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ORIGINAL: Smith117

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ORIGINAL: Jeffff

His answer is he will never find himself in the position to be wrongly accused and convicted of a capitol crime. that lead to Kittens delusional optimistic post. I agree with Kitten

Jeff

Ahhh another who can't understand well thought-out replies. My previous reply was for you as well then.

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ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Smith, I certainly wouldn't want anyone apologising for their views. What I am trying to do is understand why you advocate putting to death children (let's face it, they are) as a preferable method of 'dealing' with someone who has grown up with a distinct lack of education, social advantages, etc... who then went on to commit a murder. I noticed that while you continue to put forth your views, you sidestepped answering directly on the cases of those I highlighted and provided links for. It's fine to have views, sticking to them rigidly, provided they are informed views and I have to say, from the way you sidestep some issues, yours cannot possibly be and I see your uninformed opinions bearing little difference to those who act out of ignorance due to distinct disadvantages such as educaiton for example.

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ORIGINAL: Jeffff

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ORIGINAL: Smith117

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ORIGINAL: Jeffff

His answer is he will never find himself in the position to be wrongly accused and convicted of a capitol crime. that lead to Kittens delusional optimistic post. I agree with Kitten

Jeff

Ahhh another who can't understand well thought-out replies. My previous reply was for you as well then.

Thank you, I feel better knowing your position on this is beyond my comprehension. I find your response disingenuous at best. to say you would die, is easy to say from the comfort of your home or office.

Jeff

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

So instead you would die a martyr, just so that guilty people would perish or be deterred?

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

So you are openly admitting that you would be willing for the real perpertrator of your crime to walk around free and able to commit another serious crime, and your family devastated and tainted by your crime and death, so that you can be a martyr for a cause you support?

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

by your reasoning then Smith, we should execute all offenders so that we may live in a crime free world?

(we tried that too, by the way - didnt work out)

E

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ORIGINAL: Smith117
I advocate the death penalty for anyone who does such unspeakable acts without care or remorse. It's been shown (and debated) that serial killers frequenly have their antics traced back to something as 'innocuous' as cruelty to or killing animals at a young age. If the people in the original post are doing this kind of horric crime at "that young age" then in my opinion, they are already too far gone to help. The one who disagrees with me and tries to help them still is a far better person than I am, I admit that. Because I can tell you this, if person was a famliy member of mine, the courts would only be involved to determine if *I* should stand charges or be committed. The offenders in the case mentioned by the original post would not have the chance.

I'm reminded of a scene in a movie. The movie is Serentiy. The "operative," (whose job it is to stop the Serenity crew and kill their passenger because of the secrets she posesses) has a conversation with Mal, the leader of the Serentity crew after Mal discovers that the operative has destroyed an entire, peaceful village in order to get to Mal. (I'm paraphrasing here of course)

Mal asks why he would destory the men, women and children in the village just to get to Mal and the operative states that "When your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground for him to go to." The operative goes on to state that he believes in a perfect, peaceful society where the "likes of Mal and crew" are not a problem. Mal asks:

Mal: So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?
Operative: I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.

I use that scene to illustrate my view on the death penalty. (Or try to anyway). The death penalty isn't nice. It's not 'pretty' and there are very few who can carry it out and sleep at night. But it's necessary. It's necessary because the alternative is worse. No one likes war, everyone hates to fight. But sometimes, wars must be fought. Sometimes people get hurt in war, and not always just the fighters.

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ORIGINAL: Smith117

But people like the ones in the original post? Yes. People like the guy who killed the young girl in Utah after raping her? Yes. people like the guy who raped that young girl in Florida and then buried her alive clutching her teddy bear? YES.

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ORIGINAL: Smith117

Not every criminal, no. But the 'heinous' ones? Yes. Absolutely.

Small crimes like blue-collar tax fraud? No. Drug users? No. The ones caught with an ounce of weed (that was legal up until like the 1930's)? No.

But people like the ones in the original post? Yes. People like the guy who killed the young girl in Utah after raping her? Yes. people like the guy who raped that young girl in Florida and then buried her alive clutching her teddy bear? YES.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

we can acclimatise them all we like

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ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

You might be fine with that. I'm not. I'm not anti-death penalty entirely, I am anti the system which allows a person, that clearly has been rehabilitated, to be put to death,  and as per your comment below regarding there being no deterrent, education and psychotherapy have clearly been shown to positively affect many. Here are just three such cases:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Bulger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Bell

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ORIGINAL: Smith117
Now granted, I'm not saying I'd want to be that ONE innocent person this instance. However, if I were, I also wouldn't want my case used as justification for letting real killers go either.

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ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan


And therein lies the difference, Smith.

Evil - a term used to describe intentional acts inflicted by those who are immoral, as opposed to the acts inflicted by those that are amoral who, once educated and given CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) are able to distinguish right from wrong.

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ORIGINAL: givingin

Do you think that every single person can be rehabilitated?

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Don't you think there is a point of no return?

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Should every person that commits acts like this be given the chance to rehab then be let out into society to see if it sticks?

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I still feel they must pay for those actions and face what punishment they bring.

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I believe there is good in everyone, or atleast I try to see that.  Sometimes I search and search though and it seems that some people are just plain bad, evil, or just don't give a crap.  I am not trying to judge them, but their actions scream very loudly for them.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

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ORIGINAL: Smith117

But people like the ones in the original post? Yes. People like the guy who killed the young girl in Utah after raping her? Yes. people like the guy who raped that young girl in Florida and then buried her alive clutching her teddy bear? YES.

but if we are to execute only those whose crimes include aggravated circumstances such as these - which are clear signs of sociopathology and probable psychopathology - and not execute those who commit the same offence (being sociopathological or psychopathic is not an offence in itself), then we are executing people for being insane - for that is the distinguishing factor for which death is being proposed - not the actual offence.

E

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

But then the victims family are then lied to - treated to believe that the person who commited the crime, has been measured, weighed and served.  That is far worse than the death of you.  And what happens when the real guilt comes to light - it may be all well and good you have martyred yourself for the sake of the death penalty - but if the real perp comes to light, your martyrdom then lays so heavy on the victims you leave behind.  What you speak of, is pre-meditated as you have already decided for yourself, regardless of those your decision may touch in the future and I know this may sound harsh, makes you no better than the real 'bad guy'.

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I do understand your stance but I cannot agree with it.  Those serial killers, murderers, forgers, pre meditated crimes, attacks, rapists who are not mentally stable will not be deterred by their own death, for indeed they are martyrs for their own cause - and you would only be another insignificant in their eyes.

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ORIGINAL: Smith117


I disagree. I think one innocent person, wrongfully put to death (and let's face it when the truth comes out, his family WILL be compensated) is a small price to pay for ensuring that the REAL bad guys are stopped from harming more.

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If we have to let REAL bad guys go or continue to do harm, the potential for further harm is far greater than the occasional innocent person put to death. That's one person. The potential victims of the real bad guys are impossible to count.

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Now granted, I'm not saying I'd want to be that ONE innocent person this instance. However, if I were, I also wouldn't want my case used as justification for letting real killers go either.

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ORIGINAL: Jeffff

The problem with that is who defines heinous. Is rape heinous? how about a vicious assault? Also, law enforcement does SOMETIMES have a tendency to just close the case. I am not talking about the John Gaceys of the world, those are easy.

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ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

But is there specifically a need to do so otherwise?