RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (Full Version)

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RealityLicks -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 5:53:17 AM)

Probably made easier by the settlers occupying Palestinian land.



meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 6:28:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Your post is hysterical and a complete travesty of the facts.


As it relates to the Middle east, who was in bed with whom, during the Second World War?


I hope you are not refering to the zionists willingness to work along side the Nazis to reach their goal.[sm=hair.gif]

If you are referring to the Arabs, then both the allies and the axis powers had various Arab groups on their side depending on the ethnic group of Arabs and their political aims, both wanting access to Arab oil.

There were also a significant amount of Jews (British and European) fighting in British uniform, many later went to join the zionists immediately after the war to set up the Israeli state, some fighting against the British.

As for who was in bed with who, it was all a little more complex than a simple Ménage à Trois.



juliaoceania -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 7:28:03 AM)

quote:


Thank you. People need to be reminded of the facts. That they are so easily manipulated by the lobbies whose interest it is to destroy Israel worries me. Why is it so easy ?


What facts, what lobbies? I would like a list of these lobbies that are so powerful that they control our government and our policies.... I would like to know what the fruit of these lobbies has been. If what you state was based in reality our government would not be sending billions to Israel, we are paying for the life they enjoy to the tune of about 27,000 dollars per year per citizen. There is no more powerful lobby than the Israeli one. I have the right to voice a dislike for sending so much of my tax dollar to people who use it to bulldoze families out of their homes. Now, like I said, I do not like the things my government does all over the world, it doesn't make me anti American to not agree with a government. It does not mean I hate their people. It means I dislike the inhumane policies of the government they allow to represent them. You have stated the same within the context of your posts.

When Israel isn't sucking off the teat of the American taxpayer, that is the day I will not feel a sense of obligation to speak out against their occupation of other people's land, but since I am paying for it I feel I have the right to say whatever the fuck I like about it.



DupedDom -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 7:44:57 AM)

Did you ever ask yourself, why doesn't the rest of the muslim world help out the Palestinians?? They cannot get work visa's in Saudi Arabia, Syrai and other countries will not allow then to work or immigrate to their countries. All these people want is a place where they can live without fear of persecution. The world agreed to give Isreal to the jewish people, the palestinians just have to deal with it. It doesn't serve the Islamic countries to allow peace in Palestine, so the propagate hate and war. There Islamic neighbors tried to wipe them off the face of the earth and with minimal help from the US, they beat them back fiercely. They will not go gently into the night. Islamic countries hate us for supporting Israel. If their neighbors left them alone, we would not have to support them. Your anger should be aimed at the radicals that want to destroy Israel. Unfortunately, we have few freinds in that area of the world, so for now it is a strategic relationship that we have to keep up.



kittinSol -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 7:49:40 AM)

Did anyone ever suggest you shouldn't have the right to say whatever you liked? I don't see quite why you're arguing so vehemently over your 'right to talk' against America's policy towards Israel.

It's quite obvious we're arguing from completely different perspectives; I see yours. The point is, now, do you see others' ?



juliaoceania -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 7:51:53 AM)

quote:

Did you ever ask yourself, why doesn't the rest of the muslim world help out the Palestinians??


You do realize that many Palestinians are Christians, right?


Anyways this is a red herring, it has nothing to do with anything in my post.


quote:

The world agreed to give Isreal to the jewish people, the palestinians just have to deal with it. It doesn't serve the Islamic countries to allow peace in Palestine, so the propagate hate and war.


Name all the people in the world that agreed to this? BTW, many Jews lived in Palestine before World War II without any animosity toward them... lived in peace. It was only when an invasion force displaced these people from their homes that they became angry. No one had a right to make families move off their land at gunpoint.



kittinSol -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 7:57:41 AM)

Whatever the circumstances in which it was created... Israel exists. You can argue over whether it was wrong to give displaced Jews after the Holocaust a land to be safe in until you're blue in the face. Israel is a nation. The point now is to find a solution to the violence: are you forgetting that Israel is a subject of violence, and that its citizens are victims of it on an everyday basis? The violence... it goes both ways.

Any ideas?



Sinergy -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 8:12:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

but death to every Jew on the planet



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paranoid

I imagine the Palestineans feel exactly the same way about the Isrealis that you do about whoever you claim wants the Jews to die.  The difference between you and I is that I do not want anybody to die. 

I dont have any problem with the Jews.  What I have a problem with are the actions of the Isreali government.  This is a government that has actively spied on the United States for decades.  They have then taken what they are able to glean and traded it to the Soviet Union so the Soviet Union would allow Jews to emigrate to Isreal.  With the fall of the Soviet Union, the Isreali government has fostered the spying of information from the United States and sold it to the Chinese.

I dont mind if you stridently insist that this has something to do with religion, but doing so simply shows obtuse zionism and a lack of understanding of the history of the region.

Sinergy




RealityLicks -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 8:24:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DupedDom

Did you ever ask yourself, why doesn't the rest of the muslim world help out the Palestinians?? They cannot get work visa's in Saudi Arabia, Syrai and other countries will not allow then to work or immigrate to their countries.


Lebanon, Syria and Egypt have all taken millions of Palestinians who fled as refugees during the Six Days War 40 years ago.

quote:


All these people want is a place where they can live without fear of persecution. The world agreed to give Isreal to the jewish people, the palestinians just have to deal with it.


The world agreed no such thing.  It agreed borders for the two countries, then Israel illegally occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip (as well as Sinai and the Golan Heights) and it still effcetively controls the Jordan Valley.  And lets not forget the occupation of Lebanon.

Israel extends beyond its legal borders because political extremists and religious fundamentalists demand it.  They have convnced most of their population that it is this expansionist policy or certain death.  For that reason, Israel is still allowing settlers onto Palestinian land.  This has resulted in mandate after mandate from the UN but Israel will not remove its illegal settlers - totally against the rule of law.

quote:


Islamic countries hate us for supporting Israel. If their neighbors left them alone, we would not have to support them. Your anger should be aimed at the radicals that want to destroy Israel. Unfortunately, we have few freinds in that area of the world, so for now it is a strategic relationship that we have to keep up.


If it was right to condemn Saddam for his invasion of Kuwait, why is the Israeli occupation of Palestine not condemned?  Either all countries are bound by the rule of law or none are.  Should some countries get to break the law simply because they are onside with western interests?  If so, why wouldn't everyone else hate them and the west?

The Palestinian elected party called a ceasefire and requested peace talks, Israel agreed and then sent Apaches and jet fighters up to"neutralise" targets in Palestine with missiles, killing scores of innocent bystanders.  During a ceasefire.  That is why Hamas will not renounce armed struggle - would you?  Still, after election, Hamas did not make the destruction of the state of Israel a stated objective, a meaningful gesture towards peace but Israel will not recognise them or talk to them. 

But if Britain could talk to the IRA, why can't Israel talk to Hamas?  When the electorate returned Sinn Fein leaders to Parliament, no-one prevented them attending.  If we'd just fired missiles at them, I'd have the same objection to my gov't.  Instead we sat and talked and now the IRA have decommissioned their arms.

Now you tell me, what's the first step to peace in Palestine?



G9o5d4 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 8:36:35 AM)

This may sound a little rude to most of you, but there are two way we can solve the mess in the middle east. The most effective is to wipe it off the face of the earth, leave nothing standing, nothing living and that is the only way to bring peace to that crap hole, or every outside country pull out, build a wall around it and let them sort it out on their own, winner take all. These people have been fighting since day one and they will never stop no matter who has the bleeding heart and no matter who sends them money. They like to kill each other in the name of their god, makes them feel good.[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m28.gif[/image]



RealityLicks -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 8:37:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Whatever the circumstances in which it was created... Israel exists. You can argue over whether it was wrong to give displaced Jews after the Holocaust a land to be safe in until you're blue in the face.


What about a land for Palestinians to be safe in? And let's face it, how many Holocaust survivors are around wanting to move into the West Bank?  Most of the recent immigrants are economic migrants from Russia, who aren't really Jewish.   The settlers are all religious fundies and many provoke unrest, like the so-called "hilltop youths".


quote:

The point now is to find a solution to the violence...   Any ideas?


Yes.  Israel should move back to its pre-1967 borders and sit down with Hamas and other representatives. 



meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 8:42:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Whatever the circumstances in which it was created... Israel exists. You can argue over whether it was wrong to give displaced Jews after the Holocaust a land to be safe in until you're blue in the face. Israel is a nation. The point now is to find a solution to the violence: are you forgetting that Israel is a subject of violence, and that its citizens are victims of it on an everyday basis? The violence... it goes both ways.

Any ideas?


Kitty Sol if someone kicked you out of your home because they were homeless, would you care about their history?

Just a few quotes from Ben Gurion just to show you the zionist founders of Israel knew what they were doing.

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
 
“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”

Now tell me the Israelis are innocent victims of circumstance. The Palestinians didn't commit genocide, the Germans did and other European collaborators so why does the west satisfy its guilt trip by making the Palestinian Arab pay for what was done in Europe?



Sinergy -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 8:44:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Israel exists.



Isreal exists.

Isreal illegally occupies neighboring lands.  Bombs neighboring lands.  Isreal refuses to deal with their neighbors with anything but weapons.  Isreal spies on their allies.  Isreal would not exist if it was not for the vast amount of foreign monies pumped in, the bulk of which comes from the United States.

The term "apartheid" was used to describe South Africa's policies dealing with the Kafir (black) population of their country, and most civilized nations refused to trade with South Africa until they ceased treating the Kafirs as second class citizens, kicking them off their lands, or engaging in active or passive genocide.

Substitute South Africa with Isreal and Kafir with Palestinean and clarify what is different in their treatment of the locals.

As I said, I dont have a problem with the Jews, I have a problem with what the Isreali government does, and civilized countries allow them to get away with.

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 8:54:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Whatever the circumstances in which it was created... Israel exists. You can argue over whether it was wrong to give displaced Jews after the Holocaust a land to be safe in until you're blue in the face. Israel is a nation. The point now is to find a solution to the violence: are you forgetting that Israel is a subject of violence, and that its citizens are victims of it on an everyday basis? The violence... it goes both ways.

Any ideas?


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Human beings should be treated with humanity - whatever you think they did.



It takes one side to step up to the plate and put out an olive branch, stop calling people terrorists and find out what they actually want, and work out a way to peacefully coexist.  What you see rampant in the current administration, Isreal, Myanmar, Iraq, kindergarten playgrounds, is a demonizing of the other side and a refusal to sit down and actually work things out so everybody wins.

That would be humans being treated with humanity, whatever [Jews, Bush, kindergarten bullies, whatever] thinks they did.

Sinergy



xBullx -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 9:25:18 AM)

In the end always remember where Chess was invented..................

Slide of hand and slip of foot...............

Just when you think you're fucking them, their fucking you..................

The key is to know and use your opponents moves to your advantage and try and force his next move into your hand....................

Right now the political future of Washington is more the reason of Iranian rhetoric than anything..........

Attempt to surmise their political motives ahead of their ideals of conquest. Do you think they would risk attacking Israel openly and giving the US and its Allies reason to cross the border, that would only inspire the Muslim extremist to their corner (and they have them already) and the majority of Muslims would move aside as the US and Europe, not Israel crushed them? But if a preemptive strike through fear and panic occurred, they would be able to rally most all Muslims, China and Russia against Israel and the West.

Just think about it, Iran couldn't whip an Army(Iraq) that the US and Britian ran right the fuck over. They know they can't win an actual combat situation, unless they get help because we step on our wangs, again.

Think and live well,

Bull



xBullx -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 9:29:32 AM)

You maintain your sense of peace with olive branches and I'll maintain mine with superior firepower and in the end will see who is fuckin' your pet................................


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

It takes one side to step up to the plate and put out an olive branch, stop calling people terrorists and find out what they actually want, and work out a way to peacefully coexist.  What you see rampant in the current administration, Isreal, Myanmar, Iraq, kindergarten playgrounds, is a demonizing of the other side and a refusal to sit down and actually work things out so everybody wins.



quote:



That would be humans being treated with humanity, whatever [Jews, Bush, kindergarten bullies, whatever] thinks they did.



I'm curious, you sit there all judgemental over the use of name calling (terrorists and such) and go on about prejudicial accusation and yet mixing the groups Jews, Bush and "Kindergarten Bullies" is acceptable to you as coincideable terms?

Interesting.......



meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 9:38:49 AM)

Something I said at the beginning. Israel should be able to whip the Iranian army alone in open warfare with the military hardware they have. (OK That is hypothetical because they aren't neighbours.) I'm sure Iran would love the USA to make an attack on them, what better way to recruit more hardliners than to have the USA prove they are at war with all muslims. According to many defence analysts (an ex head of the CIA for one) and certainly many European intelligence agencies, the Iraq war has strengthened Al qeada and loosely associated muslim hardline groups. An attack in Iran as well and the muslim extremists will be making whoopee. Not for getting that Islamic extremists groups are feeling bullish and feel that Hezbollah have found Israel's achilles heal by using guerilla tactics against them.



kittinSol -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 10:08:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

It takes one side to step up to the plate and put out an olive branch, stop calling people terrorists and find out what they actually want, and work out a way to peacefully coexist.  What you see rampant in the current administration, Isreal, Myanmar, Iraq, kindergarten playgrounds, is a demonizing of the other side and a refusal to sit down and actually work things out so everybody wins.



Which is always asked of Israel, and never of the other side.

quote:



That would be humans being treated with humanity, whatever [Jews, Bush, kindergarten bullies, whatever] thinks they did.



You're putting the Jewish people in the same category as who?




luckydog1 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 10:17:49 AM)

Reality licks has a few things incorrect.  First of all, His numbers are way off base.  the number is disputed, but the officiall UN # is 711,000 Refugees that left Isreal.  Not Millions to several countries.

The West bank and Gaza and Half of Jerusalem was invaded and occupyied by Jordan, and Egypt with the approval and help of the other Arab states. in 1948.  Not by Isreal.  They held it for 20 years.  The Arabs prevented Palestine from forming in 1948.  And continue to today

Jordan is the only Arab state that gave citizenship to the Palestinains, the states Reality licks listed, refused and continue to resue to allow Palestinians to immigrate.  Also not a single one of them has even 1 million Palestinian refugees, not the millions each reality claims.  A perfect example of how people lie about this issue.  reality has probably heard that millions of times, and doesn't realise he was lied to.  But it is pretty easy to look this stuff up, so the ignorance is fairly inexcusable..

Wikipedia is not the best source, but every point from this wiki quote is Footnoted, so its valid,

"
In 1957, the Refugee Conference at Homs, Syria, passed a resolution stating that "Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees' right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason (Beirut al Massa, July 15, 1957)."[15]
The Arab League issued instructions barring the Arab states from granting citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland".[16]
Syrian Prime Minister, Khalid al-Azm, wrote in his 1973 memoirs:

Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees [...] while it is we who made them leave. [...] We brought disaster upon [...] Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave. [...] We have rendered them dispossessed. [...] We have accustomed them to begging. [...] We have participated in lowering their moral and social level. [...] Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon [...] men, women and children-all this in the service of political purposes.

Jordan is the only Arab country which uniformly gave citizenship rights to Palestinian refugees present on its soil. "



It is rather disengenouis to argue Isreal should go back to the 67 borders, while arguing that it was ok for pre 67 Arabs to be working for thier anihalation, adn constantly attacking them.  Arabs don't give a shit about the Palestinian people, its really sad. 




kittinSol -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 10:21:01 AM)

In most of the middle-east, being Palestinian is a stigma. It's a little bit like being Jewish in the rest of the world. None of which are right.



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