States has made destabilising the wider Middle East its ME foreign policy for decades - or at least destabilising the Arab and Muslim sections of the Middle East. Primarily because the last thing they want are economically strong Arab nations, which will be achieved through controlling their oil and economy. The United States government does not want to see peace in that region; peace equals prosperity and an end to US dominance in the area.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

So why don't you get off the "US needs oil" BS.



This must be the thread where posters can't seem to keep themselves together and maintain a cordial conversation, then?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

You say the two sides need to get around the table and recognize each other's right to a state. In other words, that particular goal has been impossible to achieve for 60 years, so let's keep banging our heads against the wall by make that item #1 on the agenda.



Where there's no will, there's no way. Ultimately, they need to recognise one another's sovereignty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I say, do the water deal first. Develop Palestinian agriculture. Raise the standard of living. Lessen tensions. Start building multi-cultural settlements.



In order to develop Palestinian agriculture, they need to be given the room to breathe, rather than be subordinate to the Israeli authorities. Having said this, I agree with your central theme that the Palestinians need opportunity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

No doubt some will laugh at the communal bath/swimpool notion.......When people see others playing with their kids, or sitting in the spa or sauna relaxing and talking, it's a positive influence, which leads to invitations to dinner, shared leisure activities, shared schools, and so on. It's a natural process, and the people involved won't even guess that there is a subtle "imposed" dynamic at work. Integration is inevitable given such positive reinforcement.



I agree - encouraging relations at the grass roots is a must. It is already happening in various guises - community projects etc. This is only one part of the story, however, and there needs to be commitment from the top, which will mean negotiations by politicians and stakeholders from both sides and require interest groups to maintain a distance.



RealityLicks -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 7:06:31 AM)

How much of that was copied?  [sm=biggrin.gif]



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 7:09:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

How much of that was copied?  [sm=biggrin.gif]
Who are you talking to?



NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 7:12:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

How much of that was copied?  [sm=biggrin.gif]



All of it. I copy everything I type on these boards.



Sinergy -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/29/2008 7:17:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I also think communal baths/swimming facilities would be a good idea. It would get people used to the idea of using water for recreation and social bonding. There's something tranquilizing about immersion in water. It's also hard to hate someone who is swimming next to you with no cultural identifiers (dress and symbolic jewelry).



[tongue in cheek]

Until they start fighting over the Rubber Ducky.

The Roman Catholic church will object to this.  It stinks of Roman Imperialism and the threat of grown men seeing other men's penises, and fears of their suppressed homosexuality, is one of the reasons people didnt take baths for hundreds of years after the Roman Empire collapsed.

[/tongue in cheek]

Sinergy



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