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Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/20/2008 8:22:27 PM   
FemmeSensei


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            I wouldn’t be surprised if every submissive-wired (or even switch-wired) individual heard the question at one point or another inquiring whether they are a slave or a submissive, especially if you are looking for a relationship on whatever level that meets your needs.  I have been asked on occasion if I am looking for a slave or a sub, and have been asked “I’m not a slave, do you think that’s bad?” or “Do you think I’m a submissive and not a slave?”  I think a lot of people struggle with the concept.  I have heard individuals say “I am not a slave, I just think it’s wrong to abuse someone that way” and “I am not a slave because I am not a doormat” or any number of other responses, made with passion, indicating there’s more misconception than direction in this arena.
           I believe that you can be a slave and have a good head on your shoulders, be independent, and strong.  I believe you can be a doormat and a submissive but not a slave.  I think tops and forums on this subject have only added to the confusion with self-directed extremes.  I have heard it declared that a slave has no mind of their own and no autonomy what so ever, that they are rewritten completely and changed forever.  This is very extreme, and some people really wish that to happen, but in its extremes it alienates a lot of people.  I have heard it said that submissives are only submissive in the bedroom or they are often brats or secretly in control and “topping from the bottom”.  I think this is also a little extreme the other direction.  There are hundreds of different extremes and ideas and opinions voiced and a lot of individuals like to be the experts when they apply specifically to what they are looking for with no attempt to universalize their definitions.
           I think most girls and boys that find they are “bottom wired” are somewhere in the uncharted gray areas between the extremes presented of slave and sub, and there are no easy labels to aspire to.  We banter around TPE now, and “brat” and a dozen other terms that all fail to create a reasonable scale.  With the extreme slave on one side scaring people, and the extremely casual submissive on the other side lacking the control someone may desire, many find themselves in the lifeless gray area, unable to say yes to submissive or slave.
           I hope to alleviate some of that doubt with a clear definition.
           I believe there is a singular important criterion that makes a submissive a submissive, and a slave a slave, and it has everything to do with the act of submission.  In this definition you can have an extreme submissive that wants to be tied up for hours and any other scene you can imagine, and you can have a slave that wishes to be a domestic and have very little other activity, avoiding pain and everything else.  Both can exist, so what is the clear-cut way to define it?
           The answer may lie in examining the roots of what it is to be a slave.  It goes beyond the slavery of the 19th century that gave the US the Civil War, and I would argue few people would even desire that model in real life.  Instead we journey back to days of antiquity, to the days of Alexander, of the reign of Pharaohs, to the Asian Dynasties and harems.  Perhaps even to the servants of ancient Greece.  These are more often the models I think individuals fantasize about when inventing a scene in their minds.  The girl with the silken outfit, a collar around her neck, dancing with jangles to the delight of her lord and his favor later that evening and the men who were sworn protectors of their queen and saw to her every need in and out of closed doors both fit the modern model fairly well.  We can reach back into the artistic work of Boris Vallejo and to the world of Gor and Ann Rand for additional models that are adapted to real life.
           In this classical view of things we really find the slave’s predicament and where some of modern BDSM bottom’s fantasies merge.  A slave in a classic sense was either captured or purchased by a powerful or wealthy lord.  The picture I see is a girl in a cage peering out at potential owners and hoping a nice person purchases her.  In the modern sense this translates into abduction fantasies and forced training fantasies, all compelling but most are too afraid to actually make such things real.  Nevertheless they are compelling fantasies in a lot of people, scene-wired or not.
           A slave’s predicament is that they will be bought and purchased.  Their opportunity to make a difference in their owner is limited to trying to catch the eye of someone they feel might be a good owner, and to attract them enough to make the purchase.  When they are bought they are owned and it is as simple as that.  In a classical sense a free slave would likely just get captured by someone else (who could be worse than the first owner) and authorities would even return a slave to the rightful owner.  In every sense of the word they were property.
           This does not mean even in a classical sense that a slave was mistreated.  Some slaves were lovers of their Lords or Ladies, some were labor, some protection, and every role in between.  Let’s discuss this from a purely business standpoint since truly, owning a slave was a business transaction (or military campaign, but nevertheless the argument withstands).  A slave is an investment.  It is in the best interests of the owner to improve the slave for later resale, to make them more efficient at their task, to make them stronger, smarter, healthier, while maintaining control so they don’t escape.  It would be a bad owner, and a bad business person, who would harm or ultimately kill a slave so long as the slave was providing monetary gain.  If a slave was COSTING the owner money it may be a wise decision to off the slave, sell the slave, or perhaps to invest something to improve them.  Again, so long as the slave was providing more value than it was costing it makes no business sense to abuse them.  They are a commodity, simple as that.
           This world still holds in the modern sense with one substantial difference:  In the modern sense the slave still has a choice (at least in free-world countries like the United States, Britain, most of Europe and Canada, and many others).  This choice is whether to serve and who to serve.  In a classical sense this choice did not exist…they were captured or they were purchased and the choice was just the fleeting chance to catch the eye of someone or risk escape.  Aspire as we will to fantasy worlds or classical models what we have is reality and the reality is the slave has a choice.
           So what does this mean in the argument of a slave vs. a submissive?
           The key factor is when does a slave exercise this right to choose, and when does a submissive exercise this right to choose?
           I believe the key difference is that a submissive exercises the right to choose to submit whenever asked, forced, coerced, or in a situation to do so.  A slave makes one choice in the beginning of the relationship with his or her owner and that choice carries from that point forward.
           Does this mean a submissive has lots of limits and a slave has no limits?  The answer is no.  Remember that a slave has the right to choose who to submit to and can determine if their owner has the same limits that they do.  At the point they submit their destiny is in the hands of the owner and they have to rely on making a good decision.  A submissive may have no limits at all however as a submissive they exercise their right to submit each and every time the situation arises.
           In a sense this definition further defines the parameters of serving for a slave and a submissive, and it is not a negative or a positive to either side.  When a submissive is in service the focus is on the act of submission, the gift of making the choice to submit.  For a slave, the submission is already done, and instead the focus is on the service itself and the devotion to the act of serving.  Submission is out of the way, obedience to some extent is out of the way, and it is rejoicing in the service.  It is a slight difference in the focus of the person that has submitted.
           Does this definition mean that a slave cannot be a brat?  The answer to this is also no.  Even in a classical sense the slave sometimes could resist or even just be a brat to their owner, and it is well within the parameters of the definition.  A slave can brat but when the owner exerts his or her will on the slave the slave backs down and submits…again, the choice was made long before.  Is there still room to be forced?  Yes.  Is there still boundaries to be stretched?  Sure.  But the contest of wills ends shortly after it begins based on the fact that the slave has chosen to be a slave.  There may even be comfort in the fact that the slave knows already they will not win, though they could alter the parameters by speaking up and being heard.  In a submissive role it isn’t a guarantee that the submissive will submit each and every time and for some the struggle for submission might even be part of the thrill.
           Can a slave turn into a submissive and can a submissive turn into a slave?  The answer to this, based on the definition, is a resounding yes in the free world.  A slave can choose to convert the relationship to a submissive-based relationship, though this would likely be more the act of the owner than the slave based on the desire to submit just once.  For a submissive all they would need do is decide they are through resisting and give the ultimate surrender and let that choice govern their future choices.  Again the owner would have to carry their end of the bargain in this case, and realize the submission is there instead of looking for the resistance each time.
           Do a submissive and a slave require a different style of owner?  I believe they do.  This topic opens a whole new treatise so I will not go deeply into it now, however I believe the slave equation breaks down if the owner is not of strong will and the relationship lacks the necessary structure, and I believe that the Master/Mistress of a submissive needs to pose the question for submission and be prepared for even a token resistance in the case of a submissive.  Again, a discussion for another time.
           Does this at all imply a submissive or a slave is more loving or more devoted?  No, not at all.  In every sense this is a definition of what serving is about and more importantly where the act of submission takes place for the individual.  It doesn’t have to do with the level of devotion or the level of trust, but instead the choice of submission and destiny for the subject.  The slave gives it once and surrenders the choice while the submissive continues to choose and remains autonomous.
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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/20/2008 8:27:59 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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This is very well written and a much heavier breadth of response to the old question- but it is yet just one perspective and again I could bring tons of people forward who would refute your ideas here very easily.

The idea that a slave chooses once and a sub chooses every time I have found to be baseless.  I don't know of any long term subs who think every time they follow an order or ritual or seek to please that they simultaneously question "Do I consent to this?"

I also know very few slaves who have been in long term Ms relationships who have not seriously gone through a period of consideration on whether the relationship is best for them.

I've also known plenty of slaves who were allowed a lot more autonomy than a lot of submissives out there.

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/20/2008 8:29:46 PM   
faerytattoodgirl


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i am neither.  i am a servant/personal assistant aka handmaiden.


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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/20/2008 11:42:22 PM   
adoracat


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i say i'm a submissive.  Daddy says i'm a slave.

kitten, who only cares that she's HIS.

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/20/2008 11:46:09 PM   
laurell3


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Your definitions don't fit for me and I think that's the point of all these threads.  It makes no difference what word you attach to your role as long as you and your partner are satisfied that it works for both of you.

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 12:08:58 AM   
DaddyAndCarina


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I am learning there are alot of things I think I am not , but I am ......I have been told for a long time I was a slave .... I  didnt see it till Master came into  my life ... and he put deffinition into my  being

< Message edited by DaddyAndCarina -- 2/21/2008 12:11:04 AM >


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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 12:17:49 AM   
petpete


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i think FS is making clear that point from my point of view laurell.. She has just about summed up that its all in the mind of what we really think we are in very descriptive wording.. There have been occasions of which some dominants have tried to toy with submissives by making them feel inadequate to fill the role that maybe they wanted to manifest on them.. To all it maybe somewhat great to exert our role but it maybe be somewhat psychologically painful and hurt someone's self esteem and wether they can a suitable partner to please if they cant fulfill it. i can assure all that has happened to myself and it definetly can aggravate me to be criticized and toyd by third parties of i do not wish to be of any entity of anyway... Well written to the Lady (FemmeSensei) and much appreciated by submissives of the likes of myself and some newbies who either way can be misslead to feel this way.

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 12:53:41 AM   
Justme696


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what does the wired mean behind submissive, if I may ask?
(does it mean owned?)

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 2/21/2008 12:54:22 AM >


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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 2:39:23 AM   
Paulsgirl


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I am a slave. I have had many dominants before Master. He allows me my entire freedom sexually and simply requires honesty. He assigns me organisation of all play activitities and privates scenes to please Him. I was formerely Prinsexx here and my reactance and resistance to being slave was discussed openly here on the forums.

The difference for me is purely experiential and personal. I have no limits with Master as He instibctively knows what my limits are. (However i was asked, by another's dominat, in the presence of my Master, if i was submissive or slave. I replied that i was slave. The other dominant seemed to understand the difference within his own terms of reference and commented to my Master that my demeanour was entirely 'slave'.

I can and i do do activitiies which i have not been willing to do, unable to do, with anyone else. I love Him and adore Him and feel it is also a deeply spiritual and karmic relationship. I feel He is the strongest person psychologically that i have ever known. He masters many mors aspects of my life than those we engage in of a bdsm.glbt nature. As my Master he enables me to be slave.

When i was a submissive i did feel a far gretaer sense of control and limiktation of my behaviours and what was expected of me.
Thus as a slave, with this Master, i feel myself to be who i really am.


< Message edited by Paulsgirl -- 2/21/2008 2:53:58 AM >


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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 2:40:19 AM   
adoracat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

what does the wired mean behind submissive, if I may ask?
(does it mean owned?)


i took it to mean the wiring of the brain....some people are wired to be dominant, and some people are wired to be submissive, and some are wired to where they can go either way (or both).  just like saying "i was born this way, with these tendencies".

kitten, helpfully

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 2:46:31 AM   
probablyknowme


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see, I thought it meant hooked up to a TENS...but then I'm wired wrong!

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 2:49:20 AM   
adoracat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: probablyknowme

see, I thought it meant hooked up to a TENS...but then I'm wired wrong!


i've always said i was wired bisexual.

when i was asked why, my response was....

"well....sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you dont"

kitten, who likes chocolate and coconut

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 3:23:45 AM   
HerLord


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Damn.. I want a cigarette.
There have a plethora of posts on this topic. Even after reading tireless threads and the same answers how may times, It really is as simple as, it is only a title. What you are and how you behave is in accordance with how you feel. and vice versa. Lots of argument material and negotiating will eventually leave you empty about a solution.

Here is what Dictionary.com has to say.
slave 
–noun



1.
a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.



2.
a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.



3.
a drudge: a housekeeping slave.  
sub·mis·sive
–adjective



1.
inclined or ready to submit; unresistingly or humbly obedient: submissive servants.



2.
marked by or indicating submission: a submissive reply.  
Not even an actual entry for the noun of this word, however however point 1 makes it clear that this is the point that addresses the question. So what does the difference mean? Perception.

I am neither. I am dominant. My Love is Sub. I say this in point of to me a slave is devoid of right of will. A sub has a right to will, and position to employ said will. My Love does as told, not absent of thought, but merely as substance to please.

Alot confusing.

My love does what's done because it makes me smile. My Love is wise to my wants and needs, and wastes not the thought of "Do I want to do this?" It is done because it is what is expected to better us both. Being a dominant I must maintain my eye the goals of the household to ensure that between us, we get where we are going.

This doesn't help much but did any of it really? All you really got was alot of answers that apply to someone elses situation, a few definitions, and maybe a wiseass remark or five thousand. I hope that through all of it you get some understanding of your scenario, how it applies to you, and wholeness in your wisdom.

So. Are there any slaves here. No. I believe the actual right of choice has all but defaulted all slaves to subs. according to LEGALeze. To use a word like slave now days is almost poor taste. It certainly insults those who are/were REAL slaves. You know the ones bought, sold and traded for horse feed... So to be a slave in the "scene" is truly no more than an obedient sub. to the extreme. Slavery in this country is outlawed. Any actual "slaves" have the ability to get authorities involved. Understanding that is not always an option available to them... (being locked in a basement and raped). Outside of these extremes. No. Slaves will not be found here. To all those who disagree... ehh... get over it.

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 3:54:40 AM   
lronitulstahp


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i'm whatever the natural inclination of a relationship dynamic leans towards, depending on how the Dominant partner decides...

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 4:41:00 AM   
MissLily


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I try not to bother with the difference between the two words.

I normally will take a sub in because eventually he's to become a slave of Mine (more permanent). So when I'm asked if I'm looking for subs or slaves, well.... Both I should imagine... And since I keep My subs for a long time, does that make him a slave? See? that's why I try not to bother...

Miss Lily

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 4:51:09 AM   
colouredin


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I am guilty of pidgenholing slaves in the past, and i freely admit that its out of my own ignorance more than anything else. since meeting Sir and f i have a totally differant view of the M/s dynamic and i guess really i now just see it that its a definition that they like. I guess its about whatever makes you feel most comfy there isnt a rule as to what a sub is or what a slave is or yadda yadda and i sometimes think too prescise a definition has negative affects and is used as a tool for exclusion and belittling. I consider myself submissive, but i dont activly think do i consent as LA said rather I pretty much do what im told without question I think i consented when I asked to be Sirs sub and so I pretty much up and do it right away fundemetally because I want to please him cos it makes me feel good. I also think that even in M/s relationships the slave can say no way am i doing that, Sir always says of his and f's relationship, I love her and I know how far to push he would never ask of her something he knows that she would find too hard to do, for example she has a phobia of the cane after a really bad experaince, so tho Sir will use it on her he definatly holds back and asks her if she is ok with it. These are all human relationships at the end of the day and a label like sub or slave doesnt take away from that. 

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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 4:52:44 AM   
RCdc


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It's a fairly well written essay on an age old discussion.  But the only thing it leaves behind is your interpretation of what is what.  It's not gospel and for many, it doesn't hold entire truth.
 
If I am pressed to identify - for example here on CM you must register as something - so I label as submissive.  But as Em previously stated - and unlike your sweeping generalisation - I do not submit over and over with every new task or occurance that Darcy decides, I simply submit to him once and that is all that I ever do.  I do not get to 'choose', I get to obey.
 
And what about all the little facets inbetween?  Where do pets, daddy's girls, toys, objects, kajira, boys, sluts, service persons, the indentured etc - where do these all fit in your little scenarios?  None of these have to be slaves nor submissives.  And yet all of these fit somewhere in between, or are exactly as you have decribed.
 
Slave vs. submissive debates will go on ad nauseum -  Your essay is all cool and empowering but it's just another generalisation on one true ways of BDSM when the truth is there is no one true way - and that is what makes BDSM and Kink so much fun.  Why do people get so caught up in defining a label which is a multifaceted as a diamond instead of communicating on a one to one basis?  Are some people just lazy?  Or are others so used to having everything done for them in the nanny states that we exist in with fast food, ready meals and everything so .now.now.now. that they have lost the ability to have patience?  Are people now wanting spoonfed kink?  Ready processed McBDSM?
 
It's great you have worked out slaves and submission and what it means for you, but to me - it's just another idea swimming in a sea of 'This is how it is'.  And for many people, that means a slow death by drowning and sufforcation.
 
the.dark.


< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 2/21/2008 4:55:14 AM >


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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 6:18:07 AM   
IrishMist


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I am neither.
I am both.
I am so much more than just a word.



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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 6:35:40 AM   
sambamanslilgirl


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let's see yesterday, i was submissive ...today, i'm His daughter ...tomorrow, i might be His piggy milkcow slut ...this weekend who knows

the titles are so interchangeable these days - does it really matter?  only within your relationship


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RE: Are you a slave or are you a submissive? - 2/21/2008 6:47:55 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: adoracat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

what does the wired mean behind submissive, if I may ask?
(does it mean owned?)


i took it to mean the wiring of the brain....some people are wired to be dominant, and some people are wired to be submissive, and some are wired to where they can go either way (or both).  just like saying "i was born this way, with these tendencies".

kitten, helpfully


oh yes..ofcourse...lol

my wires short circuited :P

thank you for explaining :)

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