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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 2:46:45 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

What would you do about recidivision?
They have to be able to make a living when they get out of jail.
Otherwise, it's back to crime.


...exactly........the punishment model merely creates more hardened criminals.

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 2:47:32 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

What we must do is several fold
1) most importantly, stop locking up the "mad" as if they were "bad"
2) reserve prison principally for the most dangerous and serious and serial offenders; and keep them in there until we are sure they are no longer capable of repeating their offences. This is harsh, but if they truly are dangerous to have loose, then this is the only way to go to maintain public protection
3) make prison for non dangerous, non serious and non serial offenders a last resort; until that last resort is reached, try everything possible to ensure compliance with the law, recognising that prison will end any ability on their part to live compliantly ever again

But it is what we as a society do upon the release of these people that is the most important element - but when we are unable to provide adequate employment, wages, housing and other resources for the law abiding, it is difficult to imagine how we might provide these to those released from prison such that they might be able to build a life, especially when they bear the mark of a criminal record and employers, landlord etc can be as choosy as they like.

E


Lady E, taking your points one by one.

1) Blame Thatcher for this, she decided to shut many of the mental hospitals in the UK, and offer care in the community but without enough resources. Open hospitals were people can stay and be treated and are able to go outside to work could be a help.

2) I agree with the concept except you can never be sure that someone wont re offend. There are a large majority of criminals who see crime as an easier way of making money than working. Many offenders come from families with a long history of prison ect.

3) This already happens in the UK. Judges are reluctant to send people to prison for a first offence unless its serious. Prison itself is also graded, so as people near the release date they get moved to a less strict prison.

Two points not mentioned are as follows, at present drugs are a part of everyday life in the UK prison. Until this is stamped out, many offenders will get hooked on stronger stuff while inside, leading to a life of crime on release. I have two friends who both got hooked on heroin while in jail, thankfully one is now clean.

The other point is about non violent crimes, even these can be very traumatic on the victim. One of my elderly aunts had her bag snatched, ten years before she passed away. She fell and banged her head but the worse part was the mental scars. From that day she was scared to go shopping, even in daylight. The mugger got community service, my aunt got life.

Blair promised to be tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime, and did neither.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 2:50:29 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

What would you do about recidivision?
They have to be able to make a living when they get out of jail.
Otherwise, it's back to crime.


...exactly........the punishment model merely creates more hardened criminals.


Thats not always true, as i have just said in my last post. People who decide that crime is easier than working, will return to crime for the most part. Liberals tend to overlook the fact that some people are just plain greedy.

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 2:55:15 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

What would you do about recidivision?
They have to be able to make a living when they get out of jail.
Otherwise, it's back to crime.


...exactly........the punishment model merely creates more hardened criminals.


Thats not always true, as i have just said in my last post. People who decide that crime is easier than working, will return to crime for the most part. Liberals tend to overlook the fact that some people are just plain greedy.


...point is, while i concede such people exist, it is a meaningless fact unless we figure out what proportion of the whole they are. If a majority then punishment works, if a minority then it doesn't.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 3:03:47 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Point taken Phil but surely the majority of people in the UK have already been through the system, with fines, community service, asbo`s ect ect, before ever being jailed. The lighter sentence hasnt been any sort of deterrent in most cases. I dont see it doing any good to say prison is a failure, because if that has failed, so have all the other means of punishment that have preceded it.

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 3:04:40 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Popeye has put his finger on a basic problem. People who have been to prison need help in re adjusting into the world when they are released.
This useful approach is better than all the lamentable responses offered by the doe eyed Liberals.

If public money is to be spent on anything, offering ex prisoners employment is far more sensible than trying to "kiss them better" before and while they are in prison.
The major problem then is to somehow ensure that the jobs they are offered dont compete with those available to the law abiding.

If they reject this offer, take the "easy" option of criminality then they should expect to go back to prison for a very long time indeed.;

Just like to add that I think super max prisons for long term inmates are an abomination and I should think unconstitutional.



(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 3:06:48 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Point taken Phil but surely the majority of people in the UK have already been through the system, with fines, community service, asbo`s ect ect, before ever being jailed. The lighter sentence hasnt been any sort of deterrent in most cases. I dont see it doing any good to say prison is a failure, because if that has failed, so have all the other means of punishment that have preceded it.


...i think we have to be careful here. First point, i have no idea what proportion of people in prison had lighter sentences beforehand. Second point, even if the number is 100% it's still meanigless unless we can compare to the number of people for whom the lighter sentences did work.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 3:16:54 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

Philosophy
i think we have to be careful here. First point, i have no idea what proportion of people in prison had lighter sentences beforehand.
100%. Unless they are  psychotically aggressive and even then a Liberal nitwit may advocate soft treatment.

Philosophy and PC Liberals in the UK
Just as at the moment there is a sea change in the attitude to multi culturalism and immigration,
I assume you recognise that ?
then so in the near future the failing PC Liberal approach to law and order will come under the microscope,

The tragedy is that those who think like you have done so much harm to the fabric of society !!!!!

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/21/2008 3:24:56 PM >

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 3:21:42 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

Philosophy
i think we have to be careful here. First point, i have no idea what proportion of people in prison had lighter sentences beforehand.
100%. Unless they are  psychotically aggressive and even then a Liberal nitwit may advocate soft treatment.


,.....you have any proof of that? Or are you indulging in that 'ithinkthatsthewaythingsworksothereforethatmustbetrue' thing again?

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 3:27:53 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...i think we have to be careful here. First point, i have no idea what proportion of people in prison had lighter sentences beforehand. Second point, even if the number is 100% it's still meanigless unless we can compare to the number of people for whom the lighter sentences did work.


You miss the point Phil, the fact remains is there are still large numbers being jailed, who have had the chance of a lighter sentence and not taken it.

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 3:34:45 PM   
Aileen1968


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Status: offline 		The problem with prisons is that they are no longer a deterent...they are more like a hands on myspace.  Criminals go in and make more contacts, have the ability to continue running any outside illegal ventures, get free cable and food along with gym privileges and college education if they actually choose.  I think that chain gangs should be brought back for those beyond reform and for those with some hope...trade education.  Teach them something legal to do. 

_____________________________



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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 3:39:12 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		Life inside is no whirly gig.

It's easy to believe criminals have an easy time in prison. Radical right-wing nuts publish articles all over the shot describing how prisonners have the time of their lives in jail (yeah, right).

If one digs a little further, however, the facts are... that life inside... is fucking tough. And some people say that so it should be.

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 3:41:08 PM   
Aileen1968


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Status: offline 		I never said it was an easy life.  The tough on the outside are just as tough on the inside and they run the places.  Take away their power.

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 3:50:29 PM   
Sinergy


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Fast reply

If we took all the Neo-Cons, the current administration, everybody who voted in the Senate and the House to invade Iraq, and threw them all (Judicial Branch) in prison.  I imagine they would actually do the job they were elected to do and enforce the laws of our country (Executive branch) AND enact  and oversee existing laws (Legislative Branch), modifying those that are inappropriate.

Our prison system would be reformed overnight!

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 3:54:26 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...i think we have to be careful here. First point, i have no idea what proportion of people in prison had lighter sentences beforehand. Second point, even if the number is 100% it's still meanigless unless we can compare to the number of people for whom the lighter sentences did work.


You miss the point Phil, the fact remains is there are still large numbers being jailed, who have had the chance of a lighter sentence and not taken it.


......don't think i do........without knowing how many did take the chance then we can't say whether it works or not. This is the same logic that says marijuana is a gateway drug to heroin because all heroin users have used marijuana. Without knowing how many marijuana users don't go on to heroin it's a meaningless stat.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 4:22:33 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
quote:

Philosophy
i have no idea what proportion of people in prison had lighter sentences beforehand.
100%. Unless they are  psychotically aggressive and even then a Liberal nitwit may advocate soft treatment.
,.....you have any proof of that?

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/consultations/justice/rrrc-02.asp
quote:

60% of offenders released from prison were reconvicted of another offence. 
58% of offenders who received a probation order were reconvicted. 
42% of offenders who began a Community Service Order were reconvicted of further offences. 
40% of offenders who received fines were reconvicted of further offences. 
53% of offenders under 21 years were reconvicted

Bear in mind that these stats. refer to the miniscule number of criminals who are actually caught. so when criminality as a whole is considered we are discussing serious social disruption .
If you spent less time slavering over the Guardian approach  came down to Earth and read say the Daily Mail you would actually be aware of these trends.
Do not try to demonstrate that my 100% stat. is wrong because virtually all first offenders get ineffective sentences.



< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/21/2008 5:08:48 PM >

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RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 4:41:26 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/401357.stm
quote:

In a speech to Unlock, a new organisation to help ex-offenders, Mr Straw said criminals regarded community sentences as a soft option because probation officials were failing to enforce them rigorously.

Mr Straw said: "Most prisoners are sentenced to custody after receiving fines or community sentences for earlier convictions.
I rest my case m'lud.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 4:47:43 PM   
Sinergy


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Politesub made the point that some are offered a lighter sentence and refuse to take it.

Given that I have personally witnessed police officers arguing outside a courtroom about what
they were going to testify under oath actually happened during an arrest, since they all had to testify. I have read many stories of people found guilty exonarated by DNA evidence or witnesses recanting their testimony and stating under oath that they were paid or offered a deal to testify of a "jailhouse confession," perhaps people are unwilling to take a lighter sentence offered because...

*pauses for dramatic effect*

they are innocent?

If you are innocent of using or possessing drugs, and your attorney says "if you admit under oath that you had marijuana, and get 1 year probation, rather than 3 years for posession of heroin," would you lie under oath and take the plea bargain?

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 4:53:10 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Sinergy im sorry if i gave that impression. Phil and i were speaking of people who have been in prison after having been given a lighter sentence. My point was they havent taken the chance to go straight, not that they havent accepted a deal.


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide - 2/21/2008 5:06:33 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Sinergy: as I expect you are aware I am a compassionate man at heart and I have to admit that your posts are now giving me serious cause for concern.
The only explanation I can think of is that working in the docks as you do your brains were addled when a Chinese container fell over and  landed on your head.

Please accept my best wishes for a speedy recovery he he he he he he he

Get a grip, you seem to have lost your edge.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 60
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