RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (Full Version)

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philosophy -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/23/2008 10:45:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressFurher

So in short- until society can accept that different things need to be done with prisons systems( like taking a page or two from our asian counterparts),  prsions will continue to be a wharehouse of undesired behaviors large and small.  All so the average tax payer feels safe at night.



.......hmmmm, seems to me that a cultures prison system isn't an isolated part of the culture, but an expression of more fundamental characteristics within it. Earlier in your post you stated that 'inmates are people'. i'm not sure that treating people like animals is the best direction for a culture to go in. After all, isn't that why some of the people are in prison in the first place?



juliaoceania -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/23/2008 11:06:13 AM)

general reply

I have seen a lot of discussion on here about this theory or that theory working, and allusions to medical science being able to fix illnesses 100% of the time.

I am reminded of something I read way back when about spontaneous remission of cancer.  A person gets sick with cancer.  Some percentage of these people go into spontaneous remission, and I will call this percentage X.

Some percentage of cancer patients take up Scientology, Macrobiotics, primal scream, religious shaman's recommendation, faith healings.  Of those who do, some percentage of these go into spontaneous remission.  I will call this percentage Y.

X% is close enough to Y% that when you examine it on the basis of pure statistics, it is entirely possible that those whose cancer went into remission when they went Hindu are just the group of spontaneous remission people and Hinduism had nothing to do with it.  My friend who was given 6 months to live 30 years ago, went macrobiotic, and went to breakfast with me a year or so ago swears by it.  Who am I to argue with her?  Maybe it is the reason, maybe she won the lottery, so to speak.

To bring this full circle, recidivism is a problem.  Some people who are given job help, life skill classes, go out and recommit crimes.  Other people who earn their PhD in prison and go on to teach me about gang culture in college dont.  Rehabilitation programs do not work 100%, but neither does incarceration.

It is my understanding that rehabilitation for sex offenders is depressingly unlikely.

However, as philosophy points out, when you start off putting a bullet in the head of anybody who commits a crime, you have nowhere to go.

Sinergy

p.s.  i need to get strumpet her own pc.



MistressFurher -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/23/2008 11:18:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressFurher

So in short- until society can accept that different things need to be done with prisons systems( like taking a page or two from our asian counterparts),  prsions will continue to be a wharehouse of undesired behaviors large and small.  All so the average tax payer feels safe at night.



.......hmmmm, seems to me that a cultures prison system isn't an isolated part of the culture, but an expression of more fundamental characteristics within it. Earlier in your post you stated that 'inmates are people'. i'm not sure that treating people like animals is the best direction for a culture to go in. After all, isn't that why some of the people are in prison in the first place?


I stated that if they act like animals,  we have to be willing to treat them as such.   Placing them in prison and then coddling them only makes them a problem that will have to be dealt with in the future. 

And your own statement:

"After all, isn't that why some of the people are in prison in the first place?"

is simply saying the same thing I said in the rest of my post.

And if you are trying to start Nature vs. Nurture debate,  I'm not going to take the bait.   I know what happens inside prisons,  what happens outside prisons is the purview of our social system.   Criminology(why they do 'bad' things) is an entirely seperate field(although with close paralels) then Corrections is.   Some intro level CJ courses could illustrate the differences for you if you're really interested in getting educated on the topic.



LadyEllen -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/23/2008 12:12:05 PM)

My view is that there is no universal reason for people breaking the law
- some have a good life, but break the law out of greed (white collar crime, casual thefts etc)
- some have a poor life, where breaking the law is a way to improve their life
- some see crime as a way of life and making a living
- some are driven to crime to feed addiction; addiction they have because of a poor life
- some are "mad" and perform crime because of their illness, not necessarily deliberately
- and some are plain "bad"; sociopathic types who either dont realise or dont care the hurt and harm they cause

Obviously this is a simplistic and overgeneralised categoriation, but the motivations being different even at this level, it would seem that using the same approach to inhibit reoffending is counter intuitive. That motivations are different would suggest that different approaches, based on those motivations, are required, and that some of the motivations are inherent to the being of the offenders would suggest that rehabilitation efforts must be focussed on those capable of benefitting from them - we cannot reform a sociopath, for instance.

But the reason as I see it for high levels of reoffending, is that regardless of the motivation for the initial crime, the environment to which the offender is returned upon release is one in which he/she will have a poor life, next to which the performance of crime aimed at improving his/her lot is a more attractive proposition than the existing circumstances. The experience of a poor life also increases enormously the chances of addiction to drugs which make the adverse circumstances more bearable, for a time at least, which I also see as a motivator toward crime.

For all the rehabilitation which might be done in prisons - and to be fair there is little from my impression and my brother's experience as a guard, we cannot then expect to release people into a world where their circumstances are very poor, and for them not to try to improve their lot in the ways available to them - and as we know already, they are not likely to have a job as a way available to them.

If we want people to not offend or reoffend, then we have to change our socio-economic model such that it is not based on chasing profits but on providing a reasonable life for all - including those we release from prison. The current system is one in which there is not enough adequate housing, too few adequately paid jobs and no one need offer either to a released offender so they dont.

And some we must accept cannot be rehabilitated, and can never be released. This is harsh, but the only aim of imprisonment fulfilled for these people is to protect the public.

And we have to have proper facilities for those who are "mad"; prison isnt it. Prison guards are not psychiatrists or psychologists.

E



philosophy -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/23/2008 12:12:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressFurher


I stated that if they act like animals,  we have to be willing to treat them as such.  


......well, that's ethically recursive.

quote:

Placing them in prison and then coddling them only makes them a problem that will have to be dealt with in the future. 


....define coddling. If by coddling you mean treat them like humans then we have no common ground.

quote:

And your own statement:

"After all, isn't that why some of the people are in prison in the first place?"

is simply saying the same thing I said in the rest of my post.


....i fail to see your point. i'm not writing just about their actions, but society's too.

quote:

And if you are trying to start Nature vs. Nurture debate,  I'm not going to take the bait. 


...nope, thats not my point at all.

quote:

 I know what happens inside prisons,  what happens outside prisons is the purview of our social system.   Criminology(why they do 'bad' things) is an entirely seperate field(although with close paralels) then Corrections is. 


....are you seriously suggesting that these fields don't overlap? Other overlaps include economic policy, social policy and, even, education policy. It's all linked. Any attempt to try to seperate these issues and say they have no effect on each other is doomed to failure.

quote:

Some intro level CJ courses could illustrate the differences for you if you're really interested in getting educated on the topic.


.....specialist knowledge is always useful, and anyone who wants to improve their mind never turns down an opportunity to learn. May i suggest some social work classes for you also.



MissMorrigan -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/23/2008 12:46:18 PM)


The problem with treating humans as 'animals', is that in by doing so people will always keep within the confines of that descriptor and behave 'as type'. Tell a person they're rotten enough and sure enough, a 'rotten apple' they'll become. MistressFurher mentioned in a previous post that we ought to look towards some asian penal systems, I'm not sure, specifically, to which she refers, but from my understanding and observations, many of those penal systems fail to take into consideration any kind of rehabilitative/education process and are those 'warehouses' which were mentioned. Would MistressFurher care to elaborate and provide links to these penal systems that we should be looking to aspire, unless she is advocating a return to Corporal Punishment? If so, it'd be interesting to find out what proportion those that receive judicial canings reoffend. It's a moot point, however, violence, on any level, is unacceptable, especially when those in authority are leading by example.
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressFurher
I stated that if they act like animals,  we have to be willing to treat them as such.  


......well, that's ethically recursive.

quote:

Placing them in prison and then coddling them only makes them a problem that will have to be dealt with in the future. 


....define coddling. If by coddling you mean treat them like humans then we have no common ground.

quote:

And your own statement:

"After all, isn't that why some of the people are in prison in the first place?"

is simply saying the same thing I said in the rest of my post.


....i fail to see your point. i'm not writing just about their actions, but society's too.

quote:

And if you are trying to start Nature vs. Nurture debate,  I'm not going to take the bait. 


...nope, thats not my point at all.

quote:

 I know what happens inside prisons,  what happens outside prisons is the purview of our social system.   Criminology(why they do 'bad' things) is an entirely seperate field(although with close paralels) then Corrections is. 


....are you seriously suggesting that these fields don't overlap? Other overlaps include economic policy, social policy and, even, education policy. It's all linked. Any attempt to try to seperate these issues and say they have no effect on each other is doomed to failure.

quote:

Some intro level CJ courses could illustrate the differences for you if you're really interested in getting educated on the topic.


.....specialist knowledge is always useful, and anyone who wants to improve their mind never turns down an opportunity to learn. May i suggest some social work classes for you also.



Alumbrado -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/23/2008 12:46:31 PM)

quote:

(AN)At last sensible words based upon fact not statistics and theories.


More like based upon watching too much TV.

If there is such an infallible system of swift justice inside the prisons, then why did they have to put the predators who repeatedly prey on other prisoners inside Pelican Island?

And spare us the 'other parts of the world know how to stop crime by chopping off the hands of thieves' nonsense...they know how to drive the worst sorts of crimes into other forms...it is a naive fairy tale approach to start with the assumption that crime can be stopped.  It is an intrinisc part of human nature, and most efforts to stop it only push it somwhere else.



Aneirin -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/23/2008 1:17:55 PM)

Despite our apparent thought that we are 'civilised ' in this present age of reason and understanding, in reality we are not. The human race as it is now still does things that it has always done, like wage war for example and kill. Soldiers still affix bayonets to rifles and use them close range,much like a shortened spear or sword.The gore of killing.

All the old ' uncivilised ' things from the past, the human race still commits, nothing has changed except we now recognise certain things as  uncivilised, whereas in the past we might not.

So, we still harbour primitive urges, and some for whatever reason go on to display those primitive urges, rape,  murder , asssault etc.

So primitive actions deserve primitive punishments, look at what has worked in the past and elsewhere and consider the implementation. Human rights have got sod all to do with anything, attack and/or kill another human being deserves punishment. A punishment designed to inform the perpetrator of their wrong actions and deter them from trying again.  a side effect might be the detering of  others knowing the punishment someone else suffers, a fear created.

After all, incarceration is meant to be a punishment, it should be so, as all it is at the present, is a place criminals go to protect the public from them or in some cases to protect the criminal from the public.





MistressFurher -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/24/2008 7:14:37 AM)

I currently work as a victims right advocate,  one of my girls has a masters in sociology.   I think I have a grasp of the basics.

And I find it amusing,  everyone that bitches about how corporal punishment doesnt work,  also have no answers at all on how to solve the problems.  We hide behind our TV's and internet connections and see very limited and tiny views of the world- and yet so many think they know how everything really works.

If you choose to be a victim-  thats what you will be.   Good luck with that.

And I'm done posting on this thread,  there seem to be many people here that really have nothing of merit to say,  but say it anyway by simply being contrary to anyone who posts something beyond their own limited views.



thompsonx -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/24/2008 7:40:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressFurher

I currently work as a victims right advocate,  one of my girls has a masters in sociology.   I think I have a grasp of the basics.
It is unclear how the educational level of one of your employees validates your "grasp of the basics".


And I find it amusing,  everyone that bitches about how corporal punishment doesnt work,  also have no answers at all on how to solve the problems. 
 
That corporal punishment does not work is abundantly clear simply by looking where it is applied and the results obtained.  That alternatives have not been suggested is patently untrue.


We hide behind our TV's and internet connections and see very limited and tiny views of the world- and yet so many think they know how everything really works.
You are only qualified to speak for yourself in this area.

If you choose to be a victim-  thats what you will be.   Good luck with that.

And I'm done posting on this thread,  there seem to be many people here that really have nothing of merit to say, 
This also is an area where you are only qualified to speak for yourself and no one else.

but say it anyway by simply being contrary to anyone who posts something beyond their own limited views.
We are all constrained by our own "limited views" that is why this is called a discussion board.  The purpose of which is to extend and expand our knowledge and understanding of the topics discussed.  It would be a shame if we were to loose someone of your obvious intellect and experience.




MissMorrigan -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/24/2008 8:27:08 AM)


MistressFurher, you said that you find it amusing that everyone that bitches about corporal punishment not seeming to 'work' also have no answers at all to solve the problems. This thread was created for people, regardless of their views, to discuss various ways in which they personally believed the penal system could be reformed, yet you have adopted the "My way or not way at all" attitude when people, specifically myself, have asked you to qualify certain comments, such as why you believe we ought to look to asian penal systems as a way forward. You refused to answer me directly, yet replied only to the one person whose views mirrored your own. Hopefully you adopted a more professional approach back in your prison service days when the captive audience ask you to clarify something for them.

We, you included, do not have the answers, hence the discussion, or we'd be in positions and actively working on those reforms.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressFurher
I currently work as a victims right advocate,  one of my girls has a masters in sociology.   I think I have a grasp of the basics.

And I find it amusing,  everyone that bitches about how corporal punishment doesnt work,  also have no answers at all on how to solve the problems.  We hide behind our TV's and internet connections and see very limited and tiny views of the world- and yet so many think they know how everything really works.

If you choose to be a victim-  thats what you will be.   Good luck with that.

And I'm done posting on this thread,  there seem to be many people here that really have nothing of merit to say,  but say it anyway by simply being contrary to anyone who posts something beyond their own limited views.



philosophy -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/24/2008 9:37:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Despite our apparent thought that we are 'civilised ' in this present age of reason and understanding, in reality we are not. The human race as it is now still does things that it has always done, like wage war for example and kill. Soldiers still affix bayonets to rifles and use them close range,much like a shortened spear or sword.The gore of killing.


...fair enough, that is clearly uncivilised behaviour. However, there are plenty of ways in which society has become civilised over the years. We no longer stick our elderly and infirm on ice floes for instance.

quote:

All the old ' uncivilised ' things from the past, the human race still commits, nothing has changed except we now recognise certain things as  uncivilised, whereas in the past we might not.


...untrue. Religious tolerance, the treatment of the mentally disabled, racial relations......these are all areas in which society has moved along an axis away from 'uncivilised' and towards 'civilised'.

quote:

So, we still harbour primitive urges, and some for whatever reason go on to display those primitive urges, rape,  murder , asssault etc.


...operative word there is 'some'. If it were 'all' then you'd have a point.

quote:

So primitive actions deserve primitive punishments, look at what has worked in the past and elsewhere and consider the implementation.


...this is the 'good ol' days' argument. It wasn't a golden age.....whats wrong with looking tiowards the future rather than harping on about the past?

quote:

 Human rights have got sod all to do with anything


.......wrong.....

quote:

 attack and/or kill another human being deserves punishment. A punishment designed to inform the perpetrator of their wrong actions and deter them from trying again.  a side effect might be the detering of  others knowing the punishment someone else suffers, a fear created.


.....punishment has been tried. Recidivism rates are unaffected. Surely the point of a penal system is to stop crimes reoccurring.

quote:

After all, incarceration is meant to be a punishment, it should be so, as all it is at the present, is a place criminals go to protect the public from them or in some cases to protect the criminal from the public.


......so long as incarceration is seen purely as punishment then recidivism rates will be unaffected. We have a choice, a penal system that is effectively a societal instrument of revenge, or a penal system that attempts to prevent crimes being committed in the future. The two are not synonymous.






Aneirin -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/24/2008 9:49:04 AM)

Do YOU have a suggestion then on what can be done to stop crime happening or are all your words the same as that spouted by politicians?



philosophy -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/24/2008 9:54:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Do YOU have a suggestion then on what can be done to stop crime happening or are all your words the same as that spouted by politicians?



....my suggestion is that we take our heads out of the sand and stop being ostriches. Prison, clearly, doesn't work. The recidivism rates prove that. i'm not so arrogant as to assume i have the right answer, but that doesn't stop me seeing the wrong answer when basically it's 'lets do what we've always done but harder'.......this issue needs more discussion, more talent applied to it, more and better thinking around it. In a way it needs many, many more threads like this [:)]

Oh, and i have to honest, the basic premise of your solution was that we are far more uncivilised than we think we are........i think a better starting point may be to see just how civilised we can be.....



bipolarber -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/24/2008 9:56:38 AM)

Well, I'm torn.

For those guilty of violent crime, I'd say we should take the "Escape From New York" route. Set up a penal colony, dump 'em in, and forget about 'em.

For folks who are guilty of lesser crimes, we continue with our campus style prison system, giving them an education, and a chance to actually become self sufficient. If they are repeat offenders... (see above)

No, not a totally serious answer... but then I never thought the US would stoop to torture, either.




Aneirin -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/24/2008 10:22:15 AM)

That is fair enough and well said, I am all for going forward should a better solution be found.

But I fear there will never be a solution that fits all, crime will always be a problem as it is now and has ever been, that is unless the  lunacy of science fiction fantasy is brought into play with the likes of  precognition.



philosophy -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/24/2008 10:26:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

That is fair enough and well said, I am all for going forward should a better solution be found.

But I fear there will never be a solution that fits all, crime will always be a problem as it is now and has ever been, that is unless the  lunacy of science fiction fantasy is brought into play with the likes of  precognition.



....i agree that a world without all crime is probably impossible. My only concern is that our way of dealing with crime ought not produce more crime.



Alumbrado -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/24/2008 10:31:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Do YOU have a suggestion then on what can be done to stop crime happening or are all your words the same as that spouted by politicians?



As I pointed out way back in this thread, politicians don't want to stop crime. 
That would then seem to put those who pooh-pooh suggested alternatives to the status quo on the same side as the politicians.

.



Sinergy -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/24/2008 10:52:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Do YOU have a suggestion then on what can be done to stop crime happening or are all your words the same as that spouted by politicians?



I teach women's full contact self defense as a mock assailant.

Our physical techniques do not work offensively, but are devastating when used to defend oneself.  I could explain why but it would be a thread hijack here.

Our verbal techniques are amazingly effective when used to de-escalate a potential conflict, and our awareness skills and target denial skills mean the person will most likely never be involved in the first place.

What have you done lately to prevent crime?

Sinergy



Aneirin -> RE: Prison Reforms - You Decide (2/24/2008 11:42:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Do YOU have a suggestion then on what can be done to stop crime happening or are all your words the same as that spouted by politicians?



I teach women's full contact self defense as a mock assailant.

Our physical techniques do not work offensively, but are devastating when used to defend oneself.  I could explain why but it would be a thread hijack here.

Our verbal techniques are amazingly effective when used to de-escalate a potential conflict, and our awareness skills and target denial skills mean the person will most likely never be involved in the first place.

What have you done lately to prevent crime?

Sinergy



   Congratulations on your efforts to prevent crime happening to women, I attend a class for much the same to learn with others ,women and MEN how to defend oneself , using an assailant's force against them in the form of Tai Chi.

What have I done recently to prevent crime, well not that much lately, but in the past yes, I was active in neighbourhood crime prevention and youth groups, myself being a qualified mountain leader,caving and climbing instructor for groups of 14 to 19 year olds. Now, I have removed myself from the centres of crime, the most criminal thing that happens here is the occaisional robbery of vegetables from the allotments



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