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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

true enough - but there are delivery methods than oral. And we can test to ensure compliance.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

and in any case, theyre incarcerated, so there is no danger to the public.

E

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The problem Aswad, is that our socio-economic system cannot provide a decent apartment and a job to those who abide by the law, let alone those who have broken it. As things are going, it cannot even provide a decent apartment and a job to those who gained the qualifications normally required for a job, and most jobs do not pay enough to be able to obtain an apartment.

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Whilst there is an argument there to release people back with a hand up into a job and better accomodation in order to reduce their chances of further offences, we have to ask why a hand up should be given to those released, when no such hand up exists for those who did not break the law?

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The thing is though, many of those who break the law in the first place, do so because they find their conditions may only be bettered by crime - thus it is a socio economic problem from start to finish, and until we get our socio-economic models away from the current mindset ("fuck 'em all, winner takes all, devil take the hindmost" etc) we will continue to have this problem and this debate ad infinitum.

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

Neither is there any guarantee that you won't commit a crime.

But there's still a presumption of innocence in effect.

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ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Call me cynical, I was thinking along the lines of a pecuniary convenience vaguely disguised as retribution.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
And that is the interesting thing, is it not? That much of the problem behaviour is a result of a problem environment (including peers and other people).

I've had the same experience MsM - people who in their environment are monsters like the rest, are totally different people when removed from it.

And the funny thing is too, that within the "monster" environment, one is actually pretty safe, as long as one has been accepted into that environment. This is very difficult for me to achieve, seeing as how I can complete sentences with perfect grammar and without using the f word as a verb, adjective, noun and adverb, but once in, youre in. And you'd be surprised at who is how, once youre in.

E

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ORIGINAL: Aswad
I was referring to the arguments made, not the financial side of things. [;)]

Health,
al-Aswad.

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ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

The thing is, Lady Ellen, I'm not saying ALL inner city people are disadvantaged, that would be pretty ignorant of me, but I'm sure you'll agree there are specific areas, and not just restricted to inner city areas either, where people seem more disadvantaged than most. Worthing has its 'Quadrant' in the Durrington area, Lancing has its section too, and in London, there are many, Thamesmead is notorious for theirs, for instance.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Absolutely - I live in just such a disadvantaged area, and its not the inner city. I feel that its a side effect of our socio economic model that produces these areas - where the "rejected" end up.

E

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ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Three instances, given that the Jamie Bulger murder was committed by two persons, not one.

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As for limited proof of successful rehabilitation of those offenders. Those were just three persons I highlighted and they have been under constant scrutiny since their release, of that I have no doubt given the media scrutiny and constant attempts to protect their identities/locations, etc... So it's reasonable to expect they have not reoffended. They committed crimes against other children, were rehabilitated and went on to become parents themselves. A complaint commonly thrown against Social Services is for their seeming over-zealous actions, so again it's fair to assume that they were not only involved once the rehabilitated offenders became parents themselves, but have continued being involved. That, by no means, ensures people from reoffending, of course, however, if those persons had I'm sure the public would have heard about it given their high profile.

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As for my son ((I do not have a daughter) dating a rehabilitated offender... He coaches, in his spare time, inner city kids at sports, has many repeat offenders as friends, a lot of whom I have had in my home. Put back in their own environment they've reverted back to 'type' and it's pretty clear to determine why. In my home/my neighbourhood they've always been respectful of not only me, my home also.  Should my son go on to date a rehabilitated offender, I would like to think I'd take them on their merits as the person they are now, and not critique them for former behaviours/convictions.

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ORIGINAL: DaddyKeeper
A well known pair of instances, but of limited use as proof of rehabilitation. After all we, the public at large, have no idea at all if any of these three people have done anything more since, heck it is not inconcievable that they have all 3 been imprisoned again for other offences.

Call me a sceptic and/or a cynic and you would be right. There is no way the authourities would admit that rehabilitation had failed should any of those appear in a court again as defendant, it would be easier to admit to hanging an innocent person than admitting people like Venables or Thompson had been freed to perform such an act again.

Maybe your daughter or niece could one day be dating one of them, do you have that much faith in rehab? I barely have that much faith in humanity as a whole, let alone such individuals

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ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

You articulate so much better than I ever can when it comes to putting forth your opinions. An annoyance of mine is when people automatically assume such people are mentally ill, being disadvantaged does not push them into that category.

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Indeed, the problem is rather the reverse I find - that mental illness results in one falling down the socio-economic groups to the bottom. We covered this in A Level Psychology as an example of how statistics can be misinterpreted - most mentally ill people are in lower socio-economic groups, which may indicate that the poorer one is the more likely one is to be mentally ill, but which is taken to indicate rather than mental illness leads to a fall to the bottom.

Its the same with the likes of me; transsexuals are generally also found in the lower socio-economic groups, since transition usually results in the loss of a job and of home and family. No one would suggest that transsexualism is a result of being poor - indeed many prior to transition are highly successful people - it is that they are rejected by society at large and family too, that they fall to the bottom. Cynically though, one's fall is strongly affected by how well one passes - pass well such that no one knows, and the fall is small and can be made up - if you dont pass, youre on skid row for life. That my quite small neighbourhood has four transsexuals living within it, only one of whom is in employment - me, and I'm only in employment because I had the good fortune to have been in an industry where I could start my own company, says it all.

And its similar for almost every group of "rejected" one might identify in this neighbourhood. Whilst many of the parolees and former offenders we have came from poor backgrounds, not all did - but on release they all fell to the bottom, regardless of their stations prior to conviction. Again with the addicts and alcoholics - not all came from poor backgrounds, but this is where they end up.

And because we have the whole range of "rejects" living in this small area, it can be a dangerous place; we have the "sad", the "mad" and the "bad" who have found their ways here through whatever "social programme" which one might cynically think is about keeping other neighbourhoods safer. There is a lot of anger here, which boils over frequently into violence. There is a lot of hopelessness here, which drives people to crime or to drink/drugs and thence to crime. I am laughed at regularly on here by some for speaking about how it is to live in a place like this - "oh youre exaggerating" etc. I do not exaggerate - I am at ground zero in a place of desperation.

And yet. Very, very few of those here are actually "bad". Most of them are "sad" or "mad" and actually OK as people, but strongly adversely affected by their environment, especially those with whom they have been coralled by "social programmes" and the poor future which lies inevitably before them.

Its my belief that if we turned around our socio-economic system, we could "save" most of these people by providing better prospects and situations for them; all of the "sad" and most of the "mad" could live better, more productive and happier lives which in turn would translate into lower crime, because I would guess that the vast majority of crime originates from the "sad" and the "mad" - leaving us only the "bad", who represent a small minority of the whole - and a wholly better society than this current "the weak must perish" system.

Until we can get to a stage where we can employ all the law abiding and provide them with an adequate life however, we cannot even begin to talk about providing the same situation for former offenders - and this is why all the efforts we might make at rehabilitation fail so frequently, because we release people not to a new life, but to neglected neighbourhoods where they find themselves amongst the rejected, to a life which is hopelessly prejudiced forever. 

E

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Don't forget I'm going to Hell.

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ORIGINAL: Bella1965
Apparently Morrigan, you don't read very well. These are my opinions and I don't require any more or less information to form them.

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ORIGINAL: Bella1965
Often, the people that shout down capitol punishment haven't lost anyone dear to them. You'd act differently if someone you cared about was the victim or if you were in law enforcement.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

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ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan
So, by your logic, if we're going to be cleaning up the gene pool, would you also add yourself to that 'cleansing' process?  

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seeks wrote:

All humans are not good.!!!!

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As for capital punishment, by the OP's terms the above children should have been put to death upon coming of age... yet they were able to successfully be rehabilated. How can we possibly expect to lead by example if we're advocating the use of capital punishment?

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ORIGINAL: Smith117

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Dont get me wrong - I disagree with the death penalty fundamentally for the reasons I stated; one innocent person executed undermines the whole idea - and our justice systems are not up to the job of ensuring only the guilty are condemned.

I disagree. I think one innocent person, wrongfully put to death (and let's face it when the truth comes out, his family WILL be compensated) is a small price to pay for ensuring that the REAL bad guys are stopped from harming more. If we have to let REAL bad guys go or continue to do harm, the potential for further harm is far greater than the occasional innocent person put to death. That's one person. The potential victims of the real bad guys are impossible to count.

Now granted, I'm not saying I'd want to be that ONE innocent person this instance. However, if I were, I also wouldn't want my case used as justification for letting real killers go either.

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ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I don't like the death penalty. I don't think it is fairly administerd. I would however have no problem if theses two ended up found in an ally and shot in the head.

Jeff