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Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 7:51:39 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Today, Jonathan King was quoted as saying, "“My time inside has been some of the best in my life.
“Terrific companionship, education, revelations about the world. No taxes, no traffic jams, no mobiles.”  To those of you who do not know of Jonathan King, here is a link that will explain the man better than I can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_King

Apparently, during his stay at the Majesty's request, he is not liable to pay taxes on his earnings which include monies from royalties. If a person is still able to profit from earnings while being inside, why aren't they privy to paying taxes as well? This, I do not understand.

This isn't my main query though and Jonathan King's comments just highlight what I can see as a growing concern regarding our prisons in the UK/US and we're long overdue a reform.

My question is:

If you were to have a hand in the reforms, what would you change and why?



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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 8:02:55 AM   
kittinSol


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We should work towards a non-custodial penal system. Prison doesn't work.



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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 8:29:44 AM   
MissMorrigan


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And for those that can't be rehabilitated among society, such as paedophiles, and violent criminals that have repeat offences, escalating each time, what would you advocate for them?

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 8:34:03 AM   
kittinSol


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It's obvious that the whole system needs renovating, and that we can't release violent criminals back into the bosom of society. But in the light of the growing number of prisonners in Britain (how many now? Eighty, ninety thousand?), I think it's time to go back to the drawing board.

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 8:44:06 AM   
MissMorrigan


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I agree with you that the whole system is egregiously flawed and failing, even more so when outside private companies, such as Security 4 (I think that's correct) were contracted to provide security, but that's just one minor area in an already vastly overstretched system.

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 8:44:20 AM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

And for those that can't be rehabilitated among society, such as paedophiles, and violent criminals that have repeat offences, escalating each time, what would you advocate for them?


At a cost of over $35,000 (US) per inmate, per year, I'm certain it would be far less expensive, more effective, and indeed safer for the public (consider, of course, that prisoners are part of the public) for them to live and work under strict electronic monitoring devices.  Frankly, it would be cheaper to wire every prisoner to record their every action and move in both audio and video, than it would to keep them in a brick and mortar prison.  We also eliminate University of Crime that prisons have become.  Prisoners who commit violations of the regulations of their release could then be subject to even stricter, harsher sanctions including forced employment in camps or other institutionalized situations.

Pedophiles, for example, are only threats to children when exposed to children.  They can work productive jobs and maintain homes just fine so long as they have extremely structured living situations.  Sending them to prison where they become prison bitches doesn't 'fix' them; it ensures that they have an even stronger violent streak, hate adults even more, and become far more careful about how they practice their activities.

I agree, the whole system needs an overhaul.  Remove the retribution element from prison, and instead focus on containment and rehabilitiation.

Stephan


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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 8:50:37 AM   
camille65


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A self sustaining system. Growing their own food and manufacturing what they are able to in order to supplement their needs.For those w/o a life sentence, classes and education ranging from the basics of home economics to areas that will assist in future jobs. Taught by inmates or volunteers.Using the positive skills that some have when they enter the system and continuing to use that.Work, working at jobs inside and for those that it applies to working outside on work release.Using that money by putting it back into the system as well as 'garnishing' some to be put into an account so that they have something when they are released. Too many have nothing when released and feel there is no way to succeed or even manage in the outside. It is hard for them to get jobs, housing, establish credit etc which leads back to recidivsm (ack, sp).I'm not saying hold their hands by any means, but I am saying make them work for their future, make them work for their 'extras'. Thats just off the top of my head.

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 8:58:36 AM   
kittinSol


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A general societal refurbishment would help as well. The growing number of prisonners speaks to me of a deep malaise that needs to be addressed from the roots up. Prison works at snipping the top of the weed; but it grows back up.

I see no reason why non-violent offenders should be jailed, for example. I wonder whether the increase in prisonners is due to drug offenses? Jailing someone for drug possession or fraud seems insane to me. As Stephann pointed out, prisons are universities of crime where people come out more hardwired than when they came in. What surest way to totally fuck up a human being than to put them in a box 24/7, surrounded by violence and hardship?

It's obvious, too, that many jailed offenders have mental health issues (the figures are staggering). These issues are not taken care of in jail. Quite the contrary.

I think it's time to reconsider the retributive philosophy behind jail sentences and to concentrate on prevention and rehabilitation. Obviously, some individuals are 'lost' and won't ever recover, and should be kept away - let's just do so humanely.

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 9:00:00 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

If you were to have a hand in the reforms, what would you change and why?


quote:

...nearly 1 out of 8 U.S. drug prisoners are locked up for pot.

Of course, several hundred thousand more Americans are arrested each year for violating marijuana laws, costing taxpayers another $8 billion dollars annually in criminal justice costs...
Pot Prisoners Cost Americans $1 Billion a Year


set them free and adopt a sensible compassionate policy regarding marijuana use/cultivation.
 
why?
prosecuting folks and locking them up in accordance with laws based on bad science, racism and corporate greed is wrong and the practice should end.

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 9:04:19 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

We should work towards a non-custodial penal system. Prison doesn't work.




Building and running prisons is one of the biggest growth industries in the United States.  It remains profitable because the money behind building prisons has kept pushing things like increased incarcerations for non-violent offenders, 3 strikes laws, etc., which keep more and more people in prison for longer and longer amounts of times.

Sinergy


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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 9:27:50 AM   
Termyn8or


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If there were true justice here, fully informed juries, no hiding of conflicting evidence by prosecutors, and true investigationa instead of what they do now which is to build a case against the most likely suspect, I would make prisons pretty tough.

A fully informed jury also means that they are informed of their duty to judge the law as well as the facts, that is precisely what juries are for. They could, and sometimes I think they would make a law against parking your car on the street overnight, and make the penalty ten years. That is what a jury is for, to acquit in such cases.

Or is your question more about the taxes ? Well, if you are actually making money sitting in the can, should you or not ? That could be one hell of a debate. There are indded many sides to it. No, because you can't vote, you are not using the roads and you can't file anyway, but you can (there's a story, I'll stick it at the end). You are not using the roads, polluting the air and using the protections of public services, but are you ?

On the other hand if you are making money from royalties you are taking advantage of the system, specifically the intellectual property rights laws. So then the answer is yes.

But then, this is one of those I think where there will ALWAYS be another "But then".

The story - I'll keep it short as possible but I thought it very interesting. Michael Rodent, a.k.a. Mickey Mouse has changed the way the IRS does business. Back when you could get a refund check cashed easily it occured to him to go to the office supply store and some W4 forms. These are used to enable you to square up the taxes by stating your earnings and deductions (I mention that because not everybody in here is from the US). So this wiseguy just fills them out in various names, and the IRS did not check, they just issued refund checks. And how, the guy got over $100,000. But human stupidity being what it is, I do believe he tried to do it more than one year, so he got caught. Made the papers.

So anyway they get this guy in prison and I know not how the hell he got the forms, but he DID IT AGAIN, YES, while in prison. And this is the hoot, I want this guy's lawyer, because at his next trial (well it did do it again), the lawyer says "You might as well release him because you're obviously not rehabilitating him".

OK that was a bit of a diversion, but if I were running the justice system in a country it would be like this. First and foremost the law of the land would be that a jury trial would be required for any offence that cn result in a jail sentence. There are no plea bargains. Juries can acquit at will, or convict of a lesser charge at any time. Sentencing guidelines are strict. Once the jury decides there is not that much discretion. It would be much better than it is now because right now if you are really innocent, and want to fight the charge, if you lose you are penalized, usually with the maximum sentence. This ostensibly for wasting the court's time.

Under my system, there would be very few innocent people in jail. I used to think that there weren't that many, but over the years I have seen enough to change my opinion. I personally knew someone who went to prison for a murder he did not commit. My Father knows who really did it, but was not involved at the time, he found out later, too late. He would not have let an innocent Man rot in prison, he just found out about the situation through the grapevine so to speak, years later.

It was just too late.

So first you fix that, and make sure only the guilty are incarcerated, and then we make this incarceration worth the trouble. In my world a prison would be a prison school. Every inmate in school eight hours a day. Every one of them learning something, a trade, fixing cars, electronics, anything. Of those options they have their choice, but also would be the mandatory classes, tailored to specific classes of crimes.

And then there is work. There will be no time for fights, gang rapes and learning how to make wine. I haven't been in jail in a long time so I forget what it's called, the big room where the inmates all eat. Well there would be more than one. Both would have nutritious food, this is not like the old days, bread and water. You know they knew that if you only ate bread and water for a bunch of years it would wreck your health, and you can't get anything else. Then they worked your ass, using up whatever your body has stored. Almost nobody got out of prison with hair and teeth in the old days.

But the law says "Imprisonment for X years", not to age prematurely. That is cruel and inhumane IMO, so we do not want to do that. But there are two such eating places, and passes to the better one are bestowed on inates who excel in some way, or show signs that they are indeed rehabilitated, or making significant progress in that area. Even in class, say the top five or whatever in grades get the pass to the other eating room. I wish I could remember the word for it, it sounds so stupid this way.

In the normal eating room, they might have burgers, in the fancy eating room they have steaks. Many other differences, just think for a minute and you can see, it would not be like a five star restaurant, but it would be a treat.

Then any inmate who maintains getting the pass, to keep getting it he must help another get it. If you get a pass because you are doing well at rehabilitation (I specifically did not call it rehab) you help someone else. You should want to. IF you get your pass via academic achievement and keep getting it for a while, you have to tutor someone in your strong area(s). You should want to.

A prison is a place for people who did not grow up right, some have extremely nasty attitudes and there would be ways to deal with that.

Psychology, real psychology is used. Not this pump them up with drugs theory of today. They need to grow up, and for some reason people cannot see that. Really IMO an adult does not steal or rape or murder. Criminals, no matter what their level of expertise in a field, have not fully made the transistion into being an adult.

There are many people in society who use religion as a crutch. They don't have to grow up, that's a shame. But it does keep them out of the hooskaw (sp).

There is alot of bad in the world. Those who don't gain morals, get religion ro sit in jail have gotten themselves in a position to get away with what they're doing. Either by insulation from detection or being able to buy their way out of it. The latter are usually experts at it.

So my conclusion is that I am alright, the world is all wrong.

T

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 9:32:09 AM   
camille65


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

We should work towards a non-custodial penal system. Prison doesn't work.




Building and running prisons is one of the biggest growth industries in the United States.  It remains profitable because the money behind building prisons has kept pushing things like increased incarcerations for non-violent offenders, 3 strikes laws, etc., which keep more and more people in prison for longer and longer amounts of times.

Sinergy

 Especially when you take into consideration the privatization. (sp?? I feel like I can't spell today)

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 10:33:13 AM   
sharainks


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If one wants to reform the prison system you have to start before people go to prison.  I work in a prison and I have worked in the system of child welfare.  The US system (no clue about the UK system) feeds adult prisons. 

You take a child away from the parents who are crummy and put them in a foster home.  Often the new placement is no better just a different set of problems.  You wrench them away from everything and everyone they knew even the positive forces in their life.  There they mix with older kids who are a result of years of foster care and juvenile facilities.  Finally Jr. graduates to juvenile facilities himself.  This after years of being yanked in and out of homes, in and out of schools, getting a poor education because most kids can't cope with being yanked thither and yon and grow up and be normal.  Many of them can't even read and write.  How do they get a job?

At 18 you toss this kid of the street when they age out of "the juvenile system."  Most of them are in adult prisons within months.  The whole system is broken.  You don't want adult prisoners-stop making innocent children into people who turn into criminals. 

There are way too many hurt kids sitting in adult prisons.  Maybe they are 20 or 40.  Inside they are still that kid that no one really wanted or took care of.  They are bundles of anger and hurt -striking out at newest bunch of keepers and resentful of anyone who had a normal life.

Reform in prison...yes its needed but the systems that feed the prisons need reform more.


< Message edited by sharainks -- 2/21/2008 10:35:30 AM >

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 11:16:36 AM   
RealityLicks


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FR -

UK Prisoners do actually pay tax and NI contributions on their earnings, both for work performed inside prison, when hired out to agencies by the prison and if any earnings are accrued while in custody, like royalties from books etc. I don't know why Jonathan King thinks otherwise but lets not tell him and hope the taxman puts the bastard away again.

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 11:30:50 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Prisons are not schools for criminality. By the time most get sent to prison they graduated with honours in criminal behaviour years and years earlier. Its "not getting caught" where  a minority fail.
I agree with the legal double standards underlying current attitudes to so called drug crime . Sensible reform  is definitely required here.

I do not agree that people should be prosecuted as a consequence of the unverifiable evidence about incidents that allegedly occured 20 years previously.

What would I do? Discount any psycho babblers who believe they know how to reform criminals.
Set sentences that meet the severity of the crime , impose them ruthlessly and to the full and include HARD labour backed up as a last resort by corporal punishment. Offer support to those released especially if the sentence was a long one.
The principle is, you do not go to prison to enjoy yourself but basically as a protection for law abiding citizens.
I know we are told that many criminals are inadequate, well I think their inadequacy is best contained....behind bars.
Conjugal visits  could be included to calm the nerves a bit lol

The deep social malaise mentioned definitely exists and is a consequence of non judgemental PC Liberalism.
They think they are 'ard, well the criminal justice system must be 'arder. Dont you agree lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/21/2008 11:34:16 AM >

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 11:39:51 AM   
kittinSol


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You're not addressing a fundamental here, Seeks: prison's failure at preventing recurrence in criminal behaviour. As a matter of fact, prison facilitates it.

As the number of prisonners steadily increases, are you suggesting that you build entire prison-cities that will contain this evergrowing population? And, since you like to know about funding, will you be prepared to pay for it?



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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 11:50:27 AM   
seeksfemslave


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I am. Prison is no deterent 'cos its imposed too late and is too soft IMO.
No more arguing over who can use the barbells in the gym 'cos they wouldnt be any barbells.
I'm talking about teenage tuf guys here, not those in for long sentences.

It has been claimed that for some the material conditions under a prison regime are better than their life outside.
Was there not publicity recently about the varied Xmas prison menu being better than many OAPs could expect.

The number of prisoners has increased in direct proportion to the soft option all they need is understanding attitudes to criminals that have developed over the last 30 years.
That IMO is the fundamental malaise.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/21/2008 11:53:26 AM >

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 11:50:40 AM   
MissMorrigan


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It may be cheaper to wire every criminal given a custodial sentence, but would it be cheaper to 'police' those criminals should a system be implemented and once they are back 'out there' in general population instead of keeping them in prison for the duration of their sentence?

I agree that in many cases prison is ineffectual and believe far more can be rehabilitated. Wouldn't it be fair to say that those who commit crimes and receive custodial sentences should be forced to work in camps/institutionalised systems in any case as surely people are far more inclined to be rehabilitated if they feel as if they are a productive member of society?

Can you explain for me what you mean by 'retribution'?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
At a cost of over $35,000 (US) per inmate, per year, I'm certain it would be far less expensive, more effective, and indeed safer for the public (consider, of course, that prisoners are part of the public) for them to live and work under strict electronic monitoring devices.  Frankly, it would be cheaper to wire every prisoner to record their every action and move in both audio and video, than it would to keep them in a brick and mortar prison.  We also eliminate University of Crime that prisons have become.  Prisoners who commit violations of the regulations of their release could then be subject to even stricter, harsher sanctions including forced employment in camps or other institutionalized situations.

The problem with the paedophiles argument is that while you can place as many restrictions on them as possible, if a person is determined not to abide by those restrictions there's very little to impose them and there isn't enough manpower to police every single convicted paedophile. There are many cases in the UK where, upon release, they have violated their probation and bucked the system to gain employment working with kids so that they have easy access. Stephan, do you really think that implementing a tag system (wiring) would help enforce restrictions regarding probation?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Pedophiles, for example, are only threats to children when exposed to children.  They can work productive jobs and maintain homes just fine so long as they have extremely structured living situations.  Sending them to prison where they become prison bitches doesn't 'fix' them; it ensures that they have an even stronger violent streak, hate adults even more, and become far more careful about how they practice their activities.

I agree, the whole system needs an overhaul.  Remove the retribution element from prison, and instead focus on containment and rehabilitiation.


< Message edited by MissMorrigan -- 2/21/2008 11:51:10 AM >


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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 11:50:48 AM   
LadyEllen


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good points Sharainks

what are the supposed aims of prison?

punishment(retribution) - there's no doubt that imprisonment is an unhappy experience, going from my brother's experience on night shift in a category A prison (sort of like US maximum security but not quite so stringent). These prisoners are the toughest hardnuts imaginable - yet at night, there is the sound of sobbing from many cells. One could then maintain that imprisonment does comprise an element of punishment and that this aim is fulfilled to some extent.

deterrence - one might imagine the unhappy experience of imprisonment might deter any risk of return, however it is clear from the crime rate and more importantly from the level of recividism, that whatever deterrent effect there might be, many will risk going and even being returned to prison for some reason. Prison must therefore be accounted no deterrent at all and it fails in this aim. The reasons for much recividism are indicated in Sharainks' post and Kittinsol's post.

public safety - notwithstanding the very low level of risk to public safety posed by significant numbers of prisoners generally, the prison system obviously succeeds in this aim, at least for as long as the dangerous person is imprisoned.

rehabilitation - again a failure. The recividism rate and the often short time periods between release and re-arrest indicates that prisoners in most cases do not become rehabilitated - indeed there is little if any effort, funding, resource or aim to rehabilitate in UK prisons because they are too overstretched to provide rehabiliation.

So we can conclude that the only satisfactory purposes of prison are to punish and to protect public safety.

In the case of the punishment element - it remains the case that society must have some ultimate sanction, and society has decided that the extent of that ultimate sanction shall be imprisonment. It does seem ridiculous of course, to imprison people for not paying their TV licence, but absent imprisonment and any will to pay, what do we do?

In the case of the public safety element - this is necessary; it would be hugely remiss of us as a society to permit dangerous offenders to walk the streets, continuing their activities. But it is then equally hugely remiss of us to allow those deemed so dangerous that they must be locked up to protect us, to then leave prison just because a certain number of days has passed, when we make little or no effort to rehabilitate them or to deter further offences.

And it is in the deterrent and rehabilitation elements that we fail, that the system ought to work better and prison generally be more useful. It is not that prison is no deterrent, but that upon release the person is faced with limited choices to make their way in the world, the most attractive choice of which is likely to lead back to prison, sooner or later; they cannot get jobs or build what we might consider to be a normal life, when they have a criminal record. And this latter factor is what makes rehabilitation a waste of time and money in the first place - we could rehabilitate perfectly, every person who went to prison - make them perfect citizens on release; yet society in general will still reject them and force them back to a life of crime.

What we must do is several fold
1) most importantly, stop locking up the "mad" as if they were "bad"
2) reserve prison principally for the most dangerous and serious and serial offenders; and keep them in there until we are sure they are no longer capable of repeating their offences. This is harsh, but if they truly are dangerous to have loose, then this is the only way to go to maintain public protection
3) make prison for non dangerous, non serious and non serial offenders a last resort; until that last resort is reached, try everything possible to ensure compliance with the law, recognising that prison will end any ability on their part to live compliantly ever again

But it is what we as a society do upon the release of these people that is the most important element - but when we are unable to provide adequate employment, wages, housing and other resources for the law abiding, it is difficult to imagine how we might provide these to those released from prison such that they might be able to build a life, especially when they bear the mark of a criminal record and employers, landlord etc can be as choosy as they like.

E

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 11:54:39 AM   
MissMorrigan


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The article I read wherein J King was quoted as saying that had me perplexed too as I was under the impression that ALL revenue is taxed, regardless of whether it's in the form of royalties or otherwise.
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
UK Prisoners do actually pay tax and NI contributions on their earnings, both for work performed inside prison, when hired out to agencies by the prison and if any earnings are accrued while in custody, like royalties from books etc. I don't know why Jonathan King thinks otherwise but lets not tell him and hope the taxman puts the bastard away again.


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