RE: Humbly asking for advice ...

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Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 8:45:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: urtoy For example, a dom requiring a severing of ties with family and long-term friends is asking the unreasonable, IMHO. Agreed. I was adamant with her about keeping them in her life, and I discuss this in my journal as well. quote: Similarly, there are those who expect a submissive to relocate at the drop of a hat with no consideration to issues of family relationships and financial security. Also agreed. As I dealt with this above, I'll not belabour it here. I've accepted that the relationship is history. This is more of a general question than one applicable to a single relationship. As I said in the OP, many women discussed these problems in "Fighting Submission" and as I suggested in the OP, there is reason to believe this problem is more widespread than might be expected. But whereas "Fighting Submission" focused on this question from the submissive's pov, this thread is focused on the advice they (and anyone else) would give doms and masters to help them to deal with this difficulty in a positive and constructive way. It might also help me and those of us who must deal with this problem from the dominant position if red/green flags were identified. e.g. "Have faith when this happens ...", "Watch out when this happens ..." That sort of thing. Understand that I was devoted to a successful relationship with this lady. From all that I know, despite her oft-proclaimed love and devotion, she fought submission and submission lost. Now she wears more armour than a knight of olde and hers is stitched to her skin. [&o] I am not asking about her. I am asking so that I can avoid this kind of pain in the future, if it is at all possible short of abandoning my quest altogether. So advice about what is going on, what I can do about it, and what to watch out for would certainly help me, and more than likely many others as well. And my thanks to everyone who has contributed. [:)]

CalifChick -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 9:06:24 AM)
First you were talking about submissives in general, then this one person, now we're back to submissives in general. So are your thoughts about submissives in general severely colored by your experience with this one person? Are you choosing women who are telling you what you want to hear? If you are choosing women over and over with the same problem, is there something flawed in your selection process? Are you asking the "right" questions? If you live your life honorably and transparently, then either she accepts it or she doesn't; I don't think there is anything else you can do to "help" her with her submission to YOU. Are your expectations clear, or are they fuzzy and muddled? If you have a regular schedule with her, for instance meeting for lunch every Monday and Wednesday, do you make that a priority or at least let her know in advance if you have to cancel and why? Are you consistent? If she starts to balk at something, do you just let it go, or do you take control of the situation? Do you "reward" her when she misbehaves? The red light/green light thing... you're really asking for a manual on dom/sub relationships, which you're never going to get, because each person is different. A red light for one would be a green light for another. Cali

came4U -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 9:19:17 AM)
quote: What advice do you give a master when he must deal with this woman, her struggle, and the uncertainty of her committment to the relationship? Not sure why you are asking submissives this question when it is Dominants who would/may know better on how to handle such a woman and the symptoms of her fight/flight reactions when it comes to being submissive.

Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 10:07:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick First you were talking about submissives in general, then this one person, now we're back to submissives in general. So are your thoughts about submissives in general severely colored by your experience with this one person? No, CC, we never left the question of submissives in general. I have talked of my most recent relationship as an example because it applies, it was one of the most extreme reactions I've witnessed, and the memories are still quite vivid. It certainly illustrates the problems I've faced with others (usually to a much lesser degree and thus more manageable). quote: Are you choosing women who are telling you what you want to hear? Who doesn't? All I want from any woman is the truth as she sees it. If she is sincere, and saying things to me and about me and about herself which I find appealing (and this translates into corresponding and appropriate behaviour, not just words), I'm going to choose her. Who wouldn't? quote: If you are choosing women over and over with the same problem, is there something flawed in your selection process? The "same problem" is abuse. They each have claimed to have been abused at some point in their life, either as a child, or in a relationship, or both. Perhaps I have a skewed view of things but I've been convinced by my dating experience that nearly all women have been abused at some point. Let me make very clear I am in no way insulting them or attacking them in saying that. I see it as a fundamental flaw in our society that so many women are forced to struggle with trust because of the selfishness of men. As I am not one of those men, I see myself with a responsibility to give the one I love a better standard of manhood than she's known. As good as I know how to be. So the choices are limited to those who have coped better with the abuse as opposed to those who have not. And as all are trying to cope to some degree, trying to restore a degree of normality to their behaviour, only those who are seriously having difficulties become obvious during discussions. Most of them claim that what has been lacking is a good man whom they can trust. That is why they find me appealing. For you see, I do not go looking for them, they find me. Every single relationship (except the first, we met in college) was the result of a woman answering my ad, not me answering hers. But not every woman who answers my ad gets that far, lack of compatibility being the main reason. Since August, I'm sure I've been approached by less than 200 ladies, of which I've had serious discussions with less than 20 ladies, of which I have met three. None of those were the result of me making initial contact. quote: Are you asking the "right" questions? Always arguable. What are the "right" questions? I want to know everything there is to know about her, starting with the things she feels most important to share with me, as she grows comfortable enough to share them. I'm quite happy to take it at her own pace, and I always have questions about what she believes, what she thinks, how she feels, her dreams and aspirations, her past ... If she's the one for me I want to squirrel myself away in her brain and her heart and learn all there is to know about her. As I would hope she would want to do with me. That's why my yahoo nic is theinterview. We each 'interview' the other to get to know each other better. No pressure, just the freedom to talk about anything, sincerity and honesty expected and assured. That usually leads to a polite exchange and then we move on. Sometimes it leads to much more. In one case I believed it had reached a point that went beyond dating. That's the lady I've mentioned in this thread. quote: If you live your life honorably and transparently, then either she accepts it or she doesn't; I don't think there is anything else you can do to "help" her with her submission to YOU. I agree. That's how I've handled it every time it happens. But then I only had my own ethics and intuition to guide me. Now I have this forum and this thread and the hopes that so many others who just discussed "Fighting Submission" might have some insights I don't. quote: Are your expectations clear, or are they fuzzy and muddled? I have only two expectations: She will give herself to me as her love and trust dictates. If she does not give, her love and/or her trust is insufficient to inspire her to do so. I expect her to be truthful with me, always. quote: If you have a regular schedule with her, for instance meeting for lunch every Monday and Wednesday, do you make that a priority or at least let her know in advance if you have to cancel and why? Yes. quote: Are you consistent? If she starts to balk at something, do you just let it go, or do you take control of the situation? Do you "reward" her when she misbehaves? You are talking of immature behaviour. I am an adult, and my relationships are with adults. I believe adults who love one another have every reason to initiate a discussion about any problem and resolve it in a constructive and loving manner. quote: The red light/green light thing... you're really asking for a manual on dom/sub relationships, which you're never going to get, because each person is different. A red light for one would be a green light for another. What I am asking for is each person's opinion, based on their own experience where possible, as to what constituted a green light, and what constituted a red flag. Without seeing the results, it is hard to say if and where there might be convergences. And while a manual might come in handy from time to time, I'm really only focusing on this question of fighting submission, and what role a master can play, is expected to play, whichever way you might want to put it.

CalifChick -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 10:24:23 AM)
My questions were more of the rhetorical nature for you to think on, rather than justify what you've been doing all along. Obviously something in that isn't working. You're still seeing the problem as THEM and how you can help THEM with THEIR problem. I was trying to go in the direction that the problem just might be with YOU and/or your perception of them, and/or your selection process. For instance, I said "choosing women with the same problem", I didn't mean abuse or a problem common in their lives. The problem I was referring to was their issues with submission to YOU. If you are consistently choosing women who have a problem with submission to YOU, then you need to examine the common denominator (which would be YOU). While so many of us have been abused (me included), I don't think you can call that a relevant common factor any more than you can say that none of us are virgins is a common factor (I think I can say with some certainty that your target audience does not include virgins; if it does, that's a whole 'nother can of worms). Regarding choosing someone who tells you what you want to hear, you missed my point. My point was, do you have the ability to discern when someone is telling you what you WANT to hear, versus telling you what is REALLY true. Another rhetorical question. I don't fight my submission to my Dom. I fought submission to someone I was getting to know before him, and that, among other things, told me that we were not a good fit, no matter how we seemed to mesh at the beginning. That certainly is not the way everyone goes thru it, I'm just saying that on the other thread the focus was difficulty with submission, not success with it. Cali

Aileen1968 -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 10:41:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed The "same problem" is abuse. They each have claimed to have been abused at some point in their life, either as a child, or in a relationship, or both. Perhaps I have a skewed view of things but I've been convinced by my dating experience that nearly all women have been abused at some point. Let me make very clear I am in no way insulting them or attacking them in saying that. I see it as a fundamental flaw in our society that so many women are forced to struggle with trust because of the selfishness of men. As I am not one of those men, I see myself with a responsibility to give the one I love a better standard of manhood than she's known. As good as I know how to be. So the choices are limited to those who have coped better with the abuse as opposed to those who have not. And as all are trying to cope to some degree, trying to restore a degree of normality to their behaviour, only those who are seriously having difficulties become obvious during discussions. Most of them claim that what has been lacking is a good man whom they can trust. That is why they find me appealing. For you see, I do not go looking for them, they find me. Every single relationship (except the first, we met in college) was the result of a woman answering my ad, not me answering hers. But not every woman who answers my ad gets that far, lack of compatibility being the main reason. Since August, I'm sure I've been approached by less than 200 ladies, of which I've had serious discussions with less than 20 ladies, of which I have met three. None of those were the result of me making initial contact. I think you are incredibly wrong on the comment I have bolded. I think you make your profile appealing to abused women and then you assume because since that is what you attract then that is what is out there. You've admitted in the past that you like to help. That's all well and good , but now here you are complaining that your "help" hasn't helped and the relationship has deteriorated. If you go searching for a blue shirt, find a blue shirt and wear it then don't complain in the future that all you have is a blue shirt. You got what you asked for. Next time...try searching for someone that doesn't need fixing and see what you get and how it works out.

came4U -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 11:01:41 AM)
I agree with Aileen. to extend... It is possible that you attract the formerly abused and that these women have the frame of mind that although they might seek someone to 'save them' some of the formerly abused seek abuse in future relationships...we have all seen this occur. Then, we have a broken spirited woman, who has not healed from previous partners who initially finds your 'savior-complex' truly a dream come true. Soonafter, the fluff of alll the romantic kink that you delve into becomes (naturally) a turn off. You kept the same attitude (nurturing, caring, loving and all of the oo la la isn't life wonderful) and yet she digresses to previous relationships that were abusive yet to her safe and sane because it is all she knows. As mentioned previously...why not find someone who has healed (by therapy or time, whathaveyou) and avoid those that seem to become disappointed in submitting to your romantic passivity.

Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 11:34:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick My questions were more of the rhetorical nature for you to think on, rather than justify what you've been doing all along. Obviously something in that isn't working. You're still seeing the problem as THEM and how you can help THEM with THEIR problem. I was trying to go in the direction that the problem just might be with YOU and/or your perception of them, and/or your selection process. I understood that. I'm sure you didn't mean for me to leave you with the belief that direction was correct if it is not. quote: For instance, I said "choosing women with the same problem", I didn't mean abuse or a problem common in their lives. The problem I was referring to was their issues with submission to YOU. If you are consistently choosing women who have a problem with submission to YOU, then you need to examine the common denominator (which would be YOU). While so many of us have been abused (me included), I don't think you can call that a relevant common factor any more than you can say that none of us are virgins is a common factor (I think I can say with some certainty that your target audience does not include virgins; if it does, that's a whole 'nother can of worms). I must say I'm surprised you would compare abuse with virginity. Abuse has a huge factor in one's ability to trust others, especially those who are romantically involved. I'm sure I needn't discuss the consequences to rape victims or those who are involved with them. Loss of virginity, unless the result of abuse, is not in the same category. Just because an experience like abuse is a common factor does not in any way mitigate the consequences for each individual. In talking with those who were abused I am mindful that not all have recovered to the same degree. Each is at her own point in the process of recovery. So to dismiss it out-of-hand seems foolish to me. quote: Regarding choosing someone who tells you what you want to hear, you missed my point. My point was, do you have the ability to discern when someone is telling you what you WANT to hear, versus telling you what is REALLY true. Another rhetorical question. I have the ability to detect insincerity, and I challenge a person whenever I hear it for it is tantamount to deceit, which I do not tolerate. If she believes what she says is true, and it isn't patently delusional to believe what she believes, how could I know the difference? quote: I don't fight my submission to my Dom. I fought submission to someone I was getting to know before him, and that, among other things, told me that we were not a good fit, no matter how we seemed to mesh at the beginning. That certainly is not the way everyone goes thru it, I'm just saying that on the other thread the focus was difficulty with submission, not success with it. I realize that. But those of us who go through it with women like the FS thread have feelings too. We're not uninvolved and we do have a good reason for wanting to contribute something constructive: we are in love, trying to build a future with the one we've chosen to love. At least I do. I'm not speaking of the defensive reaction resulting from someone trying to bully a woman. While it is a valuable topic, I think the 'Dom-as-Bully' explanation is overused. There are good doms and masters out here, and sad but true there are some good subs if not for the crippling consequences resulting from their trust issues, issues that the current man in their life had nothing to do with. To accuse every man she comes into contact with of having contributed to the abuse is to totally ignore how her own defensive behaviour can create a cycle where she cannot escape her fear of abuse ... to the point where she is no longer able to love or permit herself to be loved. If her fear causes her to keep everyone at a certain distance, how can she love or be loved? I think that fear generates internal processes that can only be controlled by the one who is fearful. And as I read the FS thread, it seems to me each woman describing her struggle against submission described something that might best be called fear. Now what does the man do when he is not a threat to her, loves her dearly, is trying to be constructive and helpful as she goes through this? When her behaviour is not based on anything he's done, because he's done nothing wrong, what does he do? Surely those who responded to the FS thread who have relationships did not develop those relationships with men who abused them. Thus by their testimony such men exist and face these difficulties. I know for myself that includes me.

came4U -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 11:42:43 AM)
quote: Now what does the man do when he is not a threat to her, loves her dearly, is trying to be constructive and helpful as she goes through this? When her behaviour is not based on anything he's done, because he's done nothing wrong, what does he do? yet another moral reason why psychologists/psychiatrists do not have a relationship outside the office with a patient. He would be lacking good benefiting judgements in one area of a girl's life, if not both.

CalifChick -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 11:43:44 AM)
Bob, it has become abundantly clear to me that you and I cannot communicate, because you still, by your responses, are not understanding what I am saying. I cannot continue to clarify because each new clarification brings a new misunderstanding. So therefore it is either you or me. I will accept that I am the problem with the communication between us. I wish you well in your search. Cali

Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 11:46:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen1968 quote: ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed The "same problem" is abuse. They each have claimed to have been abused at some point in their life, either as a child, or in a relationship, or both. Perhaps I have a skewed view of things but I've been convinced by my dating experience that nearly all women have been abused at some point. Let me make very clear I am in no way insulting them or attacking them in saying that. I see it as a fundamental flaw in our society that so many women are forced to struggle with trust because of the selfishness of men. As I am not one of those men, I see myself with a responsibility to give the one I love a better standard of manhood than she's known. As good as I know how to be. So the choices are limited to those who have coped better with the abuse as opposed to those who have not. And as all are trying to cope to some degree, trying to restore a degree of normality to their behaviour, only those who are seriously having difficulties become obvious during discussions. Most of them claim that what has been lacking is a good man whom they can trust. That is why they find me appealing. For you see, I do not go looking for them, they find me. Every single relationship (except the first, we met in college) was the result of a woman answering my ad, not me answering hers. But not every woman who answers my ad gets that far, lack of compatibility being the main reason. Since August, I'm sure I've been approached by less than 200 ladies, of which I've had serious discussions with less than 20 ladies, of which I have met three. None of those were the result of me making initial contact. I think you are incredibly wrong on the comment I have bolded. I think you make your profile appealing to abused women and then you assume because since that is what you attract then that is what is out there. I speak of love and trust and you believe I am singling out abuse victims? That's an interesting leap. Now tell me, Aileen, are you suggesting abuse victims should not respond to profiles they find appealing? Or are you suggesting that as soon as a man discovers he is talking to an abuse victim he should cut her off and move on? For I have no control over who approaches me. Certainly my ad is written to present myself and my quest to those interested in reading my profile. It has been done with integrity and sincerity. But beyond whatever influennce that might produce, it is certainly up to the individual reader to make her choice as she sees fit. And I don't exactly see how you can be so sure the bolded text is wrong. Rape statistics, child abuse statistics, work harassment statistics for the past 30 years or more (bearing in mind all numbers are under-reported) creates a staggering number of women who have been abused.

came4U -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 11:54:11 AM)
quote: Perhaps I have a skewed view of things but I've been convinced by my dating experience that nearly all women have been abused at some point. you did say that you dated mostly abused women..did you not?? besides, if your method of 'interviewing' potentials was working for you, you would know before you met these women. quote: Or are you suggesting that as soon as a man discovers he is talking to an abuse victim he should cut her off and move on? make up your mind. Do you want the broken or will you continue to complain that they chose you and you just couldn't refuse. You made your bed.....

Aileen1968 -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 11:55:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen1968 quote: ORIGINAL: Loveisallyouneed The "same problem" is abuse. They each have claimed to have been abused at some point in their life, either as a child, or in a relationship, or both. Perhaps I have a skewed view of things but I've been convinced by my dating experience that nearly all women have been abused at some point. Let me make very clear I am in no way insulting them or attacking them in saying that. I see it as a fundamental flaw in our society that so many women are forced to struggle with trust because of the selfishness of men. As I am not one of those men, I see myself with a responsibility to give the one I love a better standard of manhood than she's known. As good as I know how to be. So the choices are limited to those who have coped better with the abuse as opposed to those who have not. And as all are trying to cope to some degree, trying to restore a degree of normality to their behaviour, only those who are seriously having difficulties become obvious during discussions. Most of them claim that what has been lacking is a good man whom they can trust. That is why they find me appealing. For you see, I do not go looking for them, they find me. Every single relationship (except the first, we met in college) was the result of a woman answering my ad, not me answering hers. But not every woman who answers my ad gets that far, lack of compatibility being the main reason. Since August, I'm sure I've been approached by less than 200 ladies, of which I've had serious discussions with less than 20 ladies, of which I have met three. None of those were the result of me making initial contact. I think you are incredibly wrong on the comment I have bolded. I think you make your profile appealing to abused women and then you assume because since that is what you attract then that is what is out there. I speak of love and trust and you believe I am singling out abuse victims? That's an interesting leap. Now tell me, Aileen, are you suggesting abuse victims should not respond to profiles they find appealing? Or are you suggesting that as soon as a man discovers he is talking to an abuse victim he should cut her off and move on? For I have no control over who approaches me. Certainly my ad is written to present myself and my quest to those interested in reading my profile. It has been done with integrity and sincerity. But beyond whatever influennce that might produce, it is certainly up to the individual reader to make her choice as she sees fit. And I don't exactly see how you can be so sure the bolded text is wrong. Rape statistics, child abuse statistics, work harassment statistics for the past 30 years or more (bearing in mind all numbers are under-reported) creates a staggering number of women who have been abused. Ummm actually it appears that you are the one making all of the leaps. How you got from what I said to what you said is completely beyond me. I'm gonna have to agree and jump on the Cali bandwagon and bow out of your dysfunction. It seems as if it's the same old go around whether you post as this name or as bobkgin. Not much ever changes. You skew things and misinterpret. Your next name should be thewall. That's what it's like talking to. I think your last livein made a very wise choice to leave. I'd love to hear her side. It would be enlightening. Good luck with your life.

lusciouslips19 -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 12:00:55 PM)
I would agree that all women have been abused in some way. I am not suggesting that all have been abused by their fathers or husbands or have been raped. However, in this Male Dominated society and due to what the Op called the selfishness of men or their lack of education or their notions of what being a Man is, I would say ALL women have been abused. The first time I was ever made to feel like a peice of meat and prey was probably around the age of 11 or 12. I had catcalls and wistles at me through windows of men in cars and trucks. the first time I had unwelcomed advances via grabbing of my breasts or ass was at the age of 12 or 13. In high school, night clubs and places of work I have been pinched and grabbed from behind where I did not even see who it was. I have been sexually harassed by coworkers and bosses and men in general who feel entitled to take what they want or grab as to intimidate pou for their own sense of power. You may find these instances minor, but they are forms of subtle control and intimidation and yes, abuse aflicted on women in general for no other reason then to put them in their place.

SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 12:02:17 PM)
Just grrr.

lusciouslips19 -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 12:21:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick Bob, it has become abundantly clear to me that you and I cannot communicate, because you still, by your responses, are not understanding what I am saying. I cannot continue to clarify because each new clarification brings a new misunderstanding. So therefore it is either you or me. I will accept that I am the problem with the communication between us. I wish you well in your search. Cali And so there it is again. The Op is able to fortify and affirm his belief that submissives just dont like to submit to him. There is not anything he could have done to try to understand the submissive or to see her POV. Its her, not him that needs help. He would like to give and its not his fault that he cant get a submissive to trust him enough to open up or submit. Hes done all he can.

Missokyst -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 12:34:19 PM)
I don't get the reasons for fighting submission. You either are submissive or you are not. Some one either inspires it from you, or they don't. I do see a lot of people who get into this for the fantasy of being overwhelmed by desire and love. I see that as the bodice ripper mentality of romance and fantasy. The only thing that destoys that is reality. Picking up his socks from under the sofa cushions, getting your head shoved under the blankets to give a BJ at 4 am. Fixing him dinner after you have worked all day and so has he. Seeing that your idea of passion becomes satisfying his passion instead. Reality will wear down the fantasy and the idea of ds will disappear. If you have nilla left you are lucky. But if someone is struggling so hard against submitting, or fighting hard to BE the submissive/slave you thought yourself to be, then maybe it is just the fantasy that appeals. If it makes you happy, it shouldn't be that hard. I submit because that is who I am with men who inspire it from me. It sure has not happened with some men who are dominant. That has nothing to do with that man, or me, but the WE, together. Sometimes the combination of ingredients is not meant to go together. Kyst

Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 12:42:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: came4U quote: Perhaps I have a skewed view of things but I've been convinced by my dating experience that nearly all women have been abused at some point. you did say that you dated mostly abused women..did you not?? besides, if your method of 'interviewing' potentials was working for you, you would know before you met these women. You're suggesting I ask women if they've been abused? Maybe I'm showing my age but that was always a matter considered private and not to be probed unless the lady volunteers the information and indicates she'd like to talk about it. Are you saying times have changed and everyone should be asking all women if they've been abused? What if they lie? quote: Or are you suggesting that as soon as a man discovers he is talking to an abuse victim he should cut her off and move on? I await your answers.

Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 12:59:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19 And so there it is again. The Op is able to fortify and affirm his belief that submissives just dont like to submit to him. There is not anything he could have done to try to understand the submissive or to see her POV. Its her, not him that needs help. He would like to give and its not his fault that he cant get a submissive to trust him enough to open up or submit. Hes done all he can. Were that true I'd not have started this thread nor spent two months trying to figure out how two people who love one another can be together. It is interesting that so many find it so easy to discuss abuse when it is perpetrated by a dom, but to talk about abuse perpetrated by a submissive is another matter altogether. The blinders have been pulled and it is not hard for me to guess why.

Loveisallyouneed -> RE: Humbly asking for advice ... (2/24/2008 1:03:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst But if someone is struggling so hard against submitting, or fighting hard to BE the submissive/slave you thought yourself to be, then maybe it is just the fantasy that appeals. If it makes you happy, it shouldn't be that hard. Try telling them you're going to move on because they're obviously not ready for this life. It breaks their heart to fail. Eventually it comes to this, but not before you give them every chance you can to succeed. Why? Because that is what they say they want. And unless your a mind-reader, it can be very difficult to say they are wrong ahead of time. (on edit: keep in mind this is a loving relationship we're speaking of, not a casual fling. In this relationship, love, trust, committment, faith are all integral parts, they all play a part in deciding when to stay and when to quit).

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