RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment

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MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:31:25 AM)
Lady Ellen, the point I was trying to make earlier is that the person put to death for his/her crime/s isn't the same person (usually) that committed them. People wait on death row for sometimes up to 18 years before finally having their death sentence carried out, long after they have been educated (taking advantage of the prison's resources), received counselling and spent years removed from society (rightly so) but yet, can you still think it justice to see that person put to death? Seriously, where is the justice in that? While some criminals can be likened to leopards, insofar as never changing their spots, many that have gone the route of the death penalty have clearly been remorseful at their crimes and actively took steps to better themselves while in prison.

Smith117 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:32:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: lazarus1983 Does Cincinnatti have the death penalty? Even if it does, it's doubtful that these teens will get what they so rightfully deserve, because of their age. I think the Supreme Court set that either 17 or 18 is the limit, and no one under. Besides, they'll just claim some kind of mental defection. And for some strange reason, that's an actual valid defense. Good points about them being too young to be put to death; I was so angry at reading it, that never crossed my mind. Who cares about their age? I say put them down now before they have a chance to get older and "hone their craft." It's obvious they will not contribute to society. I say they should not be in it.

MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:33:37 AM)
I gave three examples earlier that conflict with your theory.

Smith117 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:35:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan Lady Ellen, the point I was trying to make earlier is that the person put to death for his/her crime/s isn't the same person (usually) that committed them. People wait on death row for sometimes up to 18 years before finally having their death sentence carried out, long after they have been educated (taking advantage of the prison's resources), received counselling and spent years removed from society (rightly so) but yet, can you still think it justice to see that person put to death? Seriously, where is the justice in that? So because they got an education while sitting and awaiting death (when their alternative is to stare at the walls) we should just "forgive them?" I think not. I think the penalty phase should be sped up to disallow the educating of the death-row inmates. I think it's a ploy anyway. They aren't bettering themselves out of the goodness of their hearts. They have nothing better to do while in a 6 x 6 cell awaiting DEATH. And furthermore, what's their motivation? If they know they are condemned to die, I have to think their motivation is exactly what you said. Get an education and 'better themselves' so that people like you will take mercy and let them live. The same kind of mercy they themselves denied to their victims. Screw that. Kill them, and do it publicly. That's the only way others will learn.

LadyEllen -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:40:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan Lady Ellen, the point I was trying to make earlier is that the person put to death for his/her crime/s isn't the same person (usually) that committed them. People wait on death row for sometimes up to 18 years before finally having their death sentence carried out, long after they have been educated (taking advantage of the prison's resources), received counselling and spent years removed from society (rightly so) but yet, can you still think it justice to see that person put to death? Seriously, where is the justice in that? While some criminals can be likened to leopards, insofar as never changing their spots, many that have gone the route of the death penalty have clearly been remorseful at their crimes and actively took steps to better themselves while in prison. Dont get me wrong - I disagree with the death penalty fundamentally for the reasons I stated; one innocent person executed undermines the whole idea - and our justice systems are not up to the job of ensuring only the guilty are condemned. And yes, long periods on death row fulfil no useful purpose apart from protecting the public by way of the incarceration, in which case the incarceration continued is better than executing the wrong person. But I would have no problem whatever in killing if the need arose. E

Smith117 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:44:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen Dont get me wrong - I disagree with the death penalty fundamentally for the reasons I stated; one innocent person executed undermines the whole idea - and our justice systems are not up to the job of ensuring only the guilty are condemned. I disagree. I think one innocent person, wrongfully put to death (and let's face it when the truth comes out, his family WILL be compensated) is a small price to pay for ensuring that the REAL bad guys are stopped from harming more. If we have to let REAL bad guys go or continue to do harm, the potential for further harm is far greater than the occasional innocent person put to death. That's one person. The potential victims of the real bad guys are impossible to count. Now granted, I'm not saying I'd want to be that ONE innocent person this instance. However, if I were, I also wouldn't want my case used as justification for letting real killers go either.

MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:45:35 AM)
If, by your logic, the education/counselling on offer is used to 'dupe' the public into thinking those persons had rehabilitated, surely ALL death row prisoners would follow suit, clearly that's not the case, Smith. And you forget, so many of those on death row have not previously had the opportunities of such luxuries as a decent upbringing, a good education, positive role models, etc...

MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:47:24 AM)
Lady Ellen, neither would I if I needed/had to, such as to defend myself or someone less able to do so themselves. But is there specifically a need to do so otherwise? quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen But I would have no problem whatever in killing if the need arose.

kittinSol -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:47:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 I disagree. I think one innocent person, wrongfully put to death (and let's face it when the truth comes out, his family WILL be compensated) is a small price to pay for ensuring that the REAL bad guys are stopped from harming more. I take it you'll gladly sacrifice yourself when your time comes, Smithers. Yourself, or your loved ones. Small price to pay, right?

Smith117 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:47:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan If, by your logic, the education/counselling on offer is used to 'dupe' the public into thinking those persons had rehabilitated, surely ALL death row prisoners would follow suit, clearly that's not the case, Smith. And you forget, so many of those on death row have not previously had the opportunities of such luxuries as a decent upbringing, a good education, positive role models, etc... That's a fallacy in logic. Just because one death row inmate has figured out how to win sympathy doesn't mean the next hardcore killer will do the same. In either case, the education of a condemned man should NOT asuage the crimes that put him there in the first place. "Glad you cracked a book, finally. But you're still going to meet the needle, dude."

LadyEllen -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:47:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 Screw that. Kill them, and do it publicly. That's the only way others will learn. The benefits of this are that the executed do not reoffend - whether they were indeed offenders or not. But, we tried this already - we used to have a charming spectacle down at Tyburn and in every town and city across the country, where crowds would gather to watch the convicted dangle, twist, shit themselves, piss themselves and in the case of males, develop an erection and shoot everywhere. And we had crime rampant nevertheless. Even though we executed people even for the most minor crimes, and executed them publicly, there was no deterrent to more crime - because such an approach is only of any use for the "bad"; those predisposed for whatever reason to sociopathology. It does not work to counter crime motivated in the "sad" (those whose conditions are so poor that crime is a good alternative) or the "mad" (those who lack the mental prowess to know what theyre doing). One cannot deter the sad or the mad from crime by executing them. One can only deter the former by providing a better alternative means to improve their conditions, and one can only deter the latter by appropriate treatments of their conditions and symptoms. And even where we are sure someone is "bad", we cannot be 100% certain that they did the deed - and that is the problem which undermines capital punishment, along with its lack of deterrence for the majority of offenders, who are sad or mad rather than bad. E

NorthernGent -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:48:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 I disagree. I think one innocent person, wrongfully put to death (and let's face it when the truth comes out, his family WILL be compensated) is a small price to pay for ensuring that the REAL bad guys are stopped from harming more. Excellent - put yourself forward for the role of innocent person on the chopping block. If it ain't good for the goose, it ain't good for the gander.

Smith117 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:51:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 I disagree. I think one innocent person, wrongfully put to death (and let's face it when the truth comes out, his family WILL be compensated) is a small price to pay for ensuring that the REAL bad guys are stopped from harming more. I take it you'll gladly sacrifice yourself when your time comes, Smithers. Yourself, or your loved ones. Small price to pay, right? I won't sacrifice anything. I won't be in that situation, sweetie. And I can gaurantee you that if someone threatens me or my family, they are going down if it takes my last breath. See, here in Texas, our laws look out for the innocent ones. We have CHL laws and the recently adopted "castle law," which allow us to protect ourselves in the hopes of not being a victim of animals like this. However, I choose not to associate myself or endanger myself so that I would be mistaken for a murderer. However, yes. If by some weird set of circumstances, I found myself facing overwhelming evidence despite my knowledge of my innocence.....if I were found guilty because of that evidence despte knowing I didn't do it. I would of course use my appeals. But failing that, I would not let anyone use me as a martyr to end the death penalty. Because I'd know that to save hundreds of innocents, occasionally one must die. Happens in war all the time. You try and take out a bomb factory and you accidentally hit a school. Our bombers didn't target the school, it just happened. Shit happens. Welcome to the world.

Smith117 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:53:31 AM)
quote: Now granted, I'm not saying I'd want to be that ONE innocent person this instance. However, if I were, I also wouldn't want my case used as justification for letting real killers go either. quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 I disagree. I think one innocent person, wrongfully put to death (and let's face it when the truth comes out, his family WILL be compensated) is a small price to pay for ensuring that the REAL bad guys are stopped from harming more. Excellent - put yourself forward for the role of innocent person on the chopping block. If it ain't good for the goose, it ain't good for the gander. Since you're incapable of reading my entire post, I'll highlight this section for you. "Now granted, I'm not saying I'd want to be that ONE innocent person this instance. However, if I were, I also wouldn't want my case used as justification for letting real killers go either."

kittinSol -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:54:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 However, I choose not to associate myself or endanger myself so that I would be mistaken for a murderer. Clearly, a case of delusional optimism.

Smith117 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:55:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 Screw that. Kill them, and do it publicly. That's the only way others will learn. The benefits of this are that the executed do not reoffend - whether they were indeed offenders or not. But, we tried this already - we used to have a charming spectacle down at Tyburn and in every town and city across the country, where crowds would gather to watch the convicted dangle, twist, shit themselves, piss themselves and in the case of males, develop an erection and shoot everywhere. And we had crime rampant nevertheless. Even though we executed people even for the most minor crimes, and executed them publicly, there was no deterrent to more crime - because such an approach is only of any use for the "bad"; those predisposed for whatever reason to sociopathology. It does not work to counter crime motivated in the "sad" (those whose conditions are so poor that crime is a good alternative) or the "mad" (those who lack the mental prowess to know what theyre doing). One cannot deter the sad or the mad from crime by executing them. One can only deter the former by providing a better alternative means to improve their conditions, and one can only deter the latter by appropriate treatments of their conditions and symptoms. And even where we are sure someone is "bad", we cannot be 100% certain that they did the deed - and that is the problem which undermines capital punishment, along with its lack of deterrence for the majority of offenders, who are sad or mad rather than bad. E The sad truth is that there is no deterrent for crimes. Prison certainly doesn't work. Hell most prisoners live better than the rest of us. (Free cable, free food, free health care and education??) The death penalty gives peace of mind to the victims left behind. It tells the man who just lost a wife, or the woman who lost a child, that this person will not be taking someone else's loved one again, ever. I'm fine with that.

NorthernGent -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:56:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 quote: Now granted, I'm not saying I'd want to be that ONE innocent person this instance. However, if I were, I also wouldn't want my case used as justification for letting real killers go either. quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 I disagree. I think one innocent person, wrongfully put to death (and let's face it when the truth comes out, his family WILL be compensated) is a small price to pay for ensuring that the REAL bad guys are stopped from harming more. Excellent - put yourself forward for the role of innocent person on the chopping block. If it ain't good for the goose, it ain't good for the gander. Since you're incapable of reading my entire post, I'll highlight this section for you. "Now granted, I'm not saying I'd want to be that ONE innocent person this instance. However, if I were, I also wouldn't want my case used as justification for letting real killers go either." I did read it - your intentions are vague. In a word, would you put yourself forward as the innocent person on the chopping block - yes or no?

Smith117 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:56:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 However, I choose not to associate myself or endanger myself so that I would be mistaken for a murderer. Clearly, a case of delusional optimism. You going to actually contribute to the thread or just hurl insults at those you find disagree with you?

Smith117 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 7:58:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 quote: Now granted, I'm not saying I'd want to be that ONE innocent person this instance. However, if I were, I also wouldn't want my case used as justification for letting real killers go either. quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Smith117 I disagree. I think one innocent person, wrongfully put to death (and let's face it when the truth comes out, his family WILL be compensated) is a small price to pay for ensuring that the REAL bad guys are stopped from harming more. Excellent - put yourself forward for the role of innocent person on the chopping block. If it ain't good for the goose, it ain't good for the gander. Since you're incapable of reading my entire post, I'll highlight this section for you. "Now granted, I'm not saying I'd want to be that ONE innocent person this instance. However, if I were, I also wouldn't want my case used as justification for letting real killers go either." I did read it - your intentions are vague. In a word, would you put yourself forward as the innocent person on the chopping block - yes or no? I'm reasonably sure (as reasonably as one can be in this hypothetical situation) that I would use my last words to explain that although I know I didn't do it, I believe the death penalty works and therefore I do not consent to anyone point to my case as a means to abolish a penalty that gives the innocent victims peace of mind.

NorthernGent -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/26/2008 8:00:41 AM)
Smith, I'm too long in the tooth for the blagging game. Would you be the innocent person putting yourself on the chopping block? If you can't answer with a yes or a no, then please save your energy and don't reply.

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