RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear

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luckydog1 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/22/2008 8:21:07 PM)
Hippie kinster hit the nail on the head this time. It is possible to be anti Semetic and a critic of Isreal.

meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 5:09:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Meat did you even read your link? "What is most important to keep in mind, however, is that the Zionists who negotiated with the Nazis were doing so to try to save Jewish lives. Unfortunately, they were negotiating with people who had no regard for human life, and European Jewry suffered anyway. " You equate that with being a recruiter for the SS and wanting to implement the German Scientific solution for the Jews, all over the world? Claiming something as common knowledge in the UK doesn't really mean anything to me. I did read the link but you didn't read my post. I said it was an effort to explain it away.

meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 5:32:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado It has been made perfectly clear that addressing the Holocaust and the fanatic campaign to eradicate all Jews is not a defense of Israel's government policies, because the 1880's European anti-semitic leagues, the pogroms from 1066 to the Lutheran bigotry of the 1540s, the 1940s Holocaust, *and the 1928 Muslim Brotherhood death squads came before* there was any government of Isreal to have a policy. It has always been about killing the Jews. People can indulge in revisionist history, and atrocity denial all they want, trot out forgeries like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, invoke the Rothschilds, cite David Irving, pretend that it isn't anti-semitism, whatever.... and the facts are still not going to change. And those who stick to the facts and deal with the reality of how Zionism and the government of Isreal's attitudes came to be, are still going to be the only one's working toward peaceful solutions. You write the 1928 Muslim Brotherhood death squads came before there was any government of Isreal to have a policy.** Israel didn't exist so you are right on that fact but you are being disingenuous because the seeds of the conflict had be sown well before 1928, in 1917 with the Balfour Declaration. Balfour being a religious nut who was more interested in the Jews as the chosen people than the good governance of Trans-Jordania. His pro-zionist stance encouraged both legal and illegal immigration of East European and Russian Jews into the region, and the buying of land by Jews none resident to the region, thus upsetting the peaceful co-existance of the resident Jewish, Christian and Muslim population. Balfour's encouragement of a Jewish extremist group inevitably caused a reaction by groups that started to feel threatened by the sudden influx of foreigners into the region who had no regard for the local culture and lived completely separate lives and created a parallel economy. I know you like to ignore my posts because they make pertinent points that you find inconvenient but your mock outrage looks really quite silly.

Owner59 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 6:17:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Hippie kinster hit the nail on the head this time. It is possible to be anti Semetic and a critic of Isreal. "Sometimes anti-Zionism is anti-Zionism. Much of the time it's anti-Jew." Uhhh Duhh! Of course it`s possible.He also said that sometimes it`s not the case.You`re a weal winner,wucky.Don`t change,don`t ever change... Your bias lucky, is as naked as a fish.Not sure what you were trying to do by linking middle eastern Arabs with the nazis,but is was pure bullshit and vile propaganda. Why don`t you mention Prescott Bush,father of G.Bush Sr and grandfather to G.Bush Jr ?He helped financed the nazis in their rise to power and profited from them long after the world knew what the nazis were up to. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar "George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany." "The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism" "The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy." "The debate over Prescott Bush's behaviour has been bubbling under the surface for some time. There has been a steady internet chatter about the "Bush/Nazi" connection, much of it inaccurate and unfair. But the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power. It has also been suggested that the money he made from these dealings helped to establish the Bush family fortune and set up its political dynasty." Your contribution to the discussion is far from benevolent lucky.Your type of bias and mindset is typical of those who don`t want a solution in the middle east.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 7:13:35 AM)
~FR~ Could someone point me to the thread on Iran/Israel current relations and such?

meatcleaver -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 7:24:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf ~FR~ Could someone point me to the thread on Iran/Israel current relations and such? It stopped when people just made wild prejudiced claims about Iran and refused to put one iota of responsibilty for the situation in he ME at Israel's door. That is when other people (myself included) started to give an alternative point of view. It's a pity it keeps coming back to Israel but until Israeli supporters recognize that not all the responsibilty for the situation in the ME is down to grotesque, uncivilized, violent muslims, then there will always be people willing to hold up a mirror to Israel and its western backers.

luckydog1 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 10:12:14 AM)
Aww little owner59 is upset. First off, all I never said that anyone who criticises Isreal is an anti semite. Never said anything of the sort. Realitylicks like to change what people say, then argue against it. It seems to be his main style of making an argument. And it does seem to work to confuse some of the slower thinking posters...... Some crap from the Guardian back before the election. As ususall I find all I have to do to counter your argument is to read the entire link that you cite, past the vauge blurbs at the begining. For instance, "While there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, the documents reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), acted as a US base for the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler in the 1930s before falling out with him at the end of the decade. " What this article deliberatly leaves out is that Hitler nationalised Silesian steel before the invasion of Poland. And that Thyssen ended up in Auswitch, because he broke from Hitler very early. Your not even reading the links you cite, which just seems bizzare to me, but its a regular thing. Now this, "Your bias lucky, is as naked as a fish.Not sure what you were trying to do by linking middle eastern Arabs with the nazis,but is was pure bullshit and vile propaganda. " Is of a completely different Caliber. For you to defend Nazis and Hitlers allies is beyond reprehension. And its hard to think it is is ignorance on your part. As every link I cited was absolutly true. Even Meat and Reality try to explain it away as not a big deal. You deny the reailty. What except anti Semitism, would promt you to defend Nazis, and people who admired his Scientific Solution to the "Jew problem". Seriously, what except for Anti Semitism would have you defending actuall Nazi ties and support. Have you ever looked up who I was refering to or glanced at a history book? None of it is secret or disputed. None of that is Bullshit. And the only Vile propaganda is coming from you while you defend Anti Semetic Nazi supporters....Is that saying how you would kick anyones ass who called you a Nazi Supporter, sort of like a Homophobe wanting to beat up gays? So lets recap. Owner says that there were no ties between the Arabs and the Nazis, specifically the Mufti of Jerusalem, that is bullshit and vile propaganda to discuss the actuall, documented, never secret, proudly publically declared facts. To attempt to change the story he brings up a very poorly written Political article, making very vauge sensational charges, while noting that there is not even a sugesstion that Prescott was sympathetic to the Nazi cause. And he wants to compare owning one share in a german company, run by a man who was put into Auswich to being an active SS recruiter, who publically admired the "Scientific Solution to the Jew Problem". What can you be called except an Anti Semite and Defender of Nazis, owner....I don't care if I get moderated over this. I have to speak.

mnottertail -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 10:23:10 AM)
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo--- Anybody checked a globe today? Still there? How we doing? Ed Koch

kittinSol -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 10:30:30 AM)
Having existentialist doubts, Ron?

mnottertail -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 10:44:01 AM)
Nah, I have seen a couple of mother of all wars come out of that area, and frankly I was less than impressed, not something I am going to go see the sequel to. I do not doubt Israel's ability to withstand the calvary camels of Iran. If it makes the ayatollah feel good to bluster, let him have at it, I beleive that Isreal is not inclined to side with their vision, and will take any number of steps to prevent it, quite successfully, if one judges by past performances. Zubin Mehta

batshalom -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 11:10:55 AM)
I have been intentionally not joining in this debacle, erased a few very long responding posts in fact, but realized there is no way to argue against vehement ignorance. There is no need. I have been reading this thread with incredulity and dismay. I shake my head and wonder what the world is coming to, with such venemous arguments about a country that most of the posters have never even visited (much less understand) comparing Israel with an image that exists only in their western minds. Ah well. It is the way of things I suppose. It is very easy to judge and sentence from an armchair. quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail I do not doubt Israel's ability to withstand the calvary camels of Iran. If it makes the ayatollah feel good to bluster, let him have at it, I beleive that Isreal is not inclined to side with their vision, and will take any number of steps to prevent it, quite successfully, if one judges by past performances. Ron, I could not agree more. And thank you for not using "intellectual rhetoric" to make it sound like any more or any less than what it is.

Sinergy -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 11:41:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Remember the circumstances in which Israel was created; I do. quote: and remember that the land that's being disputed today had no clear status sixty odd years ago. If you want to get technical, before Europeans made colonies of the region, and after the fall of the ancient Persian civilizations, you had nomadic tribespeople wandering around the desert or doing small scale agriculture. "Clear status" is a European construct similar to the US idea of Manifest Destiny. Sinergy

NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 11:42:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom comparing Israel with an image that exists only in their western minds. Possibly. You can bet your life the same applies to Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians etc. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest, of course, that the Israeli government has been backed into a corner, and that the Palestine/Israel problem was born and bred in Central and Eastern Europe. It's well documented, also, that the Israeli government is stealing Palestinian land and bulldozing their homes. If I was being really honest here, I really don't care, but there remains an irrefutable truth: the Israeli authorities are stealing from people in the must overt way possible. There is a growing movement over here among prominent Jews - liberals I suppose - who feel a connection to Israel and are ashamed of the actions of the Israeli government. It's nothing to do with anti-Semitism; it's more a case of being opposed to Fascism - ironic eh. Edited to add: when the Americans adopt a more isolationist approach - what then? The Israeli government should be looking towards conciliation while they have a decent hand to play with.

Justme696 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 11:45:56 AM)
quote: If you want to get technical, before Europeans made colonies of the region, and after the fall of the ancient Persian civilizations, you had nomadic tribespeople wandering around the desert or doing small scale agriculture. Sinergy small overview http://www.science.co.il/Israel-history.asp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Sinergy -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 11:59:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Justme696 quote: If you want to get technical, before Europeans made colonies of the region, and after the fall of the ancient Persian civilizations, you had nomadic tribespeople wandering around the desert or doing small scale agriculture. Sinergy small overview http://www.science.co.il/Israel-history.asp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel Next time read your sources. "The State of Isreal is a concept central to Judaism." The comet Halley-Bopp being tailed by alien spacecraft was a concept central to the beliefs of the Heaven's Gate followers. This does not constitute history or fact. Sinergy

batshalom -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 12:42:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Possibly. You can bet your life the same applies to Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians etc. Very true. quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent There is a growing movement over here among prominent Jews - liberals I suppose - who feel a connection to Israel and are ashamed of the actions of the Israeli government. It's nothing to do with anti-Semitism; it's more a case of being opposed to Fascism - ironic eh. It's not just in the UK, NG. It's in Israel too. Like with most governments, however, it takes a near overthrow to move things from status quo. The problem underneath that one is that there are so many things to fight (from the suicide bombers, which is one hell of a problem and nearly inconceivable if you've never experienced / witnessed such a thing, much less have to deal with it daily) to governmental in-fighting to corruption to the normal stresses over other middle eastern "neighbors" who would like nothing better than to wipe out Israel. There is so MUCH. quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Edited to add: when the Americans adopt a more isolationist approach - what then? The Israeli government should be looking towards conciliation while they have a decent hand to play with. Perhaps. Perhaps not. It is impossible to explain this to you if you have not experienced it. Is it better to do things one's own way and perish in the attempt, or is it better to play roulette and die by centimeters instead?

Alumbrado -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 1:03:44 PM)
quote: (O59)Not sure what you were trying to do by linking middle eastern Arabs with the nazis,but is was pure bullshit and vile propaganda. " quote: (LD)So lets recap. ****** says that there were no ties between the Arabs and the Nazis, specifically the Mufti of Jerusalem, that is bullshit and vile propaganda to discuss the actuall, documented, never secret, proudly publically declared facts... ... And he wants to compare owning one share in a german company, run by a man who was put into Auswich to being an active SS recruiter, who publically admired the "Scientific Solution to the Jew Problem". What can you be called except an Anti Semite and Defender of Nazis, owner....I don't care if I get moderated over this. I have to speak. It is well documented history. And everyone in this thread who has claimed that the Holocaust and the centuries of attempts to kill Jews by Arabs, Muslims, and Europeans did not occur as recorded, is embracing the anti-semitic, Holocaust denier position. For them to then go running to the Mods when correctly labelled as anti-semites, and Holocaust deniers, still isn't going to change the facts. They have declared their position and should wear the label. The OP threat from Iran to eradicate Israel was not 'caused' by the Zionists any more than the loss of a Chess game was caused by the 100th move. It has always been about killing Jews.

NorthernGent -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 1:19:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom It's not just in the UK, NG. It's in Israel too. Like with most governments, however, it takes a near overthrow to move things from status quo. Yeah, it's fair to say the establishment has some serious tools at its disposal, but slow, steady progress can be made. We see coverage of Jewish and Muslim groups working together, and I'm a big believer that people are roughly the same the world over - people want to get their heads down and enjoy their lives. I've actually spent a lot of time in the UAE and Oman - my Sister lives in Dubai - and from personal experience, let's just say the Western view of Arabs doesn't marry up with reality. I can imagine many people in Israel/Palestine are sick of the fighting. quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom The problem underneath that one is that there are so many things to fight (from the suicide bombers, which is one hell of a problem and nearly inconceivable if you've never experienced / witnessed such a thing, much less have to deal with it daily) to governmental in-fighting to corruption to the normal stresses over other middle eastern "neighbors" who would like nothing better than to wipe out Israel. There is so MUCH. Granted, I haven't lived in that environment - point taken. Out of interest, what makes you think the Arabs' ultimate goal is to wipe out Israel? and what does "wipe out" mean?

Owner59 -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 8:38:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: (O59)Not sure what you were trying to do by linking middle eastern Arabs with the nazis,but is was pure bullshit and vile propaganda. " quote: (LD)So lets recap. ****** says that there were no ties between the Arabs and the Nazis, specifically the Mufti of Jerusalem, that is bullshit and vile propaganda to discuss the actuall, documented, never secret, proudly publically declared facts... ... And he wants to compare owning one share in a german company, run by a man who was put into Auswich to being an active SS recruiter, who publically admired the "Scientific Solution to the Jew Problem". What can you be called except an Anti Semite and Defender of Nazis, owner....I don't care if I get moderated over this. I have to speak. It is well documented history. And everyone in this thread who has claimed that the Holocaust and the centuries of attempts to kill Jews by Arabs, Muslims, and Europeans did not occur as recorded, is embracing the anti-semitic, Holocaust denier position. For them to then go running to the Mods when correctly labelled as anti-semites, and Holocaust deniers, still isn't going to change the facts. They have declared their position and should wear the label. The OP threat from Iran to eradicate Israel was not 'caused' by the Zionists any more than the loss of a Chess game was caused by the 100th move. It has always been about killing Jews. I haven`t denied anything. I`m denying that there is a connection between Bosnians/Croatians and middle eastern Arabs.Your saying so is pretty fucked up. The Germans had some Arabs to help them,but there was no more of that,then there was in France,Poland,Italy,Bosnia or anywhere in else in Europe .That didn`t make all French people or all Bosnians nazis.It didn`t make all Pols nazis collaborators either. To put any of that on the Palestinians is ridiculous. lucky`s post: "In September 1943, intense negotiations to rescue 500 Jewish children from the town of Arbe in Croatia collapsed due to the objection of the Mufti who blocked the children's departure to Turkey because they would end up in Palestine. The children were sent to Auschwitz.[45]" (that`s your font size,btw) and trying to connect Arabs to it is disgusting. That is the vile propaganda of your`s,that I was talking about. Arabs had nothing to do with Auschwitz.Shame on you for trying to connecting the two. To label all Arabs as anti-Semites and nazi collaborators is just plain naked bigotry.It`s also intellectually lazy,vicious and not true.And a product of those who never want an end to the conflict. Introducing any of this into the debate complete propaganda, at it`s most vicious. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I`m aware of what happened in Bosnia and Croatia(Europe)during WWII. When the Serbs were doing the same thing in the 90s,my favorite Mayor of NYC Ed Koch was excoriating Jews who called his radio show to express the idea that the Bosnian Muslims(the primary victims of the Serbs)had it coming to them,because of what happened during WWII. He was livid,and tore each one of them a new ass hole. Koch was called a self-hating Jew and worse, by a few of the callers.But he was right and shook off the comments.A good and honorable man. Would I be called an anti-Semite, for saying Koch`s callers were saying hateful stupid,ugly,bigoted things? By stupid people,maybe.But then it would be a compliment,a win-win. Those folks in Bosnia had nothing to do with what happened during WWII,some 60 plus years ago. To think that that these people of today`s Bosnia would have to suffer the mass murders and rape camps b/c of what happened in WWII is/was unacceptable. That`s the same kind of blind bigotry that lucky has expressed toward all Arabs.And the devil`s work. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe that neither side has clean hands,but to put it all on the Palistinians is not honest.It`s also a sure fire way to insure that no resolution is ever found.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Iran: Israel will soon disappear (2/23/2008 9:01:01 PM)
Well I have seen that debate before, and it goes no where. I wonder if at admin levels, these same arguements break out in some countries? The only thing I am worried about is nuclear capability in the hands of extremist. I do not care which side it is on, but the fanaticism is the scary part. Should Iran be allowed to have nuclear weapons? If so, have that not already said they would like to see Israel destroyed, and are committed to just that? Regardless of whether someone believes Israel is the bad guy in land grabs, they already have nuclear weapons so we cannot keep it out of their hands. I fear that Iran may very well use the nuclear capability in some way as a weapon against Israel, which will spark another huge war, and may very well include multiple nuclear releases. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf ~FR~ Could someone point me to the thread on Iran/Israel current relations and such? It stopped when people just made wild prejudiced claims about Iran and refused to put one iota of responsibilty for the situation in he ME at Israel's door. That is when other people (myself included) started to give an alternative point of view. It's a pity it keeps coming back to Israel but until Israeli supporters recognize that not all the responsibilty for the situation in the ME is down to grotesque, uncivilized, violent muslims, then there will always be people willing to hold up a mirror to Israel and its western backers.

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