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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:05:04 AM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Smith, I'm too long in the tooth for the blagging game.

Would you be the innocent person putting yourself on the chopping block?

If you can't answer with a yes or a no, then please save your energy and don't reply.


If you're incapable of understanding my replies, I refuse to dumb myself down for you, sorry. I won't bow to the lowest common denominator.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:06:53 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		What was it about 'hurling insults'?!!! Perhaps you should calm down, and come back after your time out, Smith. This thread was perfectly peaceful before your arrival.

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:08:38 AM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

What was it about 'hurling insults'?!!! Perhaps you should calm down, and come back after your time out, Smith. This thread was perfectly peaceful before your arrival.


I've not hurled an insult at you or anyone else, kittin. A shame you can't see that.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:12:05 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Hypothetical question Smith.
No 'I wouldn't put myself in that position'.
No 'escape clause'.
You are arrested and accused of a crime you did not commit.  You are willing to sacrifice your life, for the sake of deterring those that may commit a similar crime?
 
the.dark.


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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:14:29 AM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Hypothetical question Smith.
No 'I wouldn't put myself in that position'.
No 'escape clause'.
You are arrested and accused of a crime you did not commit.  You are willing to sacrifice your life, for the sake of deterring those that may commit a similar crime?
 
the.dark.



Please see my replies in posts #53 and #59. I've already given my answer.


< Message edited by Smith117 -- 2/26/2008 8:15:12 AM >

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:17:58 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I don't like the death penalty. I don't think it is fairly administerd. I would however have no problem if theses two ended up found in an ally and shot in the head.

Jeff

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:18:21 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		You might be fine with that. I'm not. I'm not anti-death penalty entirely, I am anti the system which allows a person, that clearly has been rehabilitated, to be put to death,  and as per your comment below regarding there being no deterrent, education and psychotherapy have clearly been shown to positively affect many. Here are just three such cases:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Bulger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Bell

I understand your previous comments were designed to be inflammatory, I cannot believe that anyone, unless they have serious MH issues themselves, would advocate the death penalty for children that have committed crimes.

As for peace of mind for victims of crime. Putting a murderer to death is not going to provide peace of mind for any victim's family/friends, etc... they will derive a small comfort from an act of revenge, but the death penalty isn't going to fill that void.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117
The sad truth is that there *is* no deterrent for crimes. Prison certainly doesn't work. Hell most prisoners live better than the rest of us. (Free cable, free food, free health care and education??)

The death penalty gives peace of mind to the victims left behind. It tells the man who just lost a wife, or the woman who lost a child, that this person will not be taking someone else's loved one again, ever.

I'm fine with that.


< Message edited by MissMorrigan -- 2/26/2008 8:24:20 AM >

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:19:42 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I don't wish to seem rude, but a yes or no would surfice to state your case clearly.  The said 'answers' do not answer directly, simply make your point that you agree with the death penalty, but that you would not wish to be the 'one' - so unless I am reading your post incorrectly, your answer is no.
 
Holding a position and yet not upholding it?
 
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:22:26 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		General reply: I see the soft option do gooders are in full flow and whats worse most of 'em are Brits. Gawd 'elp us.

With regard to medical treatment, be it drug based  or "talking treatment", I think it is coming to be realised that neither produce consistant positive results.
In the last few days for example reports have appeared showing that anti depressant drugs are dangerous  addictive and when properly tested under blind conditions dont produce any better results than obtained by  placebos.

Similarly with "talking treatments" It matters not who is spoken to some people will change....eventually, and some wont. Dont forget also that there exist lots of different "talking treatments" many with almost mutually contradictary methods.
So it follows they cant all be right.

There exists only one argument against the death penalty IMO and that is the the wrong person may be executed.

Another point someone mentions "impulses". Well in the case mentioned the perps. behaved in a cunning pre planned way, with accepted delays, in order to do their awful things, under the influence of their impulses !

Is any case of murder Open and Shut. ? Yes. Extirminate them. Put them down.
Also the idea that you are only guilty of murder if you can be shown to have intended to kill is ridiculous and should be removed from the statute books.

Why do murder trials take so long.? I cant see any trial needing to take longer than about two weeks and most could be over in a couple of days.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:23:42 AM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

You might be fine with that. I'm not. I'm not anti-death penalty entirely, I am anti the system which allows a person, that clearly has been rehabilitated, to be put to death,  and as per your comment below regarding there being no deterrent, education and psychotherapy has clearly been shown to positively affect many. Here are just three such cases:



I don't think their rehab (on death row mind you) should asuage the penalty that the courts have determined they are to receive. "Oooops, I got an education....."my bad....please let me go. I'm awful sorry for committing this unspeakable act of horror. I'm better now though, see?"

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

I understand your previous comments were designed to be inflammatory, I cannot believe that anyone, unless they have serious MH issues themselves, would advocate the death penalty for children that have committed crimes.



Actually, no they aren't. They're designed and intended to convey my opionion without apology. I'm not going to apologize for believing the way I do, nor will I answer the same question three times just because it's asked in different ways.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

As for peace of mind for victims of crime. Putting a murderer to death is not going to provide peace of mind for any victim's family/friends, etc... they will derive a small comfort from an act of revenge, but the death penalty isn't going to fill that void.



No, but I can assure you that the ones whose offenders have gone on to victimize others in the same way would feel just as bad, if not worse.

(in reply to MissMorrigan)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:25:21 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		His answer is he will never find himself in the position to be wrongly accused and convicted of a capitol crime. that lead to Kittens delusional optimistic post. I agree with Kitten

Jeff

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:27:52 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I'm sorry Smith - at one point you favour capital punishment for the deterrent effect, then you say there is no deterrent resulting from it and its about closure for the victim's family.

You also seem quite happy to execute innocent people - even though this doesnt deter another murder (for instance) and wont bring closure to the victim's family when the truth is eventually outed.

The only purpose of the death penalty is to prevent the murderer from repeating his offence then? Which is accomplished, without the risk of executing anyone innocent, by lifetime incarceration - which also retains the ability to release the wrongly convicted should a different set of evidence be presented later, and compensate them.

Prison conditions for those incarcerated for life are another topic of course. But there is little purpose to punitive conditions when the aim is to maintain public safety by the incarceration.

E

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RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:29:45 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

But there is little purpose to punitive conditions when the aim is to maintain public safety by the incarceration.



This is implacable logic.

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:31:18 AM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I don't wish to seem rude, but a yes or no would surfice to state your case clearly.  The said 'answers' do not answer directly, simply make your point that you agree with the death penalty, but that you would not wish to be the 'one' - so unless I am reading your post incorrectly, your answer is no.

Holding a position and yet not upholding it?

the.dark.


Alright, I will state plainly once again and I will explain each sentence as I paste it, k?

"Now granted, I'm not saying I'd want to be that ONE innocent person this instance. However, if I were, I also wouldn't want my case used as justification for letting real killers go either."

"However, yes. If by some weird set of circumstances, I found myself facing overwhelming evidence despite my knowledge of my innocence.....if I were found guilty because of that evidence despite knowing I didn't do it. I would of course use my appeals. But failing that, I would not let anyone use me as a martyr to end the death penalty. Because I'd know that to save hundreds of innocents, occasionally one must die."

In these sentences I am saying that while I will not go to the nearest prison and throw my hands up, asking to be put to death for no reason, IF I were in the situation where I were an innocent man on death row, obviously I would use my appeals as allowed by law. But if, at the end of the day, they still said to fry me, I would not be the martyr of an advocate group seeking to abolish the death penalty. I would die.

"I'm reasonably sure (as reasonably as one can be in this hypothetical situation) that I would use my last words to explain that although I know I didn't do it, I believe the death penalty works and therefore I do not consent to anyone point to my case as a means to abolish a penalty that gives the innocent victims peace of mind."

In these sentences, I indicate that I am 'as sure as one can be in a hypothetical situation' that once exhausting my appeals I would be put to death. It further stipulates that when given my chance to speak my last words, I would indicate once more than I was innocent and that I knew it and it would likely come out after I'm gone. However, despite this I don't want my case used as a reason to abolish the death penalty that I do believe in, because I am willing to die to make sure that real murders can be stopped from harming others.

Is that clear enough?

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:32:28 AM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

His answer is he will never find himself in the position to be wrongly accused and convicted of a capitol crime. that lead to Kittens delusional optimistic post. I agree with Kitten

Jeff


Ahhh another who can't understand well thought-out replies. My previous reply was for you as well then.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:32:54 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm sorry Smith - at one point you favour capital punishment for the deterrent effect, then you say there is no deterrent resulting from it and its about closure for the victim's family.

You also seem quite happy to execute innocent people - even though this doesnt deter another murder (for instance) and wont bring closure to the victim's family when the truth is eventually outed.


Bringing closure to a victims family is not only negated when an innocent person is killed for the said crime, but totally negated by the non closure that the family of the innocent person who is put to death goes through when they know they are innocent?
Smith, really that makes no sense.  As a person who has been placed in the position of having a family member die at the hands of another, I would want to see justice - not a possibly innocent person accused of a crime they may not of commited.
 
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:33:23 AM   
MissMorrigan


Posts: 2309
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Smith, I certainly wouldn't want anyone apologising for their views. What I am trying to do is understand why you advocate putting to death children (let's face it, they are) as a preferable method of 'dealing' with someone who has grown up with a distinct lack of education, social advantages, etc... who then went on to commit a murder. I noticed that while you continue to put forth your views, you sidestepped answering directly on the cases of those I highlighted and provided links for. It's fine to have views, sticking to them rigidly, provided they are informed views and I have to say, from the way you sidestep some issues, yours cannot possibly be and I see your uninformed opinions bearing little difference to those who act out of ignorance due to distinct disadvantages such as educaiton for example.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117
I don't think their rehab (on death row mind you) should asuage the penalty that the courts have determined they are to receive. "Oooops, I got an education....."my bad....please let me go. I'm awful sorry for committing this unspeakable act of horror. I'm better now though, see?"

Actually, no they aren't. They're designed and intended to convey my opionion without apology. I'm not going to apologize for believing the way I do, nor will I answer the same question three times just because it's asked in different ways.

No, but I can assure you that the ones whose offenders have gone on to victimize others in the same way would feel just as bad, if not worse.


_____________________________

The Tooth Fairy who teaches kids to sell body parts for money.

A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:37:12 AM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm sorry Smith - at one point you favour capital punishment for the deterrent effect, then you say there is no deterrent resulting from it and its about closure for the victim's family....

The only purpose of the death penalty is to prevent the murderer from repeating his offence then? Which is accomplished, without the risk of executing anyone innocent, by lifetime incarceration - which also retains the ability to release the wrongly convicted should a different set of evidence be presented later, and compensate them.



That's right. Because each case is different. Some victims DO indicate a sense of closure when a criminal is put down. "Some" criminals are deterred from going that extra, horrific step in whatever they're doing by the thought of the death penalty. You can argue these points all day long. No one case is the exact same as the next one. They are all different.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

You also seem quite happy to execute innocent people -



Actually, I've said nothing of the kind. I said it's not the ideal, but it happens. Just like it happens in war. One needn't be happy about this fact, one must only accept it as fact. I accept it because I feel the alternative is far worse in my opinion.

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:39:25 AM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Bringing closure to a victims family is not only negated when an innocent person is killed for the said crime, but totally negated by the non closure that the family of the innocent person who is put to death goes through when they know they are innocent?
Smith, really that makes no sense.  As a person who has been placed in the position of having a family member die at the hands of another, I would want to see justice - not a possibly innocent person accused of a crime they may not of commited.
 
the.dark.


I understand that. However that is not the failing of the death penalty as a whole. It's a failing of the system that allowed an innocent person to be put down. I agree the system is fucked up. But abolishing the death penalty is not the answer, fixing the system IS. And while we talk about fixing that system, we should not be letting animals run loose on our streets.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol ... - 2/26/2008 8:40:52 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

"Now granted, I'm not saying I'd want to be that ONE innocent person this instance. However, if I were, I also wouldn't want my case used as justification for letting real killers go either."

"However, yes. If by some weird set of circumstances, I found myself facing overwhelming evidence despite my knowledge of my innocence.....if I were found guilty because of that evidence despite knowing I didn't do it. I would of course use my appeals. But failing that, I would not let anyone use me as a martyr to end the death penalty. Because I'd know that to save hundreds of innocents, occasionally one must die."

In these sentences I am saying that while I will not go to the nearest prison and throw my hands up, asking to be put to death for no reason, IF I were in the situation where I were an innocent man on death row, obviously I would use my appeals as allowed by law. But if, at the end of the day, they still said to fry me, I would not be the martyr of an advocate group seeking to abolish the death penalty. I would die.


So instead you would die a martyr, just so that guilty people would perish or be deterred?

quote:

"I'm reasonably sure (as reasonably as one can be in this hypothetical situation) that I would use my last words to explain that although I know I didn't do it, I believe the death penalty works and therefore I do not consent to anyone point to my case as a means to abolish a penalty that gives the innocent victims peace of mind."

In these sentences, I indicate that I am 'as sure as one can be in a hypothetical situation' that once exhausting my appeals I would be put to death. It further stipulates that when given my chance to speak my last words, I would indicate once more than I was innocent and that I knew it and it would likely come out after I'm gone. However, despite this I don't want my case used as a reason to abolish the death penalty that I do believe in, because I am willing to die to make sure that real murders can be stopped from harming others.

 
So you are openly admitting that you would be willing for the real perpertrator of your crime to walk around free and able to commit another serious crime, and your family devastated and tainted by your crime and death, so that you can be a martyr for a cause you support?

quote:

Is that clear enough?
 
Absolutely.  Thank you.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 2/26/2008 8:42:24 AM >

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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