RE: Gorean's??? (Full Version)

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Gwynvyd -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 6:42:25 PM)

See.. I knew I liked you for a reason..

"Here is where the friction takes place, there are a lot of groups (Old Guard, Victorian, New Leather, SSC mainstreamist, etc) that have thier own idea of what a utopian society is and what protocols are needed to attain that perfect balance of domination and submission. They also believe for various reasons that thier adherance to thier codes puts them in a morally superior position and all the other groups are just pale imitations of thier utopian society and they also expect people to respect this "fact" and acknowledge it self evident perfection.

What ever group or cliche you join there is a sense of support and acceptance that makes you willing to accept the rules and protocols and if it makes you happy there is the natural assumption it will work for anyone once they give it a chance. When you encounter someone from another camp you want to share your enlightened position so they can share your revelations and make them happy. If they are already happy in their group and society they will not appreciate this attempt to undermine a perfect utopian situation with something that could not possibly work for yada yada yada reasons.

This tension and intolerance is a perspective schisim each group adament it's philosophy is the correct, more reasonable, and perfect course and any other course is flawed and if they would just open thier eyes and come to thier senses they would come to undertand why and join thier group."


Yep... ditto


Gwyn



Rule -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 6:43:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07
Can anyone explain to me the difference between BDSM and Gorean?

Ehm.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07
why do Gorean's find it so offensive to be connected to BDSM?

Because.



Rule -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 6:48:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
There are also some of us who belong to no 'subgroups' whatsoever and who are, before anything, even before BDSM, human beings with a very personal outlook on life. I have no desire to belong to any group.
It seems to me that any sub belongs to the sub group, not so? [;)]



kittinSol -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 6:52:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

It seems to me that any sub belongs to the sub group, not so? [;)]



Sure, you can say whatever you like... I can say all Doms drink Dom Perignon. Doesn't make me right though [;)] . (Unfortunately.)



Gwynvyd -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 7:19:12 PM)

I think it is akin to a bit of what has been posted.. and yes there are a few who if they tip toe onto the Gorean side of things and post (esp. as a female) you do tend to get your head bit off if you do not have the correct things in your profile, or the correct greetings down pat. Some are more touchy about it then others.... I find some of the conversations over there interesting.. and if something good scrolls across the marquee I will click on it and go read it no matter what forum it is in. Some times I leave input.. usualy I just back out.. go cool off.. make a drink and lie down for a while. *chuckles* ( the forced slavery in our own backyard thread being such a thread) I have seen where some have gone to the "Gorean Side" and asked questions.. some have been snippy and thinly veiled in contrite rudeness... and had thier asses handed to them.. some have asked nicely.. and had thier asses handed to them. Some times they get nice replies. LOL They seem ( to me) to be a very cliquish lot. Thats cool. A close knit community.. I can dig that.
Some of it is a bit spooky when any desenters are ridden out on a rail. Here on the other side.. we just leave it off until the next thread usualy. I can think of some serious discussions that just get dropped, and we pick up our balls and go play with each other the next day ( yeah someone is gonna make a comment on that I know!)

I think ( just little ol me here) that a big differance between the BDSMers and the Goreans is the level of filtration into every day life for some. There are lifestylers out there in both camps who live it 24/7 and some who play on weekends and at conventions. Some BDSMers have a code of conduct or honor personaly.. and it happens to fall in line with what also happens in thier personal and sexual life in the community. With the Goreans I have hung out with and been around it seems like the opposite. The ideas from the novels and the codes came from thier Gorean ideas.. and spread into thier life. Things seem to be judged worthy or un worthy comparing it to the novels or WWJND? ( Hmm I wonder if those braclets would sell... Hmmm). I am not saying basing your moral code and way of life on a book is bad.. look at the Xtians.. but I think it all needs some temperance.. and sneering down your nose at anyone who does not see your way as the superior way of life ( in any camp period) needs to have thier reality check cashed. It might bounce.. but hey.. cash it in. I have a Gorean Master friend who for the first while wanted me to call him by some title.. he is a master.. not mine.. just a really good friend. I took to calling him Patty Cake because his name is Patrick. I buy him Patrick the starfish stuffies and toys to keep him humble. We seriously respect and love one another... but I had to be sure that he knew that even though it was his culture... I was not a willing "girl" to submit to his manlieness. Even though he is damn hot. He doesnt call me Goddess Gwyn either. *snarfles* We swap stories of how we Dom/me and all is cool. We realised the other wasnt going to change we were both happy just the way we were.. and we respected each others culture of kink.

I do not think that either one is "better then the other" or has higher standards, or deserves more respect. Just simply different strokes for different folks. I hope that others will have the same courtesy and be able to talk with others without judging thier choices.. and trying to force thier views on them.

Personaly I could never be a Kajira.. and thats ok. I do just fine with being my very own Warrior Bitch Goddess as my loves call me.

Gwyn



Lashra -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 8:05:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

ORIGINAL: bleusparkles

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

Somehow I always think people are afraid to respond to goreans...but do respond to other difficult questions..
IS that just a feeling I have or is it true?



Goreans have this reputation for lobbing the heads off people who respond in ways they don't find agreeable ... That could be it. :)



yes but why have a thread to discuss..when all fear them...lol    ffs we are online..what can happen?


I don't think any one fears them, I certainly do not. Its just on various forums that I have been to if you try to discuss something with them and your not a Gorean they want to have a flame war. So what would be the point? You won't change their minds and they won't change yours. Better to leave them to argue amongst themselves.

~Lashra



BitaTruble -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 8:06:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

i thought about posting this in the Gorean section, but as i'm clearly not gorean i was afraid i'd offend someone. Can anyone explain to me the difference between BDSM and Gorean? And why do Gorean's find it so offensive to be connected to BDSM?
Thanks,
Kali



I wouldn't worry about offending anyone. Most likely, you would have been told to use the search button and read the archives.

As for the difference between BDSM and Gor: BDSM is an acronym pertaining to certain activities (D/s being a separate area in my mind) and Gor is a philosophy. Think about the difference between Christianity and BDSM, Taoism and BDSM, Buddism and BDSM and you'll have the gist of things. You can embrace a Gorist philosophy and get your kicks with BDSM just like you can be a Christian and get your kicks with BDSM.

Perhaps you'd rather explore the difference between Gor and M/s? For that, I'd have a different opinion.

Celeste



xBullx -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 8:10:32 PM)

-fast reply-

There are at least three sides to every story.............

Some stories have more sides than that.............

This thread has been revealing of some things; others not so much................

I'll start you down a different side, if all sides of the story really matter go find the truth..............

There are Living Goreans, these are the kind that are supposed to be participating in the Gorean Forum on this site, that's part of the TOS, The Gorean section is not about role playing.............

There are also Online Role Play Goreans, and they are certainly entitled to their leisure time activities, and the fact is this is the group that most other BDSM particpants have drawn their opinions from, these people tend to literally play out things in an online setting as they read them in the books...........

Goreans are included within the BDSM circle mainly because of the M/s factor, while a Gorean will view morality differently there are similarities with other lifestyles in this reguard. This alternate morality is not something we see as wrong or right, it is simply different. Goreans that live away from the cyber waves don't have trouble with the BDSM link, hell I have sadistic tendancies and fetishes and like certain things that are all to BDSM. Most living Goreans look at the term BDSM as a heading for activities, kinks and fetishes not as a seperate lifestyle such as Leather, Old Guard and others. This may not be what all people think, but it is a common opinion among us. Many Goreans don't deny interest or particpation in BDSM activities, but for us this lifestyle is about much more than our perception or conduct of the M/s condition..............

If you look through the response that have been posted prior to mine you will start to realize just why we are standoffish. Many base their opinions about us using faulty or incomplete information. Sure you will find brash Goreans, you will find deceitful, vicious, arrogent and intollerent Goreans. But hell every lifestyle on this board can brag that. The Gorean morality focuses primarily on all social interactions, not just the M/s aspect. That is one reason Goreans can be testy towards those that say its all about BDSM and slaves.

View the comments prior to mine and ask yourself why we are less than amicable. I'm not gonna answer all the reason why we're here and what we think about BDSM or the other lifestyles, the fact is, I did that today in a thread on our board.

Let me ask you this, if everyone told you that you were a fanatic and believe in a fictional world, would you be all cheery and friendly?

I hope this helps some.

Bull






BitaTruble -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 8:14:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra
I don't think any one fears them, I certainly do not. Its just on various forums that I have been to if you try to discuss something with them and your not a Gorean they want to have a flame war. So what would be the point? You won't change their minds and they won't change yours. Better to leave them to argue amongst themselves.

~Lashra


I do agree that I would be hard pressed to believe anyone fears Goreans but I would take exception to the generalization that you can't have a discussion with them without an ensuing flame war.

That's a people thing, not a Gor thing. Some who embrace Gor are happy to speak with anyone, some aren't. It's all about the individual. There are a few Goreans on the boards who are deserving of my respect and a few who are deserving of my contempt. Most fall somewhere in between and I just don't care about them one way or the other .. pretty much like this side. [8D]

Celeste



Aswad -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 8:16:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07

i thought about posting this in the Gorean section, but as i'm clearly not gorean i was afraid i'd offend someone. Can anyone explain to me the difference between BDSM and Gorean? And why do Gorean's find it so offensive to be connected to BDSM?


The difference is apples and trucks. Some Goreans eat apples. Some play golf. Some do BDSM. And the real reasons most take offense are probably clear after 4 pages. I guess the Christian Domestic Discipline crowd will probably take offense at someone positing that Christianity is connected to BDSM. No good reason, really, just frustration. I couldn't care less, as I'm a sick puppy by the standards of either community, and ain't looking for approval to begin with. Hell, there's at least three distinct subcommunities that have little in common, not counting the divide between Gorists and Normanists.

It makes about as much sense to ask what the difference between wife-beating and being from a southern state is.

When trying to explain that for the umpteenth time, people tire of it.

Health,
al-Aswad.

Edit: Bull explained it well, as usual.




Rule -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 8:37:43 PM)

I was more succinct.



Leatherist -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 8:55:52 PM)

They are upset becuase it's all an illusion.

But it's always someone eles's illusion/delusion.
 
Never thiers.



laurelgoat -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 9:10:09 PM)

So really, what it seems to come down to is a matter of conflicting definitions?

Goreans (from what I've been reading, both here and elsewhere) don't consider themselves participants in the BDSM scene by default. That is to say, by their definition, the master/slave relationship is completely exclusive from BDSM.

Some others believe that master/slave relationships are, by definition, a part of the overall BDSM subculture. Therefore, they see Goreans as, by definition, members of the BDSM community.

My question is, why do people get their panties in a bunch over this trivial crap? I don't consider myself as a member of the BDSM community despite my interest in d/s relationships. I don't feel they're necessarily related. But I don't get offended when someone groups them together. Why? Because, as I once read on a very wise coffee mug, everyone is entitled to their own wrong opinion.



Aswad -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 9:12:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I was more succinct.


He who dies with the most slaves, wins... [;)]

Health,
al-Aswad.



BitaTruble -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 9:29:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurelgoat

So really, what it seems to come down to is a matter of conflicting definitions?

Goreans (from what I've been reading, both here and elsewhere) don't consider themselves participants in the BDSM scene by default. That is to say, by their definition, the master/slave relationship is completely exclusive from BDSM.




Master/slave relationships can be completely exclusive of Gor as well. In other words, you don't need to have a slave to embrace Gor. This simple fact is why I've always wondered why there is a separate Gor forum here rather than a separate Gor forum on some philosophy board somewhere.

It still doesn't make sense to me, but I wasn't here for the great forum debates of '05. ::grins::

Celeste



SimplyMichael -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 10:29:04 PM)

Nobody fears the gorians in the gor forum, it would be like fearing the kids dressed as monsters on Halloween.  It is the den mother you have to watch out for!  They have a fairy god mother than protects them from people like me.

I have met quite a few gorians in real life and have never found one who I had any respect for.  I must admit that there are a few here who I would love to share a pint with, Bull is certainly one of those.

I don't have much issue with gor as a kink, I actually think all that stuff is hot as hell.  I mean I actually own real swords and such.  Where I have issue is the whole "we aren't "just" playing a role like those fake bdsm people" crap.  It is a bit much from people who can't handle using real pictures for the most part.  It is also a bit tiring to hear the whole "we have honor" line of crap as if they somehow have the market cornered.

Gor is like everything else, some are assholes, some are cool.



DaddyAndCarina -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 10:52:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalista07
i thought about posting this in the Gorean section, but as i'm clearly not gorean i was afraid i'd offend someone. Can anyone explain to me the difference between BDSM and Gorean? And why do Gorean's find it so offensive to be connected to BDSM?
Thanks,
Kali


I do not classify myself as Gorean.....  little to mouthy for it but I  do not classify myself as BDSM either. I believe D/s,M/s ,Gor are all the mental and emotional commitments, perhaps commitment isnt the right word. Mental and emotional bindings.  I take much  of what I learned while training with  a Gorean Master into my service today. None of them being the physical aspects of what I see as BDSM. But again  this is my view. In my view ... I am not a Gorean slave not because I  cannot serve in that  manner because my service to Master is still very  close to  that.
But there are times ... When I do get mouthy and it took one whipping for me to  know I wanted no more of that. Goreans I find ...  on a whole ... no nonsense type in the actions of those that  serve them. For me there is a tinge of brat,  and in my  eyes that  is not the least bit acceptable ( for some it maybe  the one I served NO WAY) I am a no limits slave to  Master for two  reasons one I  trust him completly two  he doesnt allow it. I  put trust first because I knew coming back would be on his terms and play  by his rules. I had to  trust him  before I could let him take me again.
The Gorean Master I was trained by wasnt high into the BDSM aspects other than he did like this rich  red glow from my  backside. but aside of that  very little. My Master plans to  bring me more into the BDSM aspects this time..
And again this is only my  thoughts and views... To  me  where BDSM is the priority .. Never mind that  thought will stay in my head I am not about to  be attacked when I am in such a good mood for sharing  my  thought on those four letters with  people  who  think I am wrong ... D/s M/s 7 Gor to me are mindset  where BDSM could  fit but alot of times doesnt ... In the past I have not liked being catagorised a BDSMer because I was slave . Slave is who I am ... BDSM  only the sprinkles on the cake not even the icing



kitttty -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/23/2008 10:54:08 PM)

What's their deal with chicks?

Most women on Gor are free women? Some can own slaves?

But then the whole Gor thing seems to imply a sexist universe where chickies are all meant to submit to the total authority of an owner.

My opinion of Gor depends on their general opinion of women.



featheredequine -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/24/2008 12:36:13 AM)

quote:

There are Living Goreans, these are the kind that are supposed to be participating in the Gorean Forum on this site, that's part of the TOS, The Gorean section is not about role playing.............

There are also Online Role Play Goreans, and they are certainly entitled to their leisure time activities, and the fact is this is the group that most other BDSM particpants have drawn their opinions from, these people tend to literally play out things in an online setting as they read them in the books...........


Actually, I'd like to present a slightly alternative opinion here. To further confuse the matter, there are, in my estimation, three types of online Goreans. There are lifestyle Goreans, who follow the philosophy of the books and to whom D/s M/s BDSM etc is not the center of their focus or what they've taken from the novels.  There are role play Goreans who enjoy telling stories to each other using the same sci-fi novels as a setting much as one might use World of Darkness, D&D, Pern, Wheel of Time, or any other fictional backdrop as a setting, and there are persona players who essentially role play online as if they themselves and not a fictional character were on Gor.

I'd say it's the latter that most here are familiar with as they tend to be the loudest of all three groups and the most easily lost somewhere between fantasy and reality. Admittedly, I've been a role play Gorean for the last 12 years. It can be incredibly entertaining and hot as hell not to mention an odd tool for personal growth, to communally tell stories with other people.  However, I've known several lifestyle Goreans, and certainly have run across many persona players in my time on Gor.

I've found most lifestyle Goreans to be quite sane and in touch with themselves and why they choose to follow something outlined in a badly written sci-fi series. And surprisingly very little of it has to do with slaves. Or the whole all women are slaves line. It has much more to do with personal integrity, finding truth as something outside of what society dictates, and being true to yourself. And most of them have been incredibly respectful to me and my choices. Perhaps because I am blunt and honest about what I get out of Gor without trying to force someone into my camp?

And really that's all I have to add. So much for being on topic.

~Miri~



StormsSlave -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/24/2008 1:53:32 AM)

Hey, all. 

Sure, we're all going to get flamed by the Goreans, but I will be as polite to them as I am anyone else.  I have read their forum, and found it interesting reading, actually.  However, I haven't heard other's thoughts on the matter.  If anyone can tell me what their basic principles are, I would be appreciative of hearing it from the non-Gorean viewpoint.

Also, if you can state your opinion without being offensive, which admittedly takes some oratory acrobatics, I'd really be appreciative in that.  I've heard theirs, and received it as openly as any person can, but would like some honest feedback from others.  Anyone brave enough to help?



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