RE: Gorean's??? (Full Version)

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idontknowdou -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 3:05:49 AM)

yeah it all depends on how the person looks takes the info on a book cause every book out there no matter what it is can be taken in many ways.



Paulsgirl -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 1:04:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulsgirl

i'm lost sorry.......i got a few degrees and the paperwork to show it BUT convergent norms like those you describe? if i need convergent norms of behaviour i may as well get a good book on vanilla......


It's not about anything normative. And for the subsegment I'm in, it's not about conformity, either. The idea, for me, is that I hold a set of values that I arrived at on my own, and those happen to be a lot closer to the ideas certain other people hold than to the ideas that the bulk of mainstream western society cleave to. Hence, I call myself Gorean. I never saw anything new or interesting in the books. I don't use them as a template for anything. They haven't played, and will not play, a part in my development. It's just a classification that applies to something I currently happen to be, much as a TV set fits the classification of "electronic appliance."

Health,
al-Aswad.



then what i said; convergent norms. You formed yours and then looked around for agreement, convergence and sanctification from others.




Paulsgirl -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 1:10:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


To me, it seems admirable to choose extinction over becoming the antithesis of what one holds dear.




With respect: none of us CHOOSE extinction. it's called death and it's the greatest leveller. If you are seriously trying to convince anyone of the infallibility of your own beliefs (upheld by the normative nature of them) then i apologise, but i am not buying into them.



Lumus -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 1:41:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulsgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


To me, it seems admirable to choose extinction over becoming the antithesis of what one holds dear.




With respect: none of us CHOOSE extinction. it's called death and it's the greatest leveller. If you are seriously trying to convince anyone of the infallibility of your own beliefs (upheld by the normative nature of them) then i apologise, but i am not buying into them.



Hmm.  I'm not a fan of Gor, but I do accept that there are situations under which a rational human being may choose death over an alternative that is antithetical to them.

You see, the alternative is to just do anything you're told whenever you're threatened; which ignores the concept of choice and presumes that life means more than any moral or personal belief you hold dear...

So death can be chosen; and you can call it rational or irrational, as you like.  If it did not exist then suicide would never occur; that may abrade your personal values, but it's true nonetheless.






Jeffff -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 1:49:08 PM)

 I could conceive of a situation where it would be better to die on your feet , than live on your knees.

Jeff



Aswad -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 2:34:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

But what use do high standards have,,,when they lead to selfdestruction.


In the end you will be dust and bones, and every accomplishment you have will be ground to nothing under the heel of time.

What else actually matters, if not how you live while you are still alive?

They died standing for something; a good death, to their mind.

Will you be able to say the same when your day comes?

Health,
al-Aswad.



Aswad -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 2:37:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulsgirl

then what i said; convergent norms. You formed yours and then looked around for agreement, convergence and sanctification from others.


Not really. I formed mine, then a friend commented "hey, that's Gorean, you know."

Whether others agree with, converge on, or sanction my beliefs, is irrelevant.

Health,
al-Aswad.



wisteriaV -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 2:40:12 PM)

Im expecting flaming from this and frankly, I don't care.
Gor is nothing more than a series of fantasy books that 99% of so called professed goreans play online  in a  fantasy realm. The other one percent will openly admitt that they dont "completely" embrace "all" aspects of gor. Why? Because its based on a fantasy.
Gorean slaves were taught, ( according to the books) that thrid person speech was used as a form of correction or learning tool. However, online you'll see most if not all so called kajira use third person speech. Why? Because they have modified it to suit their tastes ; otherwise they wouldn't use third person.
BDSM is the play aspect or the kink of an alternative lifechoice. M/s and D/s is the day to day living of the lifechoices. IF D/s was part of the BDSM configuration it would read BDDSSM, which it is not. Somewhere along the line BDSM got watered down to include the D/s aspects.
So go ahead and bring on the flaming. Think what you will of me, but being in this lifechoice for well over 15 years, I don't care..its only  the internet.



Lumus -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 2:41:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

But what use do high standards have,,,when they lead to selfdestruction.


In the end you will be dust and bones, and every accomplishment you have will be ground to nothing under the heel of time.

What else actually matters, if not how you live while you are still alive?

They died standing for something; a good death, to their mind.

Will you be able to say the same when your day comes?

Health,
al-Aswad.



I agree with the gist of this but would add a gentle warning:

Those who strive for immortality through self-achievement may only accomplish the title of 'tyrant'; those whose deeds enrich others, and not only themselves, earn the title of 'ruler'.

Which would you rather bear, Aswad?




Aswad -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 2:49:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulsgirl

With respect: none of us CHOOSE extinction. it's called death and it's the greatest leveller. If you are seriously trying to convince anyone of the infallibility of your own beliefs (upheld by the normative nature of them) then i apologise, but i am not buying into them.


Incorrect. People choose extinction individually, and in groups. The Cimbrians, while fighting the Romans, first fought to the last man, then until only a few women were alive, then those killed the children and finally committed suicide. They clearly didn't want to become Roman slaves, and rather chose death. They are hardly the only example in history, and the beliefs of the Samurai caste were probably not compatible with surrender, so it's not implausible to say that they chose extinction.

I'm not saying my beliefs are infallible, as you might've noticed from reading more closely.

Health,
al-Aswad.



xBullx -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 3:17:17 PM)

Howdy wisteria,

Why were you expecting to be flamed? Maybe you were just hoping? If you were a noted and distinguished humanitarian or philosopher perhaps you might be challanged, but I don't think anyone places much stock in your opinion, at least anyone that would want to flame you.

I am curious though, could you give me the link or provide the source of your statistics? I'd just like to see how that holds up against my experience.

Thanks,

Bull
quote:

ORIGINAL: wisteriaV

Im expecting flaming from this and frankly, I don't care.
Gor is nothing more than a series of fantasy books that 99% of so called professed goreans play online  in a  fantasy realm. The other one percent will openly admitt that they dont "completely" embrace "all" aspects of gor. Why? Because its based on a fantasy.
Gorean slaves were taught, ( according to the books) that thrid person speech was used as a form of correction or learning tool. However, online you'll see most if not all so called kajira use third person speech. Why? Because they have modified it to suit their tastes ; otherwise they wouldn't use third person.
BDSM is the play aspect or the kink of an alternative lifechoice. M/s and D/s is the day to day living of the lifechoices. IF D/s was part of the BDSM configuration it would read BDDSSM, which it is not. Somewhere along the line BDSM got watered down to include the D/s aspects.
So go ahead and bring on the flaming. Think what you will of me, but being in this lifechoice for well over 15 years, I don't care..its only  the internet.



Paulsgirl -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 3:30:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulsgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


To me, it seems admirable to choose extinction over becoming the antithesis of what one holds dear.




With respect: none of us CHOOSE extinction. it's called death and it's the greatest leveller. If you are seriously trying to convince anyone of the infallibility of your own beliefs (upheld by the normative nature of them) then i apologise, but i am not buying into them.



Hmm.  I'm not a fan of Gor, but I do accept that there are situations under which a rational human being may choose death over an alternative that is antithetical to them.

You see, the alternative is to just do anything you're told whenever you're threatened; which ignores the concept of choice and presumes that life means more than any moral or personal belief you hold dear...

So death can be chosen; and you can call it rational or irrational, as you like.  If it did not exist then suicide would never occur; that may abrade your personal values, but it's true nonetheless.





In reply Lumus:

i understand what you are saying entirely, and yet i said, with respect: none of us CHOOSE extinction. it's called death and it's the greatest leveller.
By extinction i understood species extinction which involves far more in evolutionary terms than mere personal choice. i feel there is a confusion in the original postulation between extinction and death. Of course i understand we can choose death and that one term for it is suicide and another term for it is assissted death or indeed asissted release or voluntary passing and so on. i am very much am in favour of death being at choice. But it is, in my opinion, in its original postulation more of the same attempts to impose a MINORITY influence.

I am free within my slavery and i did not have to, do not have to and never will rely upon a convesion experience or complex FICTION to tell me how to experience my slavery.




Lumus -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 3:42:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulsgirl

In reply Lumus:

i understand what you are saying entirely, and yet i said, with respect: none of us CHOOSE extinction. it's called death and it's the greatest leveller.
By extinction i understood species extinction which involves far more in evolutionary terms than mere personal choice. i feel there is a confusion in the original postulation between extinction and death. Of course i understand we can choose death and that one term for it is suicide and another term for it is assissted death or indeed asissted release or voluntary passing and so on. i am very much am in favour of death being at choice. But it is, in my opinion, in its original postulation more of the same attempts to impose a MINORITY influence.

I am free within my slavery and i did not have to, do not have to and never will rely upon a convesion experience or complex FICTION to tell me how to experience my slavery.



*nods* That would put a different spin on things, as we don't choose whether or not to be mortal. [;)]




LaTigresse -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 3:53:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's all about drinking from different cups blah blah blah blah. I'm sure there are many of us out here on these boards who don't want a club membership card [:D] .


I am not sure about many but I know there are more than a few of us.

I am just at the point where I really do not care what anyone else does or believes. They can be gorean, they can be female supremists, they can be piglatinists, for all I care. All that matters to me is, don't shove your latin pigs down my throat and try to make conform to your personal pork worship. Just mind your business, do your thing and let me do mine.

The only time I promise to be snarky is when you try and tell me I am somehow less of a human being for thinking your latin pig is silly and not kissing his arse.

Using latin pigs to avoid fighting over stupid, meaningless, shit.



RedMagic1 -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 4:06:58 PM)

I don't care about philosophical debates.  I can, however, report on my experiences with Gorean kajira on this site and Alt.  Without exception, they were online-only women, or asked things of me that I considered unethical -- such as demonstrating to their children that woman are inherently inferior to men.  I have Ignored several women who said they liked me, and almost all of them were either from Nigeria or Gor. 

From an intellectual point of view, perhaps Aswad and JustMe are correct.  However, as a practical matter, Michael's position that Goreans are more juvenile than BDSM practicioners is 100% consistent with my own experience.  Being a real-world kind of guy, practice matters more to me than theory.



Paulsgirl -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 4:08:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's all about drinking from different cups blah blah blah blah. I'm sure there are many of us out here on these boards who don't want a club membership card [:D] .


I am not sure about many but I know there are more than a few of us.

I am just at the point where I really do not care what anyone else does or believes. They can be gorean, they can be female supremists, they can be piglatinists, for all I care. All that matters to me is, don't shove your latin pigs down my throat and try to make conform to your personal pork worship. Just mind your business, do your thing and let me do mine.

The only time I promise to be snarky is when you try and tell me I am somehow less of a human being for thinking your latin pig is silly and not kissing his arse.

Using latin pigs to avoid fighting over stupid, meaningless, shit.



Dear laTigresse
i was really trying (as ever) to be polite but i should have said it like you did.....in fact i'd rather eat shit than carry a membership card.



kittinSol -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 4:21:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paulsgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's all about drinking from different cups blah blah blah blah. I'm sure there are many of us out here on these boards who don't want a club membership card [:D] .


I am not sure about many but I know there are more than a few of us.

I am just at the point where I really do not care what anyone else does or believes. They can be gorean, they can be female supremists, they can be piglatinists, for all I care. All that matters to me is, don't shove your latin pigs down my throat and try to make conform to your personal pork worship. Just mind your business, do your thing and let me do mine.

The only time I promise to be snarky is when you try and tell me I am somehow less of a human being for thinking your latin pig is silly and not kissing his arse.

Using latin pigs to avoid fighting over stupid, meaningless, shit.



Dear laTigresse
i was really trying (as ever) to be polite but i should have said it like you did.....in fact i'd rather eat shit than carry a membership card.



Right, that's it. Time for a club.



Aswad -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 4:34:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus

Which would you rather bear, Aswad?


I couldn't care less how my contemporaries view me. Why should I care how history views me?

What matters to me is whether I can look in the mirror and respect the man I see there.

And in perspective I have of time... eventually even history will be forgotten.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Alumbrado -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 5:35:58 PM)

quote:

(PG)  Dear laTigresse
i was really trying (as ever) to be polite but i should have said it like you did.....in fact i'd rather eat shit than carry a membership card.

Well... you could have just said 'I don't believe in being a joiner', but then you'd have the carpenter's union on your case.  Worse than the Goreans, sometimes...[;)]



AtlantisKing111 -> RE: Gorean's??? (2/25/2008 9:46:39 PM)

For me BDSM encompasses all relationships that include any aspect of BDSM.  So Goreans simply live a particular kind of BDSM, with their/our own commonly used rules and expectations that others may or may not follow.

As to why the acrimony between the two?  I think the main reason is that Goreans focus on hetero Male Dominance and Female submission almost exclusively while BDSM'ers are more inclusive, with an appreciation or at least tolerance of Dommes and submales (and any sexual orientation) in their midst.  You don't find gay men or lesbians in Gorean groups for instance due to the Gorean belief that Males and females need each other and are made for each other.  No such people are mentioned in the books either.  Dominant females and sub males are VERY rare in such groups due to the Gorean belief that Males are meant to Dominate and females meant to submit, but the books at least have some male slaves in them and a few Dominant females (though even those women are portrayed as secretly pleased to be Dominated by men and the slave men are portrayed as instinctively yearning to be Masters). 

Each side thinks the other one is not so good and, human nature being what it is, they feel their way is best and the other is idiotic. Sort of like the Republican and Democratic parties in America (or more appropriately, like Liberals and Conservatives).

As might be obvious (I hope) from this post, I enjoy both types of groups.

Atlantis



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