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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:06:52 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: featheredequine
I've found most lifestyle Goreans to be quite sane and in touch with themselves and why they choose to follow something outlined in a badly written sci-fi series. And surprisingly very little of it has to do with slaves. Or the whole all women are slaves line. It has much more to do with personal integrity, finding truth as something outside of what society dictates, and being true to yourself. And most of them have been incredibly respectful to me and my choices.

That's a good point.  There is, I believe, an interesting parallel to that within BDSM.  I've encountered a number of "kinksters" who are essentially looking for the same thing.  I see it in debates about whether BDSM is "spiritual" or not.  I saw it in one individual who incorporated bushido code and the behavior of the samurai (right down to how his home was decorated and even how he dressed, ate, and behaved at home) into his "BDSM lifestyle."  What I find interesting about all of it is what it indicates about a growing percentage of the population.

There seems a growing disatisfaction with current values.  People are looking for something to believe in, a code of conduct and ethics to live by, a philosophy that helps them define themselves, their world, and their place in that world.  It would seem that increasingly traditional religion and current popular culture are not meeting that need.  People are turning to alternatives, whether that be Gor, Wicca, Goths, Satanists, etc.  All offer alternative systems of beliefs and philosophy to groups of people disastified or disenfranchised by current culture.  We live in interesting times.

Personally, I'm still waiting for the Nieztscheans to catch on.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:07:46 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

Personally, I'm still waiting for the Nieztscheans to catch on.


please not..I had a shrink as slave once and she kept quoting    sigh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche





< Message edited by Justme696 -- 2/24/2008 9:09:15 AM >

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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:14:49 AM   
ygraine


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Status: offline 		Kinky Ayn Rand?
I have to think about that one!
Goreans tend not to be objectivists, in my experience, although I could be wrong.
I was also interested in your comments about elaborate rituals around slaves? Do you mean like protocol stuff? Could you elaborate (lol sorry for the pun).
I am not trying to set you up here, I am just interested in your views and where some of this is coming from.  I spend a lot of time with Goreans (not in chat rooms much though anymore) and I dont see too much protocol although I have been around awhile so maybe it doesnt seem like ritual to me anymore?
Thanks!
Y

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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:16:54 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

Kinky Ayn Rand?
I have to think about that one!
Goreans tend not to be objectivists, in my experience, although I could be wrong.
I was also interested in your comments about elaborate rituals around slaves? Do you mean like protocol stuff? Could you elaborate (lol sorry for the pun).
I am not trying to set you up here, I am just interested in your views and where some of this is coming from.  I spend a lot of time with Goreans (not in chat rooms much though anymore) and I dont see too much protocol although I have been around awhile so maybe it doesnt seem like ritual to me anymore?
Thanks!
Y


I had a real life kajira.....and we had protocols...I love the positions...the rest was her unlimited obiediance. The goreans on IRC..live on the protocols (3rd person talk...offering food...serving every Master etc).

hope you didn't mind me answering


< Message edited by Justme696 -- 2/24/2008 9:20:01 AM >

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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:18:31 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Padriag,

I have to question this...

quote:

I suppose that's the simplest answer to the OP's question... the difference between BDSM and Gor is simply this... BDSM tends to be only one aspect of a person's life... Gor tends to form a basis for the self image and world view, the style of life, of an individual.  BDSM is a kink, Gor has become a belief system.


That is exactly why I have an issue with gorians.  BDSM has its worldview as well.  We worry about consensuality of even vanillas.  We stress honesty and communication.  We prefer openness and acceptance of others.  The list goes on.

We are no better at doing this universally than the Gor folk or anyone else but that doesn't invalidate it as a world view.

Gor is a kinky version of Ayn Rand and in that sense, yes, it is a belief system but it certainly isn't unique in being one.

I think BDSM has at times been a belief system, and at other times, just a kink.  From what I've read about the Leathermen, the so called Old Guard, for them it probably was a belief system, a philosophy.  You had a group of individuals who were disatisfied and disenfranchised by mainstream culture.  In reaction to that, they formed their own belief system and world view, and used that to define themselves and their place in the world.  But, at some point that changed.  Don't ask me to pin down exactly where, I don't know and I don't know that there are sufficient historical records to ever do so.  But probably it happened as that older form of BDSM gained popularity and others took an interest in it.  In otherwords, probably somewhere around the time the heterosexuals started becoming the majority.  With that change came a change in the role of BDSM.  For most of those heterosexuals, they weren't disenfranchised or disatisfied with mainstream culture, but they were sexually adventerous.  BDSM shifted from being a style of life to being a kink... it became about sex and the taboo, and the social aspects of the "Old Guard" largely fell out of use.  The interesting thing, as I noted in a previous post, is that I see a shifting trend now, towards again evolving a belief system and philosophy out of BDSM... making it "spiritual" and a basis for a world view in its own right.  I think that's going to be an interesting development to watch.

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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:28:08 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

Personally, I'm still waiting for the Nieztscheans to catch on.


please not..I had a shrink as slave once and she kept quoting    sigh

LOL... it was a bit of a double entendre... and a personal joke.

On the one hand, it could be taken literally as a group basing a style of life on the work of Nietzsche.

On the other are the so-called "Nietzscheans" from the TV show Andromeda.  Take your pick.

As for the personal joke... I once suggested he could find everything he liked about Gor in Nietzsche... minus the bad fiction and naked women.  But then Gor can be compared to a lot of things precisely because Norman borrowed from so much.  Whether that be the myths about cowboys or vikings, Nietzsche or Ayn Rand, bushido or chivalry, saracens or celts... there's a little of each in what he created and that is perhaps part of why Gor has had a surprisingly broad appeal and so many seem able to identify with it.

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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:29:41 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

Personally, I'm still waiting for the Nieztscheans to catch on.


please not..I had a shrink as slave once and she kept quoting    sigh

LOL... it was a bit of a double entendre... and a personal joke.

On the one hand, it could be taken literally as a group basing a style of life on the work of Nietzsche.

On the other are the so-called "Nietzscheans" from the TV show Andromeda.  Take your pick.

As for the personal joke... I once suggested he could find everything he liked about Gor in Nietzsche... minus the bad fiction and naked women.  But then Gor can be compared to a lot of things precisely because Norman borrowed from so much.  Whether that be the myths about cowboys or vikings, Nietzsche or Ayn Rand, bushido or chivalry, saracens or celts... there's a little of each in what he created and that is perhaps part of why Gor has had a surprisingly broad appeal and so many seem able to identify with it.


ahh  ok   lol
but I would prefer Nietzsche with the naked ladies though  ;)
just with out the shrink part..


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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:32:50 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

ahh  ok   lol
but I would prefer Nietzsche with the naked ladies though  ;)
just with out the shrink part..


LOL... I think that falls under the "bring your own" policy.

Then again, Nietzsche would probably have intoned that we could have as many naked ladies as we were capable of acquiring on our own.   Or shrinks for that matter.  LOL

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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:33:49 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		On the one hand, it could be taken literally as a group basing a style of life on the work of Nietzsche.

Nietzsche is not Pietzsche to most Goreans, they would not buy into a 'conquer until you perish' sort of paradigm.

Neitzsche (as well as other philosophers) have been compared and contrasted (and often misspelled) many times on the Gorean Forums.

search for it.

Odin the one-eyed (king in the land of the blind, no?)

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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:39:02 AM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		While this may offend some folks, that is not likely to keep me up tonight. These baords are my first experience with Goreans? Gorists? Gostovistas? That was not about alot of dumbass role play. I go to the boards, I read them. I have swaped points of view with some of them. All in all they are of a somewhat strict philisophical bend. If it is working for them, it's cool with me. They can also be damn funny!..:)

Jeff

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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:41:33 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

While this may offend some folks, that is not likely to keep me up tonight. These baords are my first experience with Goreans? Gorists? Gostovistas? That was not about alot of dumbass role play. I go to the boards, I read them. I have swaped points of view with some of them. All in all they are of a somewhat strict philisophical bend. If it is working for them, it's cool with me. They can also be damn funny!..:)

Jeff


think this is the first thing...that doesn't offend people..lol


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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:45:07 AM   
Jeffff


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Status: offline 		It was bound to happen.......no one is perfect..:)

Jeff

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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:46:39 AM   
Nosathro


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Status: offline 		I first would like to say that I am glad to see a discussion about Gor and Gorean go well without going into a flame war as I have seen in the past.  Everyone experience is unique to that person and with those experiences we develop our point of view.  I think that for all of us, what it comes down to is, we don't have to like what the other person does or believe, but we should respect them.
 
I wish you well

Nosathro

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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 9:52:30 AM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

I first would like to say that I am glad to see a discussion about Gor and Gorean go well without going into a flame war as I have seen in the past.  Everyone experience is unique to that person and with those experiences we develop our point of view.  I think that for all of us, what it comes down to is, we don't have to like what the other person does or believe, but we should respect them.
 
I wish you well

Nosathro


Oh I disagree......lol respect is given to those worthy. It doesn't meatter if it is here or anywhere. An asshole is an asshole.

Jeff

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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 10:06:02 AM   
Paulsgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

I first would like to say that I am glad to see a discussion about Gor and Gorean go well without going into a flame war as I have seen in the past.  Everyone experience is unique to that person and with those experiences we develop our point of view.  I think that for all of us, what it comes down to is, we don't have to like what the other person does or believe, but we should respect them.
 
I wish you well

Nosathro

de....ditto


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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 10:10:00 AM   
Paulsgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

An asshole is an asshole.

Jeff

de juro e herdade

ps in other words once an arsehole always an arsehole
with thanks to the Lord of all Arseholes in His Glory


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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 10:23:00 AM   
KatyLied


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quote:

we don't have to like what the other person does or believe, but we should respect them.


Really?  There are definitely people who do things that are harmful and/or repulsive.  Why should I respect them?


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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 10:28:39 AM   
Rule


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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 11:02:44 AM   
Sundowner


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Status: offline 		Years ago, on mIRC, I popped into a Gor chatroom where I was pleasantly welcomed. Chatted a while then was invited to PM by a slavegirl. Who quite quickly wanted to scene.

Well scening for me then was all about punishment, so she pretty quickly found hersel chained to a whipping post with a deliciously descriptive commentary of how the lash struck her naked back etc. I was really cool, brilliantly inspired with my sophisticated erotic phrasing. Was she turned on!

Well actually no. Not at all. She blurted out (first time I've seen someone typing a blurt) that she was deeply upset and actually crying at her keyboard and left the room. Did I feel a pillock! And only later came to understand that Gor can be totally not about pain and punishment.

So a useful lesson for me and an example of how easy it is for someone with one view of play to upset deeply someone with a different view.


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RE: Gorean's??? - 2/24/2008 11:03:20 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

....I saw it in one individual who incorporated bushido code and the behavior of the samurai (right down to how his home was decorated and even how he dressed, ate, and behaved at home) into his "BDSM lifestyle." 


A very good comparison.  Leaving the BDSM out completely, that sort of thing, like coming to work and insisting on being addressed by one's SCA rank, or sending memos around the office in Klingon, is exactly the sort of 'missing the point' behavior that seems to some to exemplify certain Goreans.

The samurai didn't get to be samurai by mimicking the decor, food, dress, and so forth of something they read about that was completely foreign to their culture and upbringing.
They didn't develop their adherence to codes by sitting around trying to catch flies with chopsticks, and grunting like someone from a movie about samurai.
They were samurai because that is who they were innately...and to quote Charlie Wood...you can't teach that stuff.

No matter how many topknots one puts in their hair, or how many kenjutsu lessons they take, or how many trips to the mall they make in a kimono, or how many meals they eat sitting on the floor, they are never going to be samurai, and they are not going to actually be living bushido.

IMHO, the same applies to reading about another culture that defines 'honor' according to behaviors and concepts like homestones and tarn strikes, and attempting to incorporate it into one's environment.

Someone has either accomplished a tarn strike or they haven't...either they've killed another man with a sword over homestones, or they haven't...and either they are innately honorable, or they aren't. 
You can't just read it in a book, and claim 'Oh yeah...that's me, right there!'

And I believe that anyone in the BDSM side of things who named their home 'Roissy', and pretended to be minor French nobility, and called their sub 'O' while making her wear an owl mask to the store would be seen as similarly not getting it.

On the other hand, one can read Jack Rinella, Gloria Brame, Jay Wiseman, John Warren, et al. and go 'Hey...there are others out there that feel the same as I do'...because innately, like the samurai, one is either kinky or they are not.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 2/24/2008 11:05:31 AM >

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