RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (Full Version)

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Jeffff -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 5:06:20 AM)

Fact.
http://www.truthinjustice.org/exonerated.htm

Jeff



LadyEllen -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 6:27:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I see that Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is being presented as a possible cure to the problem of what to do with psychotic people who commit sadistic murders. In fact as I understand it CBT is used on for example depressed people who as a rule present more harm to themselves than to others. It takes months and months if not years  to achieve, I would guess, not a lot and without any doubt whatsoever will fail occasionally.

So, treat with CBT, then release and get the absolutely certain repeat crime. This has happened with other psychotherapies why not CBT ?

I find LadyE's repeated assertion that if only the Socio Economic model could be changed and "we" could provide everyone with a job then all would well to be totally unconvincing. As I understand it the old Soviet Union in fact did try to employ almost everyone with no significant fall in the homicide rate.
In fact in theory Communism in its pure form was expected to eliminate crime altogether when what actually happened was that some of those who ran such regimes figured amongst the biggest mass murderers the world has ever seen
http://hsx.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/12/1/117.pdf?ck=nck



CBT works Seeks - though it is really only suitable for the neurotic (ie those affected by "wrong thought mechanisms") rather than the psychotic (those who brain function is inherently "wrong"). And it can work quickly - I did it to myself and got through and "cured" within a month. All depends on circumstances I guess, but its a good initial step for most cases, which fall into the neurotic class.

As for my comments on socio-economic reform - who said anything about communism? I am thinking something very different.

E



seeksfemslave -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 7:00:53 AM)

I did. I am pointing out that when "regimes" attempt to employ almost everyone crime does not whither away.

Going thru' a form of pschotherapy and pronouncing oneself healed does not demonstrate that the particular method was the cure. Just as likely a sympathetic "ear" did the trick.
Just as important, an independant "before and after" assessment needs to be made.

I'm neurotic as hell and I wouldnt know where to start to "cure" myself. lol
I am serious.
Neurosis/Phsychosis are just labels used by the mind benders. Very little is known about what really motivates individuals.



kittinSol -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 8:12:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Very little is known about what really motivates individuals.



According to Freud, everything comes down to sexual impulse, conscious or not. I think he had a point.



Bella1965 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 8:38:11 AM)

G'morning all:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff
Fact.
http://www.truthinjustice.org/exonerated.htm
Jeff

Oh look. An outdated internet clipping completely out of context with the subject at hand. Someone knows how to misuse Google. How enlightening. You really do need to come up with something more relevant to the discussion at hand.


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella



Jeffff -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 8:53:43 AM)

The discussion at hand? the value of the death penalty?

Jeff



MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 8:59:01 AM)

Jeff, maybe you should start referencing the bible, we can also start taking the kids to public executions, clapping and cheering as someone is anally impaled... what a great day out!



LadyEllen -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 8:59:18 AM)

Sorry Seeks - no "sympathetic ear" but my own for me back then, and if you want a before and after assessment, here it is;

Before; suicidal, come close once, near close twice
After; not suicidal

Good enough results I feel

Neurosis and psychosis are not mere labels, they define the nature of the mental illness and divide mental illnesses into two main divisions; very simplistically - 
Neurosis is to do with "wrong thinking" and sometimes accompanying chemical imbalances in a structurally well brain - these sorts of illnesses respond to therapy and correction of chemical balance.
Psychosis is to do with faulty brain function due to faulty brain structure, which may also present with chemical imbalances - these sorts respond to correction of chemical balance in some cases, but otherwise its about keeping the faulty functioning under control pending development of greater ability in brain surgery to correct the structural faults.

And on the socio-economics, if 80% of crime is done by the "sad" because they have no satisfactory alternatives by which to fulfill their aspirations, then surely providing employment will tend to reduce the crime level? Yes, there will still be crime - by some of the "sad", all of the "bad" (untouched by any measure but incarceration) and some of the "mad" - though if we provided treatment as we ought, this would be reduced if not brought to nil, very rapidly.

E




Jeffff -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 9:00:57 AM)

Would that be the Old Testament or the New?

Jeff



MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 9:04:43 AM)

I don't know, you luke into it [;)]



Jeffff -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 9:09:50 AM)

Ok, how is this?
In the Sermon on the Mount in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus says:


You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.—Matthew 5:38-42, NIV I certainly hope I have not misused google Jeff



MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 9:17:08 AM)

Beat your browser, it's there to be misused.

As I said yesterday, people tend to read the bible, take references from it and apply their own interpretation, often poorly and typically to support antisocial views, such as with the Westboro Baptist Church and its members who clearly are raving and use religion as a vehicle for their cause.



LadyEllen -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 9:17:15 AM)

Talking like that will get you the death penalty Jeff - hope you realise?

Just not by the more familar methods we use in the modern world

E



Bella1965 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 11:16:42 AM)

G'afternoon all:


Jeff - If you had paid attention to the original post at the beginning of the thread (which has gotten taken into a totally different direction), you'll notice the OP's appalled by the atrocity committed and nearly rethinks his stance on capitol punishment. I go a step further, since the laws of this country would not allow one cruelty to be repaid by one of matching intensity and duration.

My argument is that these little cretins obviously have some deep, abiding character flaw that has driven them to this heinous act and there is no other way to treat them other than the dogs that they are. Take away the liberty and life they have endangered so ruthlessly. Unfortunately, they'll probably skate with the aid of some slick lawyer who will make sure they're tried as minors instead of adults.

There is no way to correct behavior so hideously, maliciously, thoughtlessly cruel. Six hours of torture upon a victim that was completely helpless. Six hours of beating and humiliation. The only way to amend their act is to eradicate them from the face of the earth and hope like hell they didn't reproduce prior to their sentence.

As to the Wikipedia link you so thoughtfully provided? It bears out my stance regarding punishment fitting the crime. The crimes committed are so grievous, as to be untreatable, uncouncilable, and totally against the good of society, that no other solution is applicable, despite whatever bleeding hearts may argue.

Morrigan - The snide commentaries are enough. I've never advocated making this into a prime time event worthy of family participation. What I do condone and heartily wish for is that the punishment fit the severity of the atrocity. Hence, the biblical reference. Nothing else will be satisfactory to pay their debt to society other than loss of their own lives.

Value of the death penalty. - Weigh against the few innocents unjustly incarcerated the costs of housing, feeding, securing and caring for all the lifers currently in the penal system. I find it a bargain. For all those not in favor of capitol punishment? I say *you* can foot those bills from now instead of the rest of the taxpayers.


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella



MissMorrigan -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 11:24:45 AM)

Bella, for goodness sake, lighten up, stop taking yourself so seriously, my comments were 'tongue-in-cheek', as were my previous comments regarding the WBC in reference to the biblical 'eye for an eye'. We have very differening viewpoints, which is fine, however, I don't feel defensive when someone disagrees with me and it's always good to hear others' viewpoints, even if they conflict with my own.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bella1965
Morrigan - The snide commentaries are enough. I've never advocated making this into a prime time event worthy of family participation. What I do condone and heartily wish for is that the punishment fit the severity of the atrocity. Hence, the biblical reference. Nothing else will be satisfactory to pay their debt to society other than loss of their own lives.



calamitysandra -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 11:33:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Would that be the Old Testament or the New?

Jeff


Only the Old!
The New has all that wishy-washy about forgiveness and such. And that would not be helpfull with validating the deathpenalty, now would it? [:'(]



Jeffff -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 11:38:02 AM)

Bella, I did read the original post. Once again you are some one willing to sacrifice an Innocent live for the greater good. I am not. It is as simple as that.
It is after all a message board. You gave as good as you got. I look forward to more..:)

Jeff

edited cuz I type like shit



domiguy -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 11:40:58 AM)

if you can't torture a retard who are you supposed to torture? I really don't see why all the outrage...I think retards dig this kind of shit...If they didn't why would they go and choose to be retarded? Duh!



Bella1965 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 11:43:40 AM)

G'afternoon all:


Morrigan - A bit late for you to back peddle now. Calling my opinion ignorant and uninformed was bad enough but coupled by labeling my reaction to being instructed on how to think or form a viewpoint as animalistic was uncalled for nastiness. There's nothing "tongue-in-cheek" about the arrows you slung at me.

When you can have the decency to treat another poster with the regard you'd like? Then I'll "lighten up". It has nothing to do with being defensive over a difference in the discussion; rather a point of etiquette which you seem incapable of grasping.


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella



Bella1965 -> RE: This kind of thing always makes me rethink capitol punishment (2/27/2008 11:48:13 AM)

G'afternoon all:


Jeff - A difference of opinions I can certainly live with. I don't wish to convert anyone. I'm simply a strong willed woman with very definite views. Thank you for the kudos.  [;)]


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella



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