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This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol puni... - 2/26/2008 3:22:23 AM

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quote:

Two teenagers hid overnight in a house and spent more than six hours torturing a disabled woman after her mother left in the morning, authorities said.

Butler County Sheriff Richard Jones said the teenage boy and girl tied up the 18-year-old woman, clubbed her, kicked her, shaved her head and soaked her with water before making her walk barefoot outside in the snow.

They also ignored pleas from the woman, who had undergone brain surgery, not to hit her in the head, investigators said.

"This is one of the worst crimes I've ever seen," Jones said Monday. "They are sick animals, apparently just doing this for kicks and no other reason."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080226/ap_on_re_us/disabled_woman_beaten

And by "rethink", I mean that I don't support the death penalty...........

< Message edited by Level -- 2/26/2008 3:23:43 AM >

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 3:34:58 AM

Aswad

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Yet another good reason to have surveillance in your home. Surveillance that you control, that is.

Show the courts 6 hours of exactly what they were doing, and who they were ...

... I'd say that's likely to make it a pretty open-and-shut case.

Edit: It'd make a pretty good insanity plea, too.

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< Message edited by Aswad -- 2/26/2008 3:36:18 AM >

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 3:36:42 AM

lazarus1983

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Does Cincinnatti have the death penalty? Even if it does, it's doubtful that these teens will get what they so rightfully deserve, because of their age. I think the Supreme Court set that either 17 or 18 is the limit, and no one under.

Besides, they'll just claim some kind of mental defection. And for some strange reason, that's an actual valid defense.

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 3:41:22 AM

slaveboyforyou

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Yeah, this is the first story I see when I wake up this morning for work. It makes me wonder if the world is about to come to an end. Things like this seem to happen all the time, and it barely surprises us anymore. Both of these little assholes should be taken into town square and horse whipped about 250 times. Then they should be locked in stocks for two weeks, with signs put up declaring their crimes in unflattering tones. Prison won't do a damn thing but turn these two into better criminals. I don't think they will do more than 5 years for this.

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 4:04:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Yet another good reason to have surveillance in your home. Surveillance that you control, that is.

Show the courts 6 hours of exactly what they were doing, and who they were ...

... I'd say that's likely to make it a pretty open-and-shut case.

Edit: It'd make a pretty good insanity plea, too.

Health,
al-Aswad.

They may have mental problems, but I have to think, it's just viciousness on their part.....and youthful stupidity.

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 4:05:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

Does Cincinnatti have the death penalty? Even if it does, it's doubtful that these teens will get what they so rightfully deserve, because of their age. I think the Supreme Court set that either 17 or 18 is the limit, and no one under.

Besides, they'll just claim some kind of mental defection. And for some strange reason, that's an actual valid defense.

Good points about them being too young to be put to death; I was so angry at reading it, that never crossed my mind.

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 4:07:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Yeah, this is the first story I see when I wake up this morning for work. It makes me wonder if the world is about to come to an end. Things like this seem to happen all the time, and it barely surprises us anymore. Both of these little assholes should be taken into town square and horse whipped about 250 times. Then they should be locked in stocks for two weeks, with signs put up declaring their crimes in unflattering tones. Prison won't do a damn thing but turn these two into better criminals. I don't think they will do more than 5 years for this.

Public punishment sounds good to me, for them.

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 4:09:40 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

Even if it does, it's doubtful that these teens will get what they so rightfully deserve, because of their age.

As I said elsewhere, that argument would sound better if we stopped teaching kids that two wrongs don't make a right.

Anyway, I don't really think any of us are qualified to say what anyone actually deserves.

It suffices to say what we're going to do, as the stronger party.

quote:

Besides, they'll just claim some kind of mental defection. And for some strange reason, that's an actual valid defense.

It's a fair enough defense. Criminal accountability depends on being your own person, making your own choices. Of course, the obvious extension of that is that as long as the defense is valid, the flip side is that they should be wards of the state.

Up here, that sort of thing will get you locked up in a maximum security ward at a psychiatric hospital.

While it's theoretically possible for them to become decent people and again capable of living in society (at which point they should, as they would not be the same people anymore), it seems a lot more likely that this is a personality disorder.

Those aren't considered treatable, nor are they a valid defense.

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P.S.: A good occasion to lament the outcome of the Nuremberg trials with regard to research on humans, no?

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 4:11:46 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

They may have mental problems, but I have to think, it's just viciousness on their part.....and youthful stupidity.

I meant to say that showing the tape to a jury would probably make an insanity plea fly if the parents took the law into their own hands in this case. I don't think anyone (except the kids parents, of course) would lament the loss of these... ahem... "fine" young specimens.

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 4:29:29 AM

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Reactionary Conservatism built on emotionally charged cases such as these, is not fit to determine law.

As for the world about to end, once upon a time Catholics and Protestants stretched one another 'til their arms and legs were ripped from their sockets.

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 4:38:06 AM

kittinSol

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Senseless violence such as this has been going on since the dawn of humanity. It's horrible, but it's nothing new - I don't know if this is a consolation.

These two adolescents will be studied at length by psychiatrists, and it wouldn't surprise me if a diagnosis of psychopathy came back to the courts. "Barbarism begins at home."

As for the death penalty... what NorthernGent said.

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 4:56:03 AM

seeksfemslave

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I simply do not understand why many, if not most, are prepared to accept that people who behave like this are " not themselves" or are defective in some way.
Defects should apply to the values that the perpetrators of such acts hold not those held by those who do not commit such acts.
ie the argument I couldnt do such depraved things therefore those that do are mentally ill is a fallacy IMO.
When sentencing is considered after guilty or not guilty the mental state should be assessed by finding out how such people conduct their lives in general, whether they tried to avoid capture, things like that.
Drug consumption of any kind is absolutely no excuse IMO. That is the time when the real "inner them" emerges.

All humans are not good.!!!!
Those that haven't learned that yet, please concentrate.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/26/2008 4:59:17 AM >

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 5:06:10 AM

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There's violence against people who could defend themselves or flee; people who have use of both arms and legs, who can see, speak and know whats going on and can in theory do something about the situation.

And then there's this sort of thing, where cowardly sadists pick out a victim incapable of defending themselves, and torture them for the enjoyment of doing so. Could be an instance like this one with a disabled person, could be the "happy slapping" thing where its six against one, and the ability of the one to defend themselves is overcome by weight of numbers.

The difference between the two instances is obvious enough not to need spelling out. And the reaction to the two should obviously be different - the former is assault of whatever variety, the second is far more serious a crime of the same magnitude as attempted murder and rape.

And for all the claims that this is nothing new, I'm afraid I would differ. Yes there's always been violence, yes there's been torture and bullying throughout human history - but this is new in our age in that there is no motive whatever for it in many of these cases except to enjoy a perverse form of entertainment. And this is torture, whether or not it be called by that name - and the sole purpose of torture is torture itself.

My view is that at least some of the root cause is to be found in the disempowerment these offenders feel, possibly accompanied by having been subjected to similar offences themselves by others. The offence is therefore a form of taking back control and transferring the demons to another. Apparently it is said that the best torturers are those who have been tortured.

Given that they are then, psychologically damaged in this way, they must remain a danger to society for a long time - possibly their whole lives. The purpose of incarceration being to protect the public from such dangerous individuals, they must be imprisoned until such time as they are of no further danger. Given that this is, as seems to be the case with child abuse, is a chain which transfers down the generations of the abused becoming abusers, such long term incarceration of any committing such offences should also operate to help to break that chain.

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 5:15:56 AM

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I agree with most of your post, LadyEllen - however, insane, sadistic violence is nothing new. Whatever the motives of the perpetrators, the violence acts as a catharsis for sadistic impulses, and this has always existed.

First thing that springs to mind is the Inquisition. But there's a plethora of other examples, too.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 2/26/2008 5:52:30 AM >

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 5:30:17 AM

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This kind of act does seem to be escalating, Lady Ellen, and I think there is no one answer as to why, but an amalgamation of several factors, such as the diminished capacity of so many people now who are disaffected/detached from their emotions, I can't help but see a correlation between this and children raised by their PC/Computer Console (as I've said before, take a look at the erosion of the Japanese culture, steeped in tradition and respect, yet that is rarely the case these days), as opposed to a positive parental influence providing those care needs.

While some psychologists will argue that a person's character is 'set' by the time they reach their teens, this isn't necessarily the case, as indicated by cases highlighted by Mary Bell - the infamous child killer who was a child herself. Then there are the killers of Jamie Bulger, again children themselves... In both cases, those involved spent years in psychotherapy and have been rehabilitated.

It starts with childish curiosity, pulling the wings of a fly, or legs off of a spider, no comprehension of the creature's suffering... further curiosity in seeing a small mammal dying, again a fascination but no real emotional understanding. Allow that curiosity to develop, unchecked... And you'll see such behaviours exhibited in the likes of Jeffrey Dahmer, etc... The later a person is left, unchecked, the more difficult it becomes to alter the course of pathology.

Hopefully, those teens won't be left untreated, and they'll receive the psychotherapy needed before any kind of rehabilitation is attempted.

As for capital punishment, by the OP's terms the above children should have been put to death upon coming of age... yet they were able to successfully be rehabilated. How can we possibly expect to lead by example if we're advocating the use of capital punishment?

< Message edited by MissMorrigan -- 2/26/2008 5:38:12 AM >

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 5:34:09 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

And for all the claims that this is nothing new, I'm afraid I would differ. Yes there's always been violence, yes there's been torture and bullying throughout human history - but this is new in our age in that there is no motive whatever for it in many of these cases except to enjoy a perverse form of entertainment. And this is torture, whether or not it be called by that name - and the sole purpose of torture is torture itself.

Ellen, there seems to be a recurring theme running through your posts - the current crop of miscreants, social misfits, odd balls and lunatics are a step up from previous generations.

You're forgetting that torture for entertainments sake was conducted through organised events in England. Take bear baiting as an example, crowds went to see bulls and bears ripped apart by dogs - bears that managed to ward off the dogs were flogged by men.

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 5:35:47 AM

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But the Inquisition had a mission- to identify thought crime. Torture down the ages has had similar missions. Whilst we could say that those actually conducting the torture throughout the ages were of the same ilk as these modern cases, it would be wholly wrong to put the instances in the same bracket.

The case which Level brought up is similar to one we had here a year or so back, where young females took a mentally disabled woman and locked her in a room and tortured her with cigarettes, cut their names into her back and so on. There was no mission to be accomplished with this - it was merely entertainment for them, to torture a helpless victim. No mission to it.

Of course, we know now that torture is simply torture, but up until the recent past it was thought useful as a means of interrogation; we stopped using torture because it was found to be less than effective as a means - were this not the case then every police station would have its own chamber and human rights be damned. If we could get safe convictions based on torture then we would.

This is the difference as I see it - these modern cases are not about identifying thought crime, not about interrogation to find out who the other treasonous plotters are etc. They are about the enjoyment of making someone suffer - and that could be an animal too, and nothing more.

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 5:44:18 AM

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And NG, there seems to be a recurrent theme in your posts, which amounts to "its nothing to worry about, its gone on all the time" - which is a strange theme I find, from one who at the same time finds the idea of tradition to be a negative influence, and who claims that at one and the same time "its always been this bad" and "things were worse in the old days".

Do you advocate a return to traditional public spectacle bloodsports such as bear baiting to allow for the vicarious release of sadistic impulses so that such instances as we find in the OP are reduced?

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 5:46:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

But the Inquisition had a mission- to identify thought crime. Torture down the ages has had similar missions. Whilst we could say that those actually conducting the torture throughout the ages were of the same ilk as these modern cases, it would be wholly wrong to put the instances in the same bracket.

Why? I put it in exactly the same bracket. The first for inflicting pain on another. The motives are indifferent: political treason, retribution, justice or pleasure. If anything, legalised torture is even more heinous: it doesn't even have the excuse of insanity.

quote:

They are about the enjoyment of making someone suffer - and that could be an animal too, and nothing more.

That's exactly what it's about.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 2/26/2008 6:16:26 AM >

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 5:50:09 AM

NorthernGent

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General reply regarding the OP:

The death penalty seems to be a popular topic on these forums (punishment v rehabilitation); rehabilitation is the mark of a civilised society, in my book.

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