RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain"

RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (Full Version)

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AtlantaMistress -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 12:28:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petdave quote: ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey And what do you think about this ridiculous "male subs at the bottom of the food chain" bullshit? i've said it myself more than once shrug A couple of points: Of the various D/s orientations, who is the most likely to have to pay to play? Male subs. i know, i know, supply and demand, etc. But what message does it send? That a male sub actually has negative value to the community- not even, certainly not positive, but negative- the only way to recover the time spent playing with them is through cash. If you spend any time browsing profiles on the other side, who do you most often see specifically mentioned as being unwanted, blocked, sent to junk mail, etc., usually in all capital letters? NO MALE SUBMISSIVES!!! At least those have been my observations... if anyone has seen differently, i'd be very interested to hear it! OK - there is a BIG difference between a truly submissive man and a "do me" bottom - the kind that are out there sending their cut and paste messages, trolling, and as a Pro Domme - I will say it - paying to play. I typically won't session with them, unless they are requesting an activity I particularly enjoy - but please, let's not get off topic and start yet another Pro Domme debate...[sm=horse.gif] As for those men that are truly submissive (at least IMHO of what that means: wanting to turn over power to a woman, and finding their happiness in serving her) they are actually not easy to come by as you may think.

LadyHathor -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 12:56:18 PM)
*I think anytime a group of people go against societal dictated norms, they become bottom feeders and get sniffed upon ( as I like to say)--I was a hippie and experienced similar degradation.* *It is however, IMHO how one carries themselves that matters.*

LadyPact -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 1:51:02 PM)
The 'bottom of the food chain' theory, as Lashara so elegently put it, is bullshit. I believe it's more the case of the stereotype of the submissive male taken to the extreme that's seen that way. Sure, I completely agree that there are reasons, and examples of why the stereotype if the weak, sniviling male submissive exists, but like most stereotypes of all walks of life, they are the extreme end of the spectrum, and not a good reflection of the general male sub population. I actually see this as the other way around. More that it's the weak minded and those not confident in themselves who play on this. Kind of like a bully in a schoolyard, the Doms who show submissive males the higher on the food chain attitude, really don't have their own confidence, so they have to make themselves bigger by attempting to make someone lesser. I'd also agree that some of this does stem from jealousy. Not so much that the majority of Dominant males want the attention of Dominant females (don't misunderstand that) but that there are some males that would want the attention of any female. There will always be a small portion of any group of humans that are jealous of those who have what they don't. The attitude spurs from envy. Now, let's get away from the stereotype, and on to something closer to reality. It takes a lot of strength and courage to be a quality submissive male. Most people I know in the lifestyle can recognize that and respect it.

ShaktiSama -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 2:01:52 PM)
Food chain metaphors are always dubious. I mean, if you really want to be at the TOP of the food chain, what do you eat? Filet o' vampire? [:'(] If I want to be at the top of the Domme Chain, whose ass do I spank? Dubya? The Pope? Regardless, people say that male subs are "plentiful", but it seems to me that quality men of any orientation might be the exception rather than the rule. And I would agree with those who say that there really are not a whole lot of quality men who are "submissive". What I see in great abundance are men who want to use women in various ways for their sexual pleasure--dom, sub, switch or vanilla. And while getting their own needs met, these men prefer to give as little back to their partners in the way of mutual pleasure, love, support or resources as humanly possible. Some of these men want to bottom in a BDSM scene, and call themselves "sub" for that reason. But I do not consider them submissive--or quality men, for that matter. I don't think that single males should be charged more than anyone else at a club, regardless of their orientation. I will say, though, that door policies are usually about the crowd you want to attract, and keeping them happy. If the "right" people vote with their feet when you let the "wrong" people in, the management quickly learns what they have to do to keep their intended customers happy. Ergo, perhaps there is something about having too many unattached "sub" males in the club that makes other customers uncomfortable.

slavekal -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 2:36:44 PM)
I don't feel that way. I realize that there are way more dominant ladies than submissive males around, but I definitely give no ground to dominant men.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 2:37:43 PM)
That's because you could kick their asses! <G>

darchChylde -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 2:52:22 PM)
The funniy thing is that i've been mistaken for a dominant several times when i've gone out.

Wickad -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 3:22:52 PM)
(fast reply) Greetings, Being that I am the person quoted in the OP .... lol..... I agree that many men who call themselves submissive are in fact do-me bottoms looking to get off on using women for their own pleasure. I believe that there are very few submissive men of quality. I, personally, want and am seeking a submissive man of quality to round out my life. I want to 'own' someone in the fullest sense, take care of him, make sure his needs are met, and hurt him in many, many, happy, fun ways. By doing these things I will be fulfilling my needs as a Dominant. I believe that quality submissive men are amazing and I have the utmost respect for them. I love a submissive man who is unable to be part of my home (long story) but I call him friend and confidant. He is one of the most beautiful people I have ever know. If you believe that submissive men within the context of this lifestyle and/or within the context of the larger society are seen as equal .... I think you really need to take off the rose coloured glasses. Vanilla men that I have spoken to about what I seek are disdainful and very derogatory about even the idea of male submission. The have told me that being submissive to a woman makes such men 'not men' and that they would never engage in such a dynamic. This same attitude is also pervasive with the vanilla women I've spoken to. They seem to want a 'real' man and see submissive men as being 'not real'. Within the context of this lifestyle, it has been my experience, that for all the lip service of 'we are equal', pansexuality, and acceptance, that there is always a little hint of 'submissive men as less'. These types of attitudes, generally (not by any means always), are pervasive through all roles and all genders. This sentiment may not be overt (patronizing comments, not taking seriously what is said, etc) or it may be overt (snubbing, rude and hostile comments, etc) but, in my opinion, it is always there. I have heard Dominant men and women, as well as submissive men and women, act this way towards male submission. This entire way of seeing our roles as men/women, Dominant/submissive is very disturbing to me. The value of a person seems to be equated with their role and gender. Being a Dominant man or a submissive woman is acceptable but being a Dominant woman or a submissive man is seen as aberrant. This is probably due in large part to gender stereotypes but .... I guess I believe we should be over this archaic attitude by now. We, as the human race, have traveled and lived in space, cured some awful diseases, and broken the sound barrier yet we cannot seem to accept the myriad of combinations of personal relationships. I constantly wonder why? I hope this post provokes a few questions itself. Wickad

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 3:34:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darchChylde The funniy thing is that i've been mistaken for a dominant several times when i've gone out. and that surprises you?

MistressTaboo -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 3:36:25 PM)
I for one like the strong confident men that no one would ever think they are submissive. The fawning 'i'm not fit to lick your boots' subs don't do anything for me...they don't respect themselves how can I respect them? I do know that any sub or Dom that treats my husband with anything less than respect is someone we don't hang out with much. My husband is a strong confident man. Top 10% of his profession. And as I point out all the time...He's not just anyone's slave...he's MY slave. A Dom that complains that he meets his eyes and treats him like an equal is going to be told he IS an equal. I always laugh cause I get these young male subs who come in telling me...I'm better at X than your husband...Or my favorite Don't you want some nice young stud? Hmmm My husband IS a nice young stud...he's 9yrs younger than me! The ones that come in respecting my marriage and respecting my husband as my partner and my choosen slave are the ones that get to stick around.

darchChylde -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 4:16:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus quote: ORIGINAL: darchChylde The funniy thing is that i've been mistaken for a dominant several times when i've gone out. and that surprises you? It always does when it's happening for some reason, but i understand it perfectly when i step out of the situation and reason it out.

machineman -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 9:45:24 PM)
I have only recently come to the realization that I am a submissive. I am not sure about others, but I don't find it belittling of myself. I don't define myself by my role in the scene, but by the qualities I know I posses as a man. For me it is very much about my feelings, but I am not a "do-me" sub. I have just found a strong need in myself to submit to a woman, and do whatever she needs. I am also finding I am very much into service. It just feels right to me to fill that role. It is like any relationship though where I am not just going to serve the first woman who asks. I need to find someone who has the right attraction, chemistry, and intelligence so that we fit each other. I know others are into humiliation and therefor fit the "lowest on the food chain" role, but that is their choosing. I want to go into a relationship as a equal, but to fit my role where I belong. As said in other posts I am a sub, but I may not be your sub. I have had great relations with all the different "types" in the clubs. I am a bit of a recovering dom though, and call myself a switch a bit still. I am seeing things from both sides, so I can relate. I am a bit of a toymaker which makes for an easy topic as everyone loves toys. At least from my experience the people I have met in the scene they have been some of the most open friendly people I know. I would care more about what the women wants anyways if i was to run into some negative reactions.

darchChylde -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 9:55:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: machineman I know others are into humiliation and therefor fit the "lowest on the food chain" role, but that is their choosing. I would just like to clarify that being into humiliation does not necessarily mean that you feel "less than" or even generally want to be treated as such. Humiliation, as often as not; in the D/s BDSM sense is generally limited to specific scenes and environments. Just as most of those who enjoy puppy play are often seen in clubs walking upright, talking, and drinking out of a glass or bottle; most of those into humiliation are not generally called needle-dick cum-buckets and seen to be rolling about in filth. These activities, like most of those in BDSM; are a part of a relationship more often they they represent the entirety of the relationship.

hopelesslyInvo -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/27/2008 11:00:01 PM)
submissive males being in higher supply than demand when compared to others sure, but "food chain" sounds just a bit off in comparison to me. and part of me feels jealous any time i see women and men together when i'm still alone, but i have to remember that while it may be the persons shoes i'd like to be in, it's not the person i'd like to be. even if it could be me getting all this attention and so forth though, the positive attention of women is of course very uplifting, but it is also conflicting to me and i feel uneasy by it and is still true even in mutual standpoints where i feel some degree of uncomfort, i try to overlook my own enjoyment so i can concentrate on meeting her own and not screw something up. even in vanilla land i couldn't get my body to act or do anything without going through a hellish screening process in my brain to figure out... will she like this? does she want that? is she waiting for me to do that? will she hate me doing this? will she pretend she doesn't mind if i do it? then with more clear cut "submission" i only become more torn in the answers, such as the concept with queening. it's not supposed to be done for my enjoyment, but how could i not enjoy it, even though i know i'm not supposed to, i'll feel afraid to enjoy it as to just make a mess of things. but at the same time i start thinking again... well is she enjoying this? or is she doing it more for me rather than herself? does she think i like it? does she think i dislike it? i don't understand how to feel or react when i'm trying to keep with my feelings to "do for someone else", but i am without doubt "getting" from it. my brain again wants to know, does she want me to enjoy it? should i show her i am enjoying it? or should i be disliking it? and should i make sure not to let her know it? how the hell did i get on this topic...? oh i remember~ basically i'd find myself jealous of any man who has what i do not, or cannot, but wish i did. i'd be just as jealous of the submissive in the example as i would a dominant man with 4 women smiling at his feet. but then i find it's not really the person i'm jealous of, it's not the attention they're getting i'm jealous of, it's not "who" the attention is from i'm jealous of, and i'm not jealous because i'm greedy, i'm jealous because i'm without, and for others it will be different. though if 4 women were "fawning" over me in the first place i could only hope they were into humiliation, because i'd be nothing but embarrassed and blushing to all hell from it. but i believe i have my head on straight and my heart in the right place, so if i'm at the bottom of the barrel, i don't believe it's anything to do with me being submissive; and since most women to my knowledge are not lesbians, i don't think being male is a ruiner of me either. even if i am at the very bottom, it's exactly where i want to be.

KindLadyGrey -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/28/2008 12:47:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hopelesslyInvo though if 4 women were "fawning" over me in the first place i could only hope they were into humiliation, because i'd be nothing but embarrassed and blushing to all hell from it. How to humiliate a sub: Pay attention to him. Why do we bother with all of these evil ideas when it's just that easy? [:D] Don't worry sweetheart, blushing is adorable whether a lady is into humiliation or not. I hope some day you find yourself in exactly such a situation and find out for yourself :) Although tangential, I don't think the rest of your thoughts and deliberations are that unusual for any thinking submissive. Regardless of a Lady's actual preferences in that regard, I'm pretty sure any female Dominant would be pleased that you are so self reflective.

rubberpet -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/28/2008 1:06:09 AM)
I certainly don't see myself as the at the bottom of the food chain and I could give two flying shits as to what a male dom thinks of me. If any dom has that notion, I'll be more than happy to put him in his proper place.[;)] I am certainly not ashamed of my submissive nature. In fact, I am very proud of it. I embrace it, and by doing so, I have the unlimited love and dominance of my gothic goddess. I have had the pleasure of being the center of attention to a group of dommes a few times in my life. The most recent was when I attended a birthday party for a domme friend. I was her pet for the night and was all decked out in full rubber from the neck down, per her request. As I sat by her side at the door while she collected the entrance fees, every domme that came in was fascinated with the rubber that encased my body. Everyone asked to touch my catsuit, but some took some liberties upon themselves and got quite a bit grabby with me. I felt like a piece of meat and I liked it! [:D] What is it about being surrounded by a group of devilish dommes who are thinking of numerous ways to have unlimited fun at your expense? I don't know, but it's a topic I'm happy to do further research on! [:D]

chezzy52 -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/28/2008 1:08:27 AM)
Lady Hathor..i doth protest!!I was a hippie once too..and now i want my hair back...LOL....All kidding aside and to all reading this,i had to laugh about really that Dominant males were calling us "bottom feeders".I say call me what you wish but this is like an old fashioned western movie in my eyes.The Dom males are the guys dressed in black and us "bottom feeders"are the ones with the white horse and crisp clean cowboy outfits topped off with a beautiful fedora.Now we do save the day and that gives the appearance that Dominas are in need but the bottom line is we still end up with the Domina at the end of the picture.If ya'll think this is skewered you should read my thoughts on the afterlife.And to be fair...i am sure that not all Dom males are like that and even more sure that Dominas are not in need of a sub..was just trying to make a comparison.

dublinsub -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/28/2008 1:54:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KindLadyGrey "This very attitude is also why many submissive men feel ashamed to be submissive and why many Dominant men think of submissive men as 'the bottom of the food chain'." Well I can only speak for myself. I am not in the slightest bit ashamed or even vaguely uncomfortable about the fact that my orientation is to be submissive to Dominant women. It is part of what I am. The views of Dominant men are of no real interest to me. dublinsub.

darchChylde -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/28/2008 2:12:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chezzy52 The Dom males are the guys dressed in black and us "bottom feeders"are the ones with the white horse and crisp clean cowboy outfits topped off with a beautiful fedora. i look absolutely ridiculous in a fedora, my friend. Can i wear my simple, clean black bandana?

SixFootMaster -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/28/2008 2:14:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama Food chain metaphors are always dubious. I mean, if you really want to be at the TOP of the food chain, what do you eat? Filet o' vampire? [:'(] If I want to be at the top of the Domme Chain, whose ass do I spank? Dubya? The Pope? Regardless, people say that male subs are "plentiful", but it seems to me that quality men of any orientation might be the exception rather than the rule. And I would agree with those who say that there really are not a whole lot of quality men who are "submissive". What I see in great abundance are men who want to use women in various ways for their sexual pleasure--dom, sub, switch or vanilla. And while getting their own needs met, these men prefer to give as little back to their partners in the way of mutual pleasure, love, support or resources as humanly possible. Some of these men want to bottom in a BDSM scene, and call themselves "sub" for that reason. But I do not consider them submissive--or quality men, for that matter. I don't think that single males should be charged more than anyone else at a club, regardless of their orientation. I will say, though, that door policies are usually about the crowd you want to attract, and keeping them happy. If the "right" people vote with their feet when you let the "wrong" people in, the management quickly learns what they have to do to keep their intended customers happy. Ergo, perhaps there is something about having too many unattached "sub" males in the club that makes other customers uncomfortable. Unfortunately, Shakti, the same is true in reverse.

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