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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/25/2008 9:51:04 PM   
Vestonika


Posts: 95
Joined: 12/23/2007
Status: offline 		Correction... OLD SKOOL GOREANS focus on male dominance (and beer drinking).

The drinking is okay :)

New skool Goreans reject that nonsense and recognize that Gorean Slavery is the ultimate vehicle for the complete expression of Female kink. In the new model the 1950's style of Luddite Romanticism that characterizes much of the Old Skool model is rejected as archaic and just silly. There is also a deeper and more realistic perception, beyond the mere surface appearances that captivate the arrested adolescence of the old skool, that recognizes the so-called Gorean male "dominants" as actually being just functional cogs within the machina of Gorean Slavery, really just a service subspecies, whose job ultimately is to insure the JOY of women.

In the New Skool we actually train and own Gorean Slaves so the focus of our discussions are technical in nature and the practice of sophism practiced de riguer by old skoolers is as much of a time waster as the RV wagon train roundups around vacant lots and the wearing of discarded SCA costumes that captivate the near elderly participants of old skool goreanism as they fondle their swords. New Skool Goreans actually SCENE like normal BDSM people.

Silly theories like the moon is made of green cheese, the earth is flat, and males are "naturally dominant" rather than socially constructed are not encouraged. Girls always CHOOSE, those are the simple facts of life. that's why it's called the social MATRIX and not the social PATRIX.

Submissive males and dominant women are systemic and the new skool thinks it's just imbecilic to deny the reality of the human condition.

< Message edited by Vestonika -- 2/25/2008 10:46:28 PM >

(in reply to AtlantisKing111)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/25/2008 10:14:40 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
It's all about drinking ...


I completely agree!

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 1:09:21 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vestonika

Correction... OLD SKOOL GOREANS focus on male dominance (and beer drinking).

The drinking is okay :)

New skool Goreans reject that nonsense and recognize that Gorean Slavery is the ultimate vehicle for the complete expression of Female kink. In the new model the 1950's style of Luddite Romanticism that characterizes much of the Old Skool model is rejected as archaic and just silly. There is also a deeper and more realistic perception, beyond the mere surface appearances that captivate the arrested adolescence of the old skool, that recognizes the so-called Gorean male "dominants" as actually being just functional cogs within the machina of Gorean Slavery, really just a service subspecies, whose job ultimately is to insure the JOY of women.

In the New Skool we actually train and own Gorean Slaves so the focus of our discussions are technical in nature and the practice of sophism practiced de riguer by old skoolers is as much of a time waster as the RV wagon train roundups around vacant lots and the wearing of discarded SCA costumes that captivate the near elderly participants of old skool goreanism as they fondle their swords. New Skool Goreans actually SCENE like normal BDSM people.

Silly theories like the moon is made of green cheese, the earth is flat, and males are "naturally dominant" rather than socially constructed are not encouraged. Girls always CHOOSE, those are the simple facts of life. that's why it's called the social MATRIX and not the social PATRIX.

Submissive males and dominant women are systemic and the new skool thinks it's just imbecilic to deny the reality of the human condition.


Interesting....  guess I am New SKoOl then...but it sounds so hiphoppy to me.
But how you explain it...sounds logic....and explains a lot of things about myself and others.

_____________________________

~Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

(in reply to Vestonika)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 1:10:22 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

But what use do high standards have,,,when they lead to selfdestruction.


In the end you will be dust and bones, and every accomplishment you have will be ground to nothing under the heel of time.

What else actually matters, if not how you live while you are still alive?

They died standing for something; a good death, to their mind.

Will you be able to say the same when your day comes?

Health,
al-Aswad.



As leader of a whole clan..and having followers. You are also committed to keep your blood line alive. To have them killed for your own good...because one is stuborn to accept change...is wrong. It makes you fail as leader.
That was the downfall of many great leaders in history.

And yes...I will be able to say I died for a cause.. or at least goals I have.
It sounded like you said..all non samurais..have no goals in life. I am sure you don't mean that. But as the times got different..the goals in life change also. Mine is different from theirs...less voilent also...but as important to me. 

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 2/26/2008 1:13:54 AM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 1:42:51 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vestonika

Correction... OLD SKOOL GOREANS focus on male dominance (and beer drinking).

The drinking is okay :)

New skool Goreans reject that nonsense and recognize that Gorean Slavery is the ultimate vehicle for the complete expression of Female kink. In the new model the 1950's style of Luddite Romanticism that characterizes much of the Old Skool model is rejected as archaic and just silly. There is also a deeper and more realistic perception, beyond the mere surface appearances that captivate the arrested adolescence of the old skool, that recognizes the so-called Gorean male "dominants" as actually being just functional cogs within the machina of Gorean Slavery, really just a service subspecies, whose job ultimately is to insure the JOY of women.

In the New Skool we actually train and own Gorean Slaves so the focus of our discussions are technical in nature and the practice of sophism practiced de riguer by old skoolers is as much of a time waster as the RV wagon train roundups around vacant lots and the wearing of discarded SCA costumes that captivate the near elderly participants of old skool goreanism as they fondle their swords. New Skool Goreans actually SCENE like normal BDSM people.

Silly theories like the moon is made of green cheese, the earth is flat, and males are "naturally dominant" rather than socially constructed are not encouraged. Girls always CHOOSE, those are the simple facts of life. that's why it's called the social MATRIX and not the social PATRIX.

Submissive males and dominant women are systemic and the new skool thinks it's just imbecilic to deny the reality of the human condition.


I must say, that is the first time I've ever seen the books interpreted in quite that way. Soooo.. play Second Life much?

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Vestonika)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 1:56:23 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

As leader of a whole clan..and having followers. You are also committed to keep your blood line alive. To have them killed for your own good...because one is stuborn to accept change...is wrong. It makes you fail as leader. That was the downfall of many great leaders in history.


Again, it depends on what your values are, and what the change is.

I maintain that becoming the antithesis of all you hold dear is unacceptable to a man of integrity.

quote:

And yes...I will be able to say I died for a cause.. or at least goals I have.


Excellent.

quote:

It sounded like you said..all non samurais..have no goals in life. I am sure you don't mean that. But as the times got different..the goals in life change also. Mine is different from theirs...less voilent also...but as important to me.


I never implied that all non-samurai have no goals in life. But I would gladly say that most people go with the flow. And some goals are rather timeless; being able to face oneself in good conscience every day remains one that is popular with a certain kind of person.

As for violence, I wouldn't say their goals were inherently violent. It's something akin to what most good budoka will tell you: I practice daily to perfect my combat skills, and pray daily that I will not have cause to use them. It could be said that bushido is concerned with living in preparation for death. Not in the sense of exalting or anticipating it, but in the sense of living in such a way that one is always prepared to depart this life.

Consider for a moment the scenario Trevelyan mentioned: that a nuclear warhead will impact your city in 20 minutes. How would you spend those 20 minutes? That tells you what is truly important in your life; what you can't put off for tomorrow. That is the perspective from which bushido is lived, as I've had it explained. And it is how I live my life, although my values aren't by any means identical.

You don't always get a choice in what life throws at you, including death.

But you can always choose to face it on your feet.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Justme696)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 1:59:42 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

As leader of a whole clan..and having followers. You are also committed to keep your blood line alive. To have them killed for your own good...because one is stuborn to accept change...is wrong. It makes you fail as leader. That was the downfall of many great leaders in history.


Again, it depends on what your values are, and what the change is.

I maintain that becoming the antithesis of all you hold dear is unacceptable to a man of integrity.

quote:

And yes...I will be able to say I died for a cause.. or at least goals I have.


Excellent.

quote:

It sounded like you said..all non samurais..have no goals in life. I am sure you don't mean that. But as the times got different..the goals in life change also. Mine is different from theirs...less voilent also...but as important to me.


I never implied that all non-samurai have no goals in life. But I would gladly say that most people go with the flow. And some goals are rather timeless; being able to face oneself in good conscience every day remains one that is popular with a certain kind of person.

As for violence, I wouldn't say their goals were inherently violent. It's something akin to what most good budoka will tell you: I practice daily to perfect my combat skills, and pray daily that I will not have cause to use them. It could be said that bushido is concerned with living in preparation for death. Not in the sense of exalting or anticipating it, but in the sense of living in such a way that one is always prepared to depart this life.

Consider for a moment the scenario Trevelyan mentioned: that a nuclear warhead will impact your city in 20 minutes. How would you spend those 20 minutes? That tells you what is truly important in your life; what you can't put off for tomorrow. That is the perspective from which bushido is lived, as I've had it explained. And it is how I live my life, although my values aren't by any means identical.

You don't always get a choice in what life throws at you, including death.

But you can always choose to face it on your feet.

Health,
al-Aswad.



you always make me think..which is a good thing. Yes agree...there are so many ways to view it.
Thank you for the alternative view.

quote:

How would you spend those 20 minutes?   


scream like crazy?? Seriously  I wouldn't know. But it makes one think. Perhaps I just will think back about life.
Everything you do in that 20 minutes..will have no impact..because there is no one to evaluate it purpose anymore.
But as a way to think of life..it is very good. I used to plan things way ahead...en getting disappointed unexpected influences disturbed the plans. Now I live more in the "20 minutes scenerio" and set ..kind of milestones....I am happy with succeeding in those...even though the main target may never be reached. So ..many succesfull small steps... reduce the risk to faill...instead of doing one big step..with all risk attached.
small steps also give you a better overview...so you can adjust the way you act..to get to the end goal.
~Plan Do Check Act~
But life doesn't allow it always....but it is good..to have some control of how things go..when you can.

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 2/26/2008 2:08:42 AM >

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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 2:59:45 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

you always make me think..which is a good thing. Yes agree...there are so many ways to view it.
Thank you for the alternative view.


You're welcome. If I can inspire even one person to think about something important from another angle, I'm happy.

quote:

Seriously I wouldn't know. But it makes one think. Perhaps I just will think back about life.


It's something I thought about a long time ago, and it was a rather profound experience. Some people lose a loved one, only to realize there are a thousand things they would have liked to say, but never got a chance to. Or they are in an accident, and suddenly realize they've been going about life the wrong way. A close relative of mine was hospitalized around Christmas, with acute myeloid leukemia and multiply resistant pneumonia plus various secondary infections. It's sad, of course, but we don't have anything unresolved between us.

It shouldn't take death to appreciate life, and the people we live with, but that's frequently the case.

quote:

Everything you do in that 20 minutes..will have no impact..because there is no one to evaluate it purpose anymore.


As it always has been. Some nations are rattling their nuclear sabers today. In 2036, there's a 1 in 45.000 chance of an extinction event on Earth. In 2038, the 32 binary digit time counters used in modern computing will overflow. By the end of the Halocene, humanity will either be extinct, or settled on multiple planets. In about 5 billion years, the sun will move into its red gigant phase, and the surface of the Earth will be scorched and the atmosphere blown away; any remains of civilization or traces of its existance are most likely going to be wiped out. At any point in time, a vacuum metastability event may destroy the universe. At some point, the universe will undergo heat death, a big crunch or a big rip.

Entropy and its unidirectional flow through time ensures that whatever you do, it won't have a lasting impact.

What matters is what matters to you, and what matters to those who matter to you.

You don't have forever; you have here and now.

quote:

But as a way to think of life..it is very good.


Such has been my conclusion, as well. It's pretty much the only good thing about death. It also lends itself to avoiding compromise, because the pragmatic concerns that all too often make us compromise who we are and what we hold dear, are really rather irrelevant in the face of death. The thing that matters is exactly that which circumstances would tend to make us compromise. To exist, rather than to live, is how I view that. And while many samurai were simply drunk on power and afraid of the consequences of losing it, some were idealists who could not accept a living death.

We get this moment to defy entropy, or to surrender to it; most pick the latter.

quote:

I used to plan things way ahead...en getting disappointed unexpected influences disturbed the plans. Now I live more in the "20 minutes scenerio" and set ..kind of milestones....I am happy with succeeding in those...even though the main target may never be reached. So ..many succesfull small steps... reduce the risk to faill...instead of doing one big step..with all risk attached.


There's nothing wrong with planning ahead, or taking big leaps. Aiming high ensures that, while you may miss your mark, you will go higher than the bulk of those who never aim in the first place, or those that aim low. If you're going to visit someone in another state, there will be turns in the road, gas stations and so forth. But you still have a place to go, and a plan to get there.

Perspective is the trick. Not sacrificing life now for life tomorrow.

Which again ties in with values and facing oneself in the mirror without fear or lies.

Health,
al-Aswad.

P.S.: These things are not only part and parcel of living Gorean; they're the substance of life itself, IMO.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Justme696)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 3:10:17 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

It shouldn't take death to appreciate life, and the people we live with, but that's frequently the case.

That is one of the most important things I learned the last 10 years afther loosing people 1 afther 1. The things you wanted to say..you should do in life. Regret is a life ruiner especially when you can't adjust/fix it anymore.

quote:

What matters is what matters to you, and what matters to those who matter to you.

This is how I live... and it feels great ;)
I committed myself to this.
bit offtopic...although people might dislike the word satanisme.... Lavey often points to this (at least in my view ;) )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Szandor_LaVey

quote:

These things are not only part and parcel of living Gorean; they're the substance of life itself, IMO.  

agree...these count for us all...
And it is good to read them. Because often you know things..but a reminder makes them more vivid.

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 2/26/2008 3:15:10 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 3:30:58 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

That is one of the most important things I learned the last 10 years afther loosing people 1 afther 1. The things you wanted to say..you should do in life. Regret is a life ruiner especially when you can't adjust/fix it anymore.


Feel free to pass on the "20 minutes scenario," etc.

I think the world would be a better place if more people learned that lesson before these things happen.

quote:

bit offtopic...although people might dislike the word satanisme.... Lavey often points to this (at least in my view ;)


He's not the only one.

And Satanism isn't really a good word for it.

To be a good Satanist, read the Bible; it has all the clues, really.

quote:

And it is good to read them. Because often you know things..but a reminder makes them more vivid.


Quite.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Justme696)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 3:45:35 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

  Feel free to pass on the "20 minutes scenario," etc.

I think the world would be a better place if more people learned that lesson before these things happen.


Actually it is one of the first things I learn/tell my girls (subs/slaves).
I find it very important.

quote:

He's not the only one.
And Satanism isn't really a good word for it.
To be a good Satanist, read the Bible; it has all the clues, really.


Haha yes. I read the bible. But Lavey and even Crowley  are interesting extra's.
I heard lately so much interesting things about certain people..I should head to the bookstores to buy soemthing to read again.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 3:59:47 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

Actually it is one of the first things I learn/tell my girls (subs/slaves). I find it very important.


Sounds like a good thing to me.

quote:

Haha yes. I read the bible. But Lavey and even Crowley  are interesting extra's.


I found what the former said to be rather superficial.

The latter, though, has a few things to say, though he's not particularly lucid about it, IMO.

quote:

I heard lately so much interesting things about certain people..I should head to the bookstores to buy soemthing to read again.


If you'd care for some recommendations, I'd mention The Anti-Christ (Nietzsche), On the Genealogy of Morality (Nietzsche), The Sword of Truth (Terry Goodkind), The Wheel of Time (Robert Jordan) and anything by Jiddu Krishnamurti. Those books cover a lot of ground that has been important to me, at least. YMMV.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Justme696)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 4:12:02 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Yes Lavey put in a lot of sarcasm/black humor (never know when he is serious/he lets peole look at themself though)....and Crowly  sadly liked alcohol and drugs a lott.
Don't make them an easy read.

Thank you for the advise on the literature. I will start to look for them tonight.
Which one would you personally advise?

again..thank you

Damian


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Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 4:15:20 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

Which one would you personally advise?


The Wheel of Time or The Sword of Truth. Both are entertaining series of novels. They're fantasy, sure, but also manage to pack in a lot of great food for thought. The former does so in a more effortless manner, and is a better read overall. The latter is more attuned to certain undervalued aspects of Gorean thought, but also happens to be of variable quality throughout. There's a marked departure from the initial course after 9/11, to put it that way. My choice would be the former.

That said, those suggestions were a selection of reccomendations. The full list is much longer.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Justme696)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 5:06:10 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

Which one would you personally advise?


The Wheel of Time or The Sword of Truth. Both are entertaining series of novels. They're fantasy, sure, but also manage to pack in a lot of great food for thought. The former does so in a more effortless manner, and is a better read overall. The latter is more attuned to certain undervalued aspects of Gorean thought, but also happens to be of variable quality throughout. There's a marked departure from the initial course after 9/11, to put it that way. My choice would be the former.

That said, those suggestions were a selection of reccomendations. The full list is much longer.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Haha please wait with the full list.
I think these 2 will be a good start. If I am lucky they are translated..else I go for the english version.

Damian

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 5:39:41 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		General ...
 
I'm not Gorean, not a slave, not even a submissive really. We covered this in an earlier post  ... BUT, the diffence, as it relates to this website, is simple enough.
 
When some jerk comes to the BDSM section and acts like a jerk, they are looked at as some jerk that posted in the BDSM section.
 
When some jerk comes to the Gorean section and acts like a jerk, they are looked at as another one of those jerk Goreans.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to Justme696)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 5:43:58 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

General ...
 
I'm not Gorean, not a slave, not even a submissive really. We covered this in an earlier post  ... BUT, the diffence, as it relates to this website, is simple enough.
 
When some jerk comes to the BDSM section and acts like a jerk, they are looked at as some jerk that posted in the BDSM section.
 
When some jerk comes to the Gorean section and acts like a jerk, they are looked at as another one of those jerk Goreans.


agree. But I don't think the OP means acting like a jerk beeing the problem. But more a general feeling of beeing unwanted by Goreans as a person.

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 2/26/2008 5:44:28 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 6:08:06 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		This is meant as a small example, as it relates to this website ... as opposed to the bigger issue at hand. Each reader, can do the math on their own.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Gorean's??? - 2/26/2008 12:47:25 PM   
Vestonika


Posts: 95
Joined: 12/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vestonika

Correction... OLD SKOOL GOREANS focus on male dominance (and beer drinking).

The drinking is okay :)

New skool Goreans reject that nonsense and recognize that Gorean Slavery is the ultimate vehicle for the complete expression of Female kink. In the new model the 1950's style of Luddite Romanticism that characterizes much of the Old Skool model is rejected as archaic and just silly. There is also a deeper and more realistic perception, beyond the mere surface appearances that captivate the arrested adolescence of the old skool, that recognizes the so-called Gorean male "dominants" as actually being just functional cogs within the machina of Gorean Slavery, really just a service subspecies, whose job ultimately is to insure the JOY of women.

In the New Skool we actually train and own Gorean Slaves so the focus of our discussions are technical in nature and the practice of sophism practiced de riguer by old skoolers is as much of a time waster as the RV wagon train roundups around vacant lots and the wearing of discarded SCA costumes that captivate the near elderly participants of old skool goreanism as they fondle their swords. New Skool Goreans actually SCENE like normal BDSM people.

Silly theories like the moon is made of green cheese, the earth is flat, and males are "naturally dominant" rather than socially constructed are not encouraged. Girls always CHOOSE, those are the simple facts of life. that's why it's called the social MATRIX and not the social PATRIX.

Submissive males and dominant women are systemic and the new skool thinks it's just imbecilic to deny the reality of the human condition.


I must say, that is the first time I've ever seen the books interpreted in quite that way. Soooo.. play Second Life much?

Celeste


No I never have, but I've heard about it.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 199
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