quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Those that oppose the rehabilitative approach do so because they know it doesnt work.
Its jobs for the boys/girls scam IMO.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Errrrrmmm...just because someone doesn't get caught and go back to jail for repeat offenses, doesn't mean that they aren't re-offending...yanno?

There is a good reason why they call it the dark figure of crime.

quote:

...so if we have to ignore the posted evidence then we have to rely on our gut instincts? Surely thats the same logic behind creationism? The numbers will, inevitably, have error in them....but the basic shape of the principle implied is usually more or less the same given a reasonable model for gathering the stats.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

...so if we have to ignore the posted evidence then we have to rely on our gut instincts? Surely thats the same logic behind creationism? The numbers will, inevitably, have error in them....but the basic shape of the principle implied is usually more or less the same given a reasonable model for gathering the stats.

Have you read anything I've been saying?  Creationism IS blind faith. So is pretending that rehabilitation worked, when wehave no clue if the numbers are grossly inaccurate.   Saying 52 percent proves something 'worked' is voodoo science.

Show me how rehabilitaion works...just like I can show you how sports medicine rehabilitates an injured body part....then we can start discussing the exceptions.

Enough spinmeister debating over poll numbers, any one of you, show me how rehabilitaion works, no political propaganda, no wishful thinking or Hollywoood movie scripts.... explain the causal mechanism, or else we are describing magical thinking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Today, Jonathan King was quoted as saying, "“My time inside has been some of the best in my life.
“Terrific companionship, education, revelations about the world. No taxes, no traffic jams, no mobiles.”  To those of you who do not know of Jonathan King, here is a link that will explain the man better than I can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_King

Apparently, during his stay at the Majesty's request, he is not liable to pay taxes on his earnings which include monies from royalties. If a person is still able to profit from earnings while being inside, why aren't they privy to paying taxes as well? This, I do not understand.

This isn't my main query though and Jonathan King's comments just highlight what I can see as a growing concern regarding our prisons in the UK/US and we're long overdue a reform.

My question is:

If you were to have a hand in the reforms, what would you change and why?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Alumbrado - you seem stuck on the 100% solution. You also seem ready to dismiss any helpful ideas out of hand because thay lack a level of detail you have not specified. How many studies, examples, anecdotes, web pages will it take to constitute a proof for you.

There's tons of science on rehabilitation of criminals. Tons and tons. It's not a mystery nor is it new nor is it an untried discipline.

Aside from a few incurables, the majority of inmates (and law abiding citizens, for that matter) who are given new skill sets to deal with emotional and mental dysfunction and who are directed to apply those skills to the mater of their crime, its impact on others, their erroneous reasoning for committing it etc. etc. can and do become more mindful and evolve into more responsible, functional people. Coupled with employment skills training and support on the outside, this can and does lead to bad people becoming better people. Not better criminals, better people.


Z.

quote:

..ok, fair enough. Let's use metaphor. You're a school kid. You break some rule or other.....you get lines. Now, for some, that is unpleasant enough not to repeat the rule breaking. For some however it is not. They break another rule. They get detention. For some of the second group, detention is unpleasant enough  not to repeat the rule breaking. For some however it is not. They break another rule. They get lines, detention and a letter home. For some of the third group this is unpleasant enough not to repeat the rule breaking. For some however it is not. The fourth group break another rule. They get expelled.

Now there is a fifth group......a group that are breaking the rules because there is another factor at work in their lives. Maybe something awful happening at home makes them break rules in an attempt to gain some attention. Maybe they're just a touch sociopathic. This group will not respond to the above set of consequences, but usually they don't get the specialised treatment they need.

Essentially, lesser sentencing is a progressive aversive therapy approach. Expel at the first offence and you have nowhere to go.

quote:

You did say " I think I've mentioned Otnow -Lewis repeatedly in these discussion," but it is the first mention in this thread. You also mention Patrick/Hare. While I have not read these sources you do describe their work as relevant to abhorrent behaviours resulting from brain injury and / or due to psychopathy. These represent a fairly small but extreme set of cases, and are probably entirely resistant to reform - unfixable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Why the hostility, Alumbrado?

Where are the numerous references I ignored? Not counting the ones you just gave.

Am I expected to read all pertinent studies just to participate in a discussion? We aren't setting policy here. I'm not being paid. No one's life depends on the quality of my knowledge or ignorance. Are you setting the standards here? Until recently all you have done is demand proofs without providing anything more than opinions on the weakness of other people's views. You may be entirely correct but you have not supported that.

Are Otnow/lewis and Patrick/Hare et al relevant to the non brain injured, non psychotic inmates? Do I have to read them or can you say, from your knowledge of them, basically if and how they are relevant to reasonably functional, non-brain injured people?

I am just wondering when therapy, whether it is provided for people in prison or outside of it, became a superstition.


Z.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressFurher

As long as prisons are an extension of the political system,  they will be subject to the trends society imposes upon them.   Prisons have became less effective over time as we become more humane.  Prisons aren't the hell holes they used to be, despite what hollywood would lead you to believe.   Therefore the deterrent aspect is seriously diminished.  

Rehabilitation being a form of education is expensive,  and is usually the first thing cut from the budgets of crowded prison systems- thigs like food and sanitation take priorities.

Inmates are people.  They run the spectrum from pot smoking kids that got caught,  to serial murderers and rapists that eat their own poo and talk to their imaginary friends as a way of avoiding the death penalty.

The recent trend is privatizing prisons.  This makes it a business, that is administered by the same politcal systems that cannot successfully correct, or control the behavior of incarcerated individuals.   I dont see this as a failure of the system,  rather a failure for our society as a whole to realize that being 'nice' to imates may make them feel humane,  but it is only creating a cycle of over tolerance.

Inside prisons, when an inmate does something wrong to another,  their is retribution.  Often violent and public.  Everyone knows what happens,  and why they shouldnt do the same thing else they get beaten/raped/stabbed  etc etc.     Justice systems in other parts of the world,  that have much lower rates of recidivism and repeat offenses,  are much harsher in their sentencing.  For example,  after that kid got caned in Asia a few months ago,  Im willing to bet no more americans went about egging cars there-  but would have no qulams for doing it here.   

So maybe for this problem to take a step forward,  we really need to take a couple steps back.  Think outside the foam lined box of  'humane' treatment,  and let them know that if they act like an animal we are willing to treat them like one.

And for those that are curious, I worked in Arizonas super max and max security prisons for 10 years.   I've went to conferences and spoken with correctional proffesionals from all over the US,  and even a few from Europe and Asia.   I've seen people die inside,  had feces thrown at me, witnessed stabbings,  slipped in puddles of blood-  and yet in all that, I still found that some inmates are damn good people.  

So in short- until society can accept that different things need to be done with prisons systems( like taking a page or two from our asian counterparts),  prsions will continue to be a wharehouse of undesired behaviors large and small.  All so the average tax payer feels safe at night.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressFurher

As long as prisons are an extension of the political system,
When and where have they not been?


they will be subject to the trends society imposes upon them.   Prisons have became less effective over time as we become more humane.
I would suppose that dying in prison would have a cumulative effect on recidivism.

Prisons aren't the hell holes they used to be, despite what hollywood would lead you to believe.   Therefore the deterrent aspect is seriously diminished.
You have yet to establish a dependent relationship of one on the other.


Rehabilitation being a form of education is expensive,  and is usually the first thing cut from the budgets of crowded prison systems- thigs like food and sanitation take priorities.
As would staff salaries.  Would you care to hazard a guess as to what percentage things like food and sanitation comprise of the cost of incarceration?


Inmates are people.  They run the spectrum from pot smoking kids that got caught,  to serial murderers and rapists that eat their own poo and talk to their imaginary friends as a way of avoiding the death penalty.
It is well documented that more than 70% of the prison population are there on drug related charges so it would follow that the non violent inmates are the overwhelming majority.


The recent trend is privatizing prisons.  This makes it a business, that is administered by the same politcal systems that cannot successfully correct, or control the behavior of incarcerated individuals.   I dont see this as a failure of the system,  rather a failure for our society as a whole to realize that being 'nice' to imates may make them feel humane,  but it is only creating a cycle of over tolerance.
Your conclusion is not supported by your premise.


Inside prisons, when an inmate does something wrong to another,  their is retribution.  Often violent and public.  Everyone knows what happens,  and why they shouldnt do the same thing else they get beaten/raped/stabbed  etc etc.
Your point here is unclear.


Justice systems in other parts of the world,  that have much lower rates of recidivism and repeat offenses,  are much harsher in their sentencing.  For example,  after that kid got caned in Asia a few months ago,  Im willing to bet no more americans went about egging cars there-  but would have no qulams for doing it here.
If this were true then there should be no crime in the dictatorship of Singapore.  Yet there not only is still crime in Singapore but it is dealt with by public caining (videos of which were posted here on CM).  If public caining prevented crime then why do they still have public caining?....is it simply afternoon entertainment?


So maybe for this problem to take a step forward,  we really need to take a couple steps back.  Think outside the foam lined box of  'humane' treatment,  and let them know that if they act like an animal we are willing to treat them like one.
Just how would you suggest that a prisoner be treated like an animal?  Should we spay and neuter them?  Should we put them on a chain and feed them with a sling shot?  Should we brand them like cattle?  Or perhaps inject them with hormones?


And for those that are curious, I worked in Arizonas super max and max security prisons for 10 years.
Perhaps that is the cause of your "Us vs.Them" mindset.

I've went to conferences and spoken with correctional proffesionals from all over the US,  and even a few from Europe and Asia.   I've seen people die inside,  had feces thrown at me, witnessed stabbings,  slipped in puddles of blood-  and yet in all that, I still found that some inmates are damn good people. 
Your point here is unclear.


So in short- until society can accept that different things need to be done with prisons systems( like taking a page or two from our asian counterparts),  prsions will continue to be a wharehouse of undesired behaviors large and small.
Are their any other parts of the U.S. constitution that you would like to see removed?

All so the average tax payer feels safe at night.
Perhaps you might explain just how locking up some dope smokin' hippie makes the average taxpayer feel safe at night.

quote:

MistressFuhrer
Inside prisons, when an inmate does something wrong to another,  there is retribution.  Often violent and public.  Everyone knows what happens,  and why they shouldnt do the same thing else they get beaten/raped/stabbed  etc etc

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

LadyE:
I had heard about the "tours" to Thailand but did not know that Vietnam did this sort of thing also.  It seems so out of keeping with their professed goals.  Is this just an opinion based on  geographical propinquity or do you have some hard data to substantiate this.
thompson