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RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 12:31:29 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Because people like you, Lemus, worry about it so much.

(in reply to Lumus)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 12:34:00 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2u

It seems to me that there are those who are submissive to their Dominant but will not submit to another submissive and will, in fact be dominant over them but, they still classify themself as a submissive because that's what they identify as.
 
Aren't some slaves dominant over other slaves or submissives?  Aren't they known as "Alpha slaves"?  So, would you consider an Alpha slave to be a "switch" rather than a submissive?

i hope this is in keeping with what you're talking about.  If it's totally off the mark, i apologize.  It's just that this is what came to my mind when i read your post and thought i would add it to the discussion.
 
joy
Owned servant of Master David


It's a little off-track, maybe, but it's true to my initial pondering about, to be sure.   'Alpha slave' is a new term for me, actually; it sounds like it might stem from the poly mindset, which I confess is more than a bit messy to me ["One woman is quite enough; take on four??  Are you -mad-??" ]  Given your use of it, I don't know that it would fall into the 'umbrella' [as it seems to be becoming] of the 'Switch' moniker.  I would liken it more to the first wife of a Mormon chap in a polygamous marital relationship.

Then again, since I don't know the term, I could be off.  Anyone else who can contribute on this scenario, I'd appreciate it.



_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to joy2u)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 12:39:38 PM   
PanthersMom


Posts: 2215
Joined: 11/26/2007
From: Cleveland Ohio
Status: offline 		people change and grow over the years, some drop habits and views of themselves and add others, some just add more to the mix.  all you can ask of a person is to be honest about themselves, either you want to be with that person as you get to know them or not is your choice.  for whatever reason, a person who has difficulty being honest or deciding what they want in life, is still in the processes you may have already gone through.  you can decide to stick around or not.  don't let it bother you, it's their problem.  they have to fix it, not you.

PM 

_____________________________

That which does not kill me, better run pretty damn fast

I miss my ex, but my aim is improving!




(in reply to Hotch)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 12:40:41 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Because people like you, Lemus, worry about it so much.



Ponder, yes; worry, no.  If I stop thinking, I stop being me; I stop worrying, I finally get to be me.  Make sense?

If you prefer, you can call this poking into self vs society; or you can call it enough of a waste of your time that it bothers you, but not enough of a waste that you won't post.

Or, you can call it me being stuck at home, ill; my girl being stuck in Texas, ill; and me having just enough free time on my hands to give this otherwise insignificant facet of human interactivity a glance. *chuckles*  Call it what you want, Michael.  In your next post, it would be nice to see a different kind of contribution.



_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 12:48:33 PM   
BlackPhx


Posts: 3432
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline 		It could be simply that like my Ex Husband s/he is a Switch who is stuck right now in Submissive Mode. Switches can go through cycles, even long periods where they identify more with one side than the other. That doesn't mean that you toss your sub out, they still have needs that you fulfill for them and vice versa, it just means that you are seeking a Dominant for the submissive side of your life.

Ex fell into sub mode 11 years ago and roused from time to time to enjoy Dominating someone for play dates, but remained primarily sub. Interestingly enough there is no way most people would peg him for a Sub.

poenkitten

(in reply to Lumus)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 12:49:47 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PanthersMom

people change and grow over the years, some drop habits and views of themselves and add others, some just add more to the mix.  all you can ask of a person is to be honest about themselves, either you want to be with that person as you get to know them or not is your choice.  for whatever reason, a person who has difficulty being honest or deciding what they want in life, is still in the processes you may have already gone through.  you can decide to stick around or not.  don't let it bother you, it's their problem.  they have to fix it, not you.

PM 


Heh.  I have enough 'fixes' to juggle; no worries there.  I don't want to fix, maybe extrapolate...you brought up a word that caught my eye, honesty.  Backtracking a moment in the thread - is public honesty a requirement if you are true to yourself?  I suppose it isn't mandatory, though it's something I strive to practice, myself.  That's why the concept of self-labelling vs societal labelling, especially in this community, is making me curious.  Then again, human dynamics intrigue me in general.



_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to PanthersMom)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 12:51:35 PM   
SubbieOnWheels


Posts: 590
Joined: 12/14/2007
Status: offline 		I have a friend who says she will occasionally "top" for a scene in a play party or club, but she's not really a switch; she's a sub who takes on a role when required to. She vehemently denies the title of "Switch."

I think also, people see the role title of "Swithc" and think, "Can't you make up your friggin' mind?" and decide to wait until the person in question has settled on a role. So the Switch puts down that they are the role that will bring them what they're looking for.

That's from my vast experience garnered over the course of a few short month.

_____________________________

Bethical
Beat me, strike me, take away my reindeer! I'll never tell! -- Walt Kelly, Pogo Possum
I yam what I yam - Popeye

http://www.myspace.com/bethical_wheels


(in reply to Hotch)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 1:01:50 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

It could be simply that like my Ex Husband s/he is a Switch who is stuck right now in Submissive Mode. Switches can go through cycles, even long periods where they identify more with one side than the other. That doesn't mean that you toss your sub out, they still have needs that you fulfill for them and vice versa, it just means that you are seeking a Dominant for the submissive side of your life.

Ex fell into sub mode 11 years ago and roused from time to time to enjoy Dominating someone for play dates, but remained primarily sub. Interestingly enough there is no way most people would peg him for a Sub.

poenkitten


Hmm.  Maybe the pegging is part of the problem.  Unfortunately, humans thrive on labels for verbal identity markers; and on a larger scale, when we pool into the seething mass that is humanity, generalizations overshadow the individual.

Still, even as others label us, we label ourselves, and from a politic view between the two is the fine line of honesty.  It might be better to be honest with oneself than with every Tom, Dick and Harry, or perhaps more important; but does that undermine our ability to interact?  I call myself a Dom; others call me a Dom; still others might just call me The Hairy-Faced Guy.  When I enter a society based on general BDSM concepts, though, and I see no 'Wookie' label, I default to what I am by that society's view - Dom.  Is it politically incorrect to expect the same of others, or just an unfortunate truth based on stigmas that already fester inside the concepts of BDSM as they are laid out, and then evolve [particularly around Switchery]?



_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to BlackPhx)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 1:11:35 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SubbieOnWheels

I have a friend who says she will occasionally "top" for a scene in a play party or club, but she's not really a switch; she's a sub who takes on a role when required to. She vehemently denies the title of "Switch."

I think also, people see the role title of "Swithc" and think, "Can't you make up your friggin' mind?" and decide to wait until the person in question has settled on a role. So the Switch puts down that they are the role that will bring them what they're looking for.

That's from my vast experience garnered over the course of a few short month.


This actually crystallizes what these posts have been leading me up to:

If you don't like a society's label for you, but you insist on being part of that society, do you reject the label for one of your own making; assume a different label bantered about within said society; or accept the label the society gives you?  Even with the flaws of said society [ie the reaction Switches get from those who do not understand them], is it more practical [the term honest would be misleading here, as I'm now wending down the path of self integrating into a group, as opposed to self versus the group] to say:

"I am this by the standards of this [BDSM] society - and these are the particulars of me that may gainsay the label..."

or to assume a different label and say, "I am this." without clarification?



_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to SubbieOnWheels)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 1:12:14 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I was thinking it could be an instance where one need has been fulfilled and the other has not, therefore the profile being tailored to what they seek.  Many switches don't bounce back and forth between Dom and sub with the same partner.  If they are already happy in expressing their (for example) Dom side in their current dynamic, they are only searching for the people who they would feel submissive to, and have geared their profile that way.

It could also be that they feel none of the labels really fit who they were and where they are just now.  Sometimes, only having, Dom, switch, or sub available doesn't cover all of the bases.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Lumus)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 1:19:40 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus
If you don't like a society's label for you, but you insist on being part of that society, do you reject the label for one of your own making; assume a different label bantered about within said society; or accept the label the society gives you?  Even with the flaws of said society [ie the reaction Switches get from those who do not understand them], is it more practical [the term honest would be misleading here, as I'm now wending down the path of self integrating into a group, as opposed to self versus the group] to say:

"I am this by the standards of this [BDSM] society - and these are the particulars of me that may gainsay the label..."

or to assume a different label and say, "I am this." without clarification?

Depends on the context :)  Many people who would traditionally be called "switch" create their own unique label which fits them better.  The limits of "switch" is often that people think of literal switch- something is either on or it's off.  That's not really how it tends to work- everything is "on" all the time, just like a slave is a slave all the time.  It simply is expressed and processed differently depending on the particular relationship with a particular person.

So the more common alternative term people use is something like "versatile" or "pan-oriented" which can help avoid the instant backlash of 'switch' and allow a broader perspective to the term.

It's the people who expect a "label" to really convey much information or be enough to tell the story that get frustrated.  Most people realize that labels are just quick references and to identify with an INDIVIDUAL, you have to go far beyond that in discussion.

I openly label myself as a switch because I'm not seriously or actively seeking any particular partners, because I want to be a proud example of how wrong all the stereotypes are, and because I feel it suits me best.

But if I were seriously seeking a submissive partner, and wanted to just focus on that for awhile and avoid the other crap, I certainly could see myself opening a profile centering only on my dominant orientation.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Lumus)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 1:22:40 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I was thinking it could be an instance where one need has been fulfilled and the other has not, therefore the profile being tailored to what they seek.  Many switches don't bounce back and forth between Dom and sub with the same partner.  If they are already happy in expressing their (for example) Dom side in their current dynamic, they are only searching for the people who they would feel submissive to, and have geared their profile that way.

It could also be that they feel none of the labels really fit who they were and where they are just now.  Sometimes, only having, Dom, switch, or sub available doesn't cover all of the bases.



True enough.  Even when a society tries to provide as few possible labels to cover the most number of people, some people are going to fall outside of the label umbrella and get wet.  Since an organic entity like a society or community rarely changes itself for one individual [or even a handful], it would only make sense that the individual would then have to pick the closest identifying label that suited them.  Still...with all the room a person has in a profile, clarifying details would be nice - assuming they weren't of such a personal nature that the person doesn't dare make them public.  Not expected, just nice to have as reference.

At that point, it's no longer the society, however; it's how individuals communicate amongst themselves.

- "I'm a Switch."
- "Great!  I'm a Dom.  What's your limits?"
- "Doms, at the moment.  I'm looking more for a boytoy...thanks."
- "Are you sure...?"
- "...just...die." <IG>

*ponders*



_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 1:32:13 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus

quote:

ORIGINAL: SubbieOnWheels

I have a friend who says she will occasionally "top" for a scene in a play party or club, but she's not really a switch; she's a sub who takes on a role when required to. She vehemently denies the title of "Switch."

I think also, people see the role title of "Swithc" and think, "Can't you make up your friggin' mind?" and decide to wait until the person in question has settled on a role. So the Switch puts down that they are the role that will bring them what they're looking for.

That's from my vast experience garnered over the course of a few short month.


This actually crystallizes what these posts have been leading me up to:

If you don't like a society's label for you, but you insist on being part of that society, do you reject the label for one of your own making; assume a different label bantered about within said society; or accept the label the society gives you?  Even with the flaws of said society [ie the reaction Switches get from those who do not understand them], is it more practical [the term honest would be misleading here, as I'm now wending down the path of self integrating into a group, as opposed to self versus the group] to say:

"I am this by the standards of this [BDSM] society - and these are the particulars of me that may gainsay the label..."

or to assume a different label and say, "I am this." without clarification?




OK - as someone who identifies as a submissive who can top and not a switch, I will give you my thoughts.
Switch does not fit who I am - so why on earth would I take a label that doesn't identify me correctly?  If I top and I am submissive whilst topping, I do not switch.  If I identified as a switch I would be misleading people.
Switch is far to limiting to honestly identify my abilities.
Submissive is what I am - much as switch is what other people are - topping is what I do - it is a service I can provide and therefore has nothing to do with the core of my being and is no different to being able to give great head or cook a fabulous meal.  Just because one tops, does not mean I am switching at all - on the contrary - I am submissive the entire time and throught the service.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Lumus)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 1:37:14 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus
If you don't like a society's label for you, but you insist on being part of that society, do you reject the label for one of your own making; assume a different label bantered about within said society; or accept the label the society gives you?  Even with the flaws of said society [ie the reaction Switches get from those who do not understand them], is it more practical [the term honest would be misleading here, as I'm now wending down the path of self integrating into a group, as opposed to self versus the group] to say:

"I am this by the standards of this [BDSM] society - and these are the particulars of me that may gainsay the label..."

or to assume a different label and say, "I am this." without clarification?

Depends on the context :)  Many people who would traditionally be called "switch" create their own unique label which fits them better.  The limits of "switch" is often that people think of literal switch- something is either on or it's off.  That's not really how it tends to work- everything is "on" all the time, just like a slave is a slave all the time.  It simply is expressed and processed differently depending on the particular relationship with a particular person.

So the more common alternative term people use is something like "versatile" or "pan-oriented" which can help avoid the instant backlash of 'switch' and allow a broader perspective to the term.

It's the people who expect a "label" to really convey much information or be enough to tell the story that get frustrated.  Most people realize that labels are just quick references and to identify with an INDIVIDUAL, you have to go far beyond that in discussion.

I openly label myself as a switch because I'm not seriously or actively seeking any particular partners, because I want to be a proud example of how wrong all the stereotypes are, and because I feel it suits me best.

But if I were seriously seeking a submissive partner, and wanted to just focus on that for awhile and avoid the other crap, I certainly could see myself opening a profile centering only on my dominant orientation.


Admittedly, that is one scenario I keep overlooking, LA.  Online you can have another profile, be another 'entity'...as opposed to the real-life models of societal interaction we've had up to this point.

Another thing holding me back in this discussion is my own personal inclinations.  I'm only a Dom, never had any desire beyond a capricious tongue-in-cheek comment or two to consider submitting.  I'm also heterosexual.  Rather like being stuck in the upper left-hand corner of Hollywood Squares, trying to see the middle box...

I like 'versatile' and 'pan-oriented'.  Maybe it's the brevity of the Internet life that tosses a few stones into the fray; long enough for people worldwide to connect over one idea, and for new terminology to evolve...without discarding any of the initial terminology.  The natural cycle of language up to this point has been for new terms to replace old ones, or for unused terms to quietly fade away.  Not so for this community from an Internet perspective...though it would be interesting to see how exactly it does eventually evolve...

Sorry.  I know, side tracked.  I do admire your willingness to base your profile on yourself despite the muddle of the term Switch; it resonates well with my own inner "ahh...been there, done that, this is who I am, guess you'll deal or not" attitude which I had to take on for myself at one point in my life.  I am curious...if you created a second profile, would you state in said profile [in your own words, of course], that you are also known as LA or LuckyAlbatross?



_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 1:40:23 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I would, but I'd understand if someone didn't.  In fact I DO have two profiles now, my other one is EmeraldSlave2, which I reference in my profile for LA (which is what most people refer to me on the forums).  I had ES2 way before I oriented myself as a switch.  But I kept it because it is who I am and something I wanted to remain part of. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Lumus)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 1:42:13 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus
I am curious...if you created a second profile, would you state in said profile [in your own words, of course], that you are also known as LA or LuckyAlbatross?


 - couldn't help but -
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Lumus)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 1:43:42 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

OK - as someone who identifies as a submissive who can top and not a switch, I will give you my thoughts.
Switch does not fit who I am - so why on earth would I take a label that doesn't identify me correctly?  If I top and I am submissive whilst topping, I do not switch.  If I identified as a switch I would be misleading people.
Switch is far to limiting to honestly identify my abilities.
Submissive is what I am - much as switch is what other people are - topping is what I do - it is a service I can provide and therefore has nothing to do with the core of my being and is no different to being able to give great head or cook a fabulous meal.  Just because one tops, does not mean I am switching at all - on the contrary - I am submissive the entire time and throught the service.
 
the.dark.


That's more or less what I was driving at, and thank you, the.dark.   Your case is a clear example of how a person can enter into a community like BDSM, choose one of the proferred labels, and then continue on to make it clear who you are as an individual - how you're more than the label [which LA and I were bantering about just now as to its effectiveness...or ineffectiveness, if you prefer].  Up to this point, there have been several examples of why one would prefer the latter option [majorally due to stigma and miscommunication on individual levels].  Nice to hear a shout from the other side of the fence.



_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 1:47:56 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		You are welcome!  Darcy is out tonight, but as he identifies in our profile, he is dominant and enjoys me topping as a service and quite clearly states he does not go sofar to identify as a switch which would mislead his orientation and position - regardless of anything - he is always in control.
 
Peace
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Lumus)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 1:49:20 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I would, but I'd understand if someone didn't.  In fact I DO have two profiles now, my other one is EmeraldSlave2, which I reference in my profile for LA (which is what most people refer to me on the forums).  I had ES2 way before I oriented myself as a switch.  But I kept it because it is who I am and something I wanted to remain part of. 


Initially I had a few threads of what you've stitched together in a much more concise fashion - and thanks for that.   I do understand more why a person might choose to not hold to the singular label; it just helps to banter it about with others for clarity.  On a personal level, I couldn't do it - but that's me.

*now debates inwardly whether to start calling you LA, ES2, or something random for a spot of tongue-in-cheeek...and if so, go with the safe generic like 'Lucy', or be more inventive with something like 'HorizontalHawtie'...*



_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: What I Am - 2/22/2008 1:50:51 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus
I am curious...if you created a second profile, would you state in said profile [in your own words, of course], that you are also known as LA or LuckyAlbatross?


 - couldn't help but -
 
the.dark.


Serves me right for not perving LA in a while.



_____________________________

<Talk to educate; listen to learn.>

~ the other half of "L&L" ~

I have been dubbed the Rainmaker. Do not make me take your water for my tribe.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 40
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