RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid



Message

LadyEllen -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 6:08:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Why?  I put it in exactly the same bracket. The thirst for inflicting pain on another. The motives are indifferent: political treason, retribution, justice or pleasure. If anything, legalised torture is even more heinous: it doesn't even have the excuse of insanity.



The reason I distinguish is because the ancient use of torture was not to do with the enjoyment of making someone suffer - though it may have been enjoyed - it was done with the mistaken notion that it was a valuable means of extracting valid information - the same process and aims said to be fulfilled by waterboarding for instance, which some have defended here and which the US government claims is effective in its aims.

These modern instances have no such aim - they are purely about the perverse enjoyment derived from inflicting pain on a sentient being. There is no other reason for its being done. And this is also where it varies from the sort of instances we have all come across in our own interactions and observations of human behaviour - there is nothing gained from it or claimed to be gotten by it, but pleasure.

E



Aswad -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 6:11:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Reactionary Conservatism built on emotionally charged cases such as these, is not fit to determine law.


Bingo. Else, we might as well just go back to vigilantism and blood feuds.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 6:23:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

but this is new in our age in that there is no motive whatever for it in many of these cases except to enjoy a perverse form of entertainment. And this is torture, whether or not it be called by that name - and the sole purpose of torture is torture itself.


Not so long ago, the west conducted torture, executions and combined "events" in public.
It gathered crowds, and you could sometimes buy mementos.
It clearly is entertaining in some way.

I do wonder, though, why a disabled girl who had just been through brain surgery was left unattended.

quote:

My view is that at least some of the root cause is to be found in the disempowerment these offenders feel, possibly accompanied by having been subjected to similar offences themselves by others. The offence is therefore a form of taking back control and transferring the demons to another.


Or it could just be plain sadism. If it weren't a disabled person, it'd be in my repertoire of fantasies.

The difference is they actually acted on it, which implies a disconnect somewhere.

I don't think it's got anything to do with taking back control.

quote:

Apparently it is said that the best torturers are those who have been tortured.


Perhaps. That'd probably at least be true for interrogations, but probably not so for pure entertainment.

Also, I suspect empathy is a more critical trait to possess, for both purposes.

quote:

Given that this is, as seems to be the case with child abuse, is a chain which transfers down the generations of the abused becoming abusers, such long term incarceration of any committing such offences should also operate to help to break that chain.


That's a complicated subject. At least parts of it are genetic. The abuse mostly seems to make a difference between becoming a psychopath and just being highly successful in life, if that. Psychopaths who know how to exercise restraint and focus seem to be fairly prevalent in the upper echelons of society. Which makes sense, as a corporation pretty much by definition fits the usual definitions of psychopathy, e.g. no remorse, etc.

Anyway, a hysterectomy or castration would prevent propagation of the trait.

But I'm not convinced that's such a brilliant idea, long term.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Aswad -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 6:29:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Do you advocate a return to traditional public spectacle bloodsports such as bear baiting to allow for the vicarious release of sadistic impulses so that such instances as we find in the OP are reduced?


I think it'd be better to reintroduce gladiator sports; the bears cannot consent, after all.
Consider how much money is made by a professional football player, for instance.
Gladiators were viewed in much the same way back in ancient Rome.
And both boxing, UFC, etc. remain popular to this day.

So, why not have a constructive outlet for people's bloodlust?

Let the psychos tear each other up and let the masses cheer; what's the problem?

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 6:30:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The death penalty seems to be a popular topic on these forums (punishment v rehabilitation); rehabilitation is the mark of a civilised society, in my book.


Being from a society where rehabilitation actually works, I may be biased, but I heartily agree.

Health,
al-Aswad.



kittinSol -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 6:34:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Let the psychos tear each other up and let the masses cheer; what's the problem?



I'm not convinced that bringing back circus games would deter domestic monsters, such as the two kids in question on this thread, from acting on impulses. If anything, it might induce more violence and generate a copycat effect.

Besides, we could argue that people's sadism is already satiated by entertainment: between televised sports, reality shows, and online sickness, it's all at the end... of our fingertips... if we so choose.



LadyEllen -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 6:34:57 AM)

Unfortunately, the Human rights Act may preclude gladiatorial combat as a means of dealing with offenders, and the law generally preclude non offenders from taking part.

But we are in a mess- rehabilitation only works if there is an accepting society to rehabiliate back into, with opportunity for former offenders to go straight. Our socio economic model cannot provide for this latter, and the former offender is given few opportunities but to engage in crime in a society where he is always a thief.

E



Aswad -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 6:40:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I'm not convinced that bringing back circus games would deter domestic monsters, such as the two kids in question on this thread, from acting on impulses. If anything, it might induce more violence and generate a copycat effect.


It might, or it might not. One critical point is that they can actually have a go at it themselves.

quote:

Besides, we could argue that people's sadism is already satiated by entertainment: between televised sports, reality shows, and online sickness, it's all at the end... of our fingertips... if we so choose.


That does not have the immediacy of sitting in a tribune at a violent event.

Just like sex trumps watching sex, which in turn trumps porn.

Anyway, not saying it's perfect.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Aswad -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 6:44:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Unfortunately, the Human rights Act may preclude gladiatorial combat as a means of dealing with offenders, and the law generally preclude non offenders from taking part.


I was proposing that the latter be remedied, not that criminals be used in such a way.

quote:

But we are in a mess- rehabilitation only works if there is an accepting society to rehabiliate back into, with opportunity for former offenders to go straight. Our socio economic model cannot provide for this latter, and the former offender is given few opportunities but to engage in crime in a society where he is always a thief.


Yup. But a civilization may eventually rise from the ashes of a fallen empire. [;)]

Up here, we put a lot of effort into acclimatizing them before returning them to society.

All in all, it has been good for crime statistics, as well as being a financially reasonably sound option.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Owner59 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 6:45:43 AM)

 Hopefully they`ll be tried as adults.

That story about the Aussie Dr. who harmed those women so horribly was stuck in my head all day yesterday.

He is like a "Hannibal Lecter" with his sick,frightening MO and the suffering he inflicted.

There will always be super evil people.The death penalty won`t stop these fuckers.

The death penalty and our very flawed legal system will however, eventually kill innocent people who didn`t do the crime.

I wish people would be more honest about the DP and admit it`s about revenge,not deterring crime.



LadyEllen -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:05:29 AM)

we can acclimatise them all we like - the point is when theyre released they cant get a job and get housed with others in a similar situation; where I live we have three high rise blocks, filled with the ne'er do wells of society, the mentally ill and every other sort of "reject" - theyre dumped here because no one else wants them in their neighbourhood, and no one wants to live here - chicken and egg, vicious circle etc. The crime rate for all sorts of crimes, is spectacular - but we cant expect them to do anything other than what they can when theyre not given anything better as a future prospect.

E



MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:06:28 AM)

I think it far less important which category they are tried under, whether that be as children or adults, than it is for them to receive psychotherapy.

Edited to add: Owner, answer this: A person having committed such a heinous crime has received psychotherapy and responded positively to it, would you still advocate that person be put to death, even if they are a teenager ("Hopefully they`ll be tried as adults."), if so, would you be willing to take personal responsibility for that? Afterall, someone's gotta do it, yes?



kittinSol -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:12:44 AM)

Exactly - what happened to Thompson and Venables? Didn't they get out in 2001?



Sinergy -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:14:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I agree with most of your post, LadyEllen - however, insane, sadistic violence is nothing new. Whatever the motives of the perpetrators, the violence acts as a catharsis for sadistic impulses, and this has always existed.

First thing that springs to mind is the Inquisition. But there's a plethora of other examples, too.


First thing that sprang to my mind was Abu Graibh and the Surge.

Sinergy



MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:15:51 AM)

Yes, they did, KittinSol. They aren't exceptions either and yet, psychologists such as Jonathan Kellerman have indicted that a person's pathology is 'set' by the time they reach adolescence... yet, we are repeatedly seeing cases to the contrary. It's easy to condemn a person, "Fry the bastard!", yet I wonder how many would be detached, emotionally speaking, enough to do it themselves. I rather think not many.



LadyEllen -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:20:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

ie the argument I couldnt do such depraved things therefore those that do are mentally ill is a fallacy IMO.


It is a useful "fallacy" for this instance though Seeks - such people representing a danger by virtue of their inherent depravity, they must be incarcerated for as long as they represent a danger. Whether thats in a prison or a secure psych ward isnt as important as the protection afforded to society thereby - and whereas the prison deems rehabilitation to have occurred (for some bizarre reason) when a certain number of days have elapsed, release from the psych ward is less likely to be governed by time as by actual rehabilitation.

E



LadyEllen -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:23:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

It's easy to condemn a person, "Fry the bastard!", yet I wonder how many would be detached, emotionally speaking, enough to do it themselves. I rather think not many.


Given that it may indicate my own psychopathology to some - I would have no problem whatever to pull the lever, flick the switch or whatever. What I have a problem with is that we do not have, and may never have a system of justice which is effective enough to ensure that the guilty are identified in all cases and that is discerning enough to distinguish the sad from the mad from the bad.

E



NorthernGent -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:26:00 AM)

How many would support the death penalty in the event it was his/her son on trial?



givingin -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:26:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The death penalty seems to be a popular topic on these forums (punishment v rehabilitation); rehabilitation is the mark of a civilised society, in my book.


Being from a society where rehabilitation actually works, I may be biased, but I heartily agree.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Not bashing, just asking a sincere question.  Do you think that every single person can be rehabilitated?  I mean, if Ted Bundy had the chance, or the worst and most evil (by a standard set on a scale of the show "Most Evil" that I watch), could actually change if given the chance.

Don't you think there is a point of no return?  That place in the brain that can never come back and feel empathy for another persons suffering at their hands.  Should every person that commits acts like this be given the chance to rehab then be let out into society to see if it sticks? 

Don't get me wrong, I do think that people can change and be sorry for what they have done.  I still feel they must pay for those actions and face what punishment they bring.

Just because someone is young does not mean they will ever be different than they are at this moment.  I don't know if it's in the brain chemistry, the way they were raised, or from some deep gene mutation that hasn't been discovered yet.

I believe there is good in everyone, or atleast I try to see that.  Sometimes I search and search though and it seems that some people are just plain bad, evil, or just don't give a crap.  I am not trying to judge them, but their actions scream very loudly for them.



kittinSol -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:26:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

First thing that sprang to my mind was Abu Graibh and the Surge.



Alas, examples abound.



Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.03125