RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (Full Version)

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wankerforuse -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/28/2008 10:30:01 PM)

I don't really care about what dominant men think of submissive men,they are allowed their opinion.It's just a shame it's the wrong one lol,im not at all interested in dominant men thankgod.As im a straight hetrosexual male,also im a submissive male and im very proud of that fact.And i realise only to well that Dominant ladies are very thin on the ground.So if i am lucky enough to srtike up a friendship or meet another Dominant lady oneday i will count my blessings.But im such a patient easy going type of a guy.That i can wait a lifetime for such things to happen.As you get nowhere in life by rushing things and that's a fact.



Dnomyar -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 6:27:35 AM)

Kirren you really need to work on making analogy's.



ShaktiSama -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 7:06:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster
Men don't need to lie to obtain sex either, so that point is inaccurate and moot.


Tell that to your culture, darlin'.  Not me.  Every other movie and television show I see is about male predatory sexual behavior--how to lie, deceive and manipulate in order to obtain sex.  Every other page of Maxim magazine and countless other "men's" publications drip with misogynistic "advice" about how to control women by means of money, emotional manipulation, and various kinds of dishonesty and bullying.

The idea that men should simply be good friends and knowledgable lovers is foreign to this society.  And it is the reason that so many men are so unhappy--no man can relate well to women if he regards them as a commodity, or as prey.

As for male subs being considered "the bottom of the food chain"--I would suggest that the societal attitude toward women is very much a part of this.  Our society regards women as being "below" men, so a person "below" women is obviously the lowest of the low!  Who is more a victim than the "victim of a victim"?  Who is more a slave than "the slave of a slave"?

Obviously I don't agree with this ideology, and neither do most male subs or female dominants.  But some people will never tire of trying to inflict their Gorean values on an unconsenting world.



SixFootMaster -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 3:15:31 PM)

Eh, I see just as much material demonstrating the deceptiveness of women in pursuit of sexual relations (Remember "Sex in the City", "Desparate Housewives"), likewise the "women's" publications like Cleo, Girlfriend, Cosmo, all drip with misandrist "advice" on how to control men with money, emotional manipulation and various kind of dishonesty. Almost without exclusion the situational comedy on TV places the man in the fools role and the woman as the intelligent capable one holding the family together despite the masculine bumbling and foolishness. Then of course there are all the day-time soaps written to cater pretty much exclusively to women and yet which manage to show them in just as bad a light as the men in their deceptive practices and evil deeds.

The rule here ? "Don't believe everything you read". In my part of the world, it is women that are most often the liars and cheats, adulterers, and it's the men that struggle to deal with it.

I'm sure you're not seriously suggesting that male supremacy is the result of Gorean beliefs - given that they have existed in one form or another through many of the greatest civilizations in Earth's history, and you know, the whole "Norman not being born until the 20th century" thing.

Edited to add: With the exception of soap operas and crime dramas, almost every television show, movie, etc, is afraid to show a woman in a bad light. It is considered fair play, however, to belittle and make fun of men in any of them.



ShaktiSama -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 3:22:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster
Eh, I see just as much material demonstrating the deceptiveness of women in pursuit of "sexual" relations (Remember "Sex in the City", "Desparate Housewives"), likewise the "women's" publications like Cleo, Girlfriend, Cosmo, all drip with misandrist "advice" on how to control men with (cosmetic surgery), emotional manipulation and various kind of dishonesty.


Could not agree more, especially with the slam of "Sex and the City".  I loathed that show from the first commercial.  Seeing those hideous things sit around a table laughing about an undersized diamond ring made me long for the weight of a Russian-made AK-47 in my hands.  And "women's" magazines are a joke.



GoodgirlFind -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 3:57:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

..... it is women that are most often the liars and cheats, adulterers, and it's the men that struggle to deal with it.





Yikes...erm....ahem... I feel scared for the women you dominate. Do they know your a misogynist?



SixFootMaster -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 4:02:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster
Eh, I see just as much material demonstrating the deceptiveness of women in pursuit of "sexual" relations (Remember "Sex in the City", "Desparate Housewives"), likewise the "women's" publications like Cleo, Girlfriend, Cosmo, all drip with misandrist "advice" on how to control men with (cosmetic surgery), emotional manipulation and various kind of dishonesty.


Could not agree more, especially with the slam of "Sex and the City".  I loathed that show from the first commercial.  Seeing those hideous things sit around a table laughing about an undersized diamond ring made me long for the weight of a Russian-made AK-47 in my hands.  And "women's" magazines are a joke.


And yet they are designed, edited, and run mostly by women allegedly for the promotion of womankind.

What makes you think males regard magazines published ostensibly for us as anything but light reading and not worthy of serious thought?

Six.

PS: Nearly missed the edit to my quote, tsk, funny but not what I said.




xoxi -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 4:05:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodgirlFind


quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

..... it is women that are most often the liars and cheats, adulterers, and it's the men that struggle to deal with it.





Yikes...erm....ahem... I feel scared for the women you dominate. Do they know your a misogynist?


Pointing out a fact doesn't attach any opinion or judgement value to that fact.

-The woman he has mastered



GoodgirlFind -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 4:08:01 PM)

Seriously...that's all I got....seriously



xoxi -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 4:10:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
Our society regards women as being "below" men, so a person "below" women is obviously the lowest of the low!  Who is more a victim than the "victim of a victim"?  Who is more a slave than "the slave of a slave"?


Actually it's interesting that you mention this because I thought the same thing when I skimmed the 'male wife' thread.  I wondered why it is that so many male subs, who venerate womankind in all its forms, seem to love the "humiliation" of being dressed like a woman, even to the extent of wearing a wedding dress at a ceremony to demonstrate that he is the submissive, "feminine" one in the relationship. The wife.

It confuses me that on one hand, woman is venerated as the Goddess, the Mistress, the eternal feminine life bringer, yet on the other hand every symbol of traditional femininity is considered a humiliation, a submission, and even a degradation.  It puts across the contradictory statement that "woman is superior, man is inferior, and to prove my inferiority I will adorn myself as a woman."



xoxi -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 4:13:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodgirlFind

Seriously...that's all I got....seriously


I suppose that the quote taken alone would be confusing, I myself had to ask him to clarify it because I've only lived here for a few months. But here in Australia the men are very straightforward - they won't cheat behind your back, they will tell you they arent' happy.  The women on the other hand are the ones who make 3 hour appointments with their 'personal trainer' then come home and tell the guy "I'm leaving you, you have until tonight to move out," and then going so far as to use the kids as leverage.

Obviously it's a stereotype and not all people conform to it, but what he was saying was a reflection of Aussie culture, and how it differs from American culture.  It does make a valid point though that stereotypes are far from universal, and sometimes in another part of the world, they turn into the polar opposite.



darchChylde -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 4:20:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
Our society regards women as being "below" men, so a person "below" women is obviously the lowest of the low!  Who is more a victim than the "victim of a victim"?  Who is more a slave than "the slave of a slave"?


Actually it's interesting that you mention this because I thought the same thing when I skimmed the 'male wife' thread.  I wondered why it is that so many male subs, who venerate womankind in all its forms, seem to love the "humiliation" of being dressed like a woman, even to the extent of wearing a wedding dress at a ceremony to demonstrate that he is the submissive, "feminine" one in the relationship. The wife.

It confuses me that on one hand, woman is venerated as the Goddess, the Mistress, the eternal feminine life bringer, yet on the other hand every symbol of traditional femininity is considered a humiliation, a submission, and even a degradation.  It puts across the contradictory statement that "woman is superior, man is inferior, and to prove my inferiority I will adorn myself as a woman."



i can only give a theory, as this isn't my kink; the only times i've dressed as a woman was for shits and giggles, and it wasn't humiliating so much as awkward.  i don't think the femeninity is the aspect that is considered humiliating, but the fact that women's clothes are made for a woman's body, which is quite a bit different in frame than a man's.  i don't think many men can actually pull off wearing women's clothes without it looking awkward.  Not to mention, in general; women have much more experience in wearing heels than the average man; and we all know how ridiculous you look in heels before you get used to them.



SixFootMaster -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 4:23:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodgirlFind

Seriously...that's all I got....seriously


I suppose that the quote taken alone would be confusing, I myself had to ask him to clarify it because I've only lived here for a few months. But here in Australia the men are very straightforward - they won't cheat behind your back, they will tell you they arent' happy.  The women on the other hand are the ones who make 3 hour appointments with their 'personal trainer' then come home and tell the guy "I'm leaving you, you have until tonight to move out," and then going so far as to use the kids as leverage.

Obviously it's a stereotype and not all people conform to it, but what he was saying was a reflection of Aussie culture, and how it differs from American culture.  It does make a valid point though that stereotypes are far from universal, and sometimes in another part of the world, they turn into the polar opposite.



A little clarification:

Australian men - while not universal - are very straight forward. We generally don't lie, or deceive - if we are going to cheat on you, it will be to your face, not behind your back. Women on the other hand are generally far more manipulative, deceptive and underhanded. It is common practice, for example, for a woman looking to leave her currently relationship or marriage, to lodge a bogus DVO (domestic violence order) so that when it comes time to divy up possessions (Australia recognizes defacto relationships) and award custody, she has a legal history to introduce against him. Women's counselors will in fact recommend this course of action despite the fact that the courts are heavily biased toward women in the first place. Women are also more likely to stoop to using the offspring as leverage to get what they want, and to attempt to "poison" the children of the relationship against the male.

The whole mentality is a one that you could copy word for word from a Cosmo guide on relationships - "take everything thats not nailed down, then blame the male"

Six.



hopelesslyInvo -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 4:29:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama
Our society regards women as being "below" men, so a person "below" women is obviously the lowest of the low!  Who is more a victim than the "victim of a victim"?  Who is more a slave than "the slave of a slave"?


Actually it's interesting that you mention this because I thought the same thing when I skimmed the 'male wife' thread.  I wondered why it is that so many male subs, who venerate womankind in all its forms, seem to love the "humiliation" of being dressed like a woman, even to the extent of wearing a wedding dress at a ceremony to demonstrate that he is the submissive, "feminine" one in the relationship. The wife.

It confuses me that on one hand, woman is venerated as the Goddess, the Mistress, the eternal feminine life bringer, yet on the other hand every symbol of traditional femininity is considered a humiliation, a submission, and even a degradation.  It puts across the contradictory statement that "woman is superior, man is inferior, and to prove my inferiority I will adorn myself as a woman."



some no doubt find it liberating.  but others i suppose may feel that despite putting women on a pedastal, being adorned as a female is a cut in pride to being a man, sort of a non acceptance.  to prove your "inferiority" as a man by dressing as a woman would seem to me like mocking who you are underneath the clothes.

humiliating to believe that you're not good enough as a male, humiliating that you can only pretend to be female, humbling if you are preferred this way.

but others do find it liberating, or just silly, or have a slew of other reasons.  this is simply my viewpoint.



HouseDV8 -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 4:50:23 PM)

i think that a male submissive, using my definition for submissive, is a very rare and special thing. The ones i have had the pleasure to encounter are fantastic, i love and adore them for their service and suffering.

Submissive as i define it: A person whos happiness/nirvana is found when they know deep down that they serve and please.

i think the guys that might have been being referred to as "the bottom of the food chain" are not submissives at all. They might be fetishists, or what a few people are calling "do me bottoms", or lonely bottoms, but to me, they are not any more annoying than the fetishist tops that are not what i would call Doms, or the strippers with whips that i would not ever call Domme. They should not be left out or discriminated against anymore than anyone else just because they are not my flavor. However they are participating is still legitimate and there are others out there that will enjoy their company, even if i would not.

However, whether or not they should pay more is a totally different question. Paying more is not discrimination, nor is it a way of saying someone is not welcome here. It is actually just a simple way of making sure that everyone contributes. The male bottom community, as so many have pointed out, is huge. As others have also pointed out, they are out-numbered. By paying more, they are contributing to the community in a way that otherwise they would not. What good does it do to have a ton of bottom males at a party/club when they are not going to be utilized...either for service or in a scene, which is entertaining and is why people come back again and again. If a male bottom volunteers his services in another way, he often does not pay at all. This is no different than a female bottom or Top getting in for free because she is really hot and watching her get scene encourages people to come back. She is contributing to the community. The bottom males being required to pay more ensures that the club can continue to grow and be popular and not overwhelmed with only one aspect of the community...and an aspect that is not contributing otherwise.

Bottom males that are part of a couple or more do not usually pay more. Only SINGLE bottom males pay more. I see this as being not only fair, but smart business.

The submisive men...they get snatched up pretty quick.




MollHackabout -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 4:52:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodgirlFind

Seriously...that's all I got....seriously


I suppose that the quote taken alone would be confusing, I myself had to ask him to clarify it because I've only lived here for a few months. But here in Australia the men are very straightforward - they won't cheat behind your back, they will tell you they arent' happy. The women on the other hand are the ones who make 3 hour appointments with their 'personal trainer' then come home and tell the guy "I'm leaving you, you have until tonight to move out," and then going so far as to use the kids as leverage.

Obviously it's a stereotype and not all people conform to it, but what he was saying was a reflection of Aussie culture, and how it differs from American culture. It does make a valid point though that stereotypes are far from universal, and sometimes in another part of the world, they turn into the polar opposite.



A little clarification:

Australian men - while not universal - are very straight forward. We generally don't lie, or deceive - if we are going to cheat on you, it will be to your face, not behind your back. Women on the other hand are generally far more manipulative, deceptive and underhanded. It is common practice, for example, for a woman looking to leave her currently relationship or marriage, to lodge a bogus DVO (domestic violence order) so that when it comes time to divy up possessions (Australia recognizes defacto relationships) and award custody, she has a legal history to introduce against him. Women's counselors will in fact recommend this course of action despite the fact that the courts are heavily biased toward women in the first place. Women are also more likely to stoop to using the offspring as leverage to get what they want, and to attempt to "poison" the children of the relationship against the male.

The whole mentality is a one that you could copy word for word from a Cosmo guide on relationships - "take everything thats not nailed down, then blame the male"

Six.



Well, I guess this explains why, comparatively, a high number of women are murdered by intimate partners in Australia. Aussie men are just fed up with their shenanigans! Surely there are no deeper gender relations at play than your opinion would suggest.



darchChylde -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 5:05:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HouseDV8

The submisive men...they get snatched up pretty quick.





So that's why i was snagged the first time i went to a local event?  Damn, and i thought it was because i was particularly tasty.  Hehe.

By the way, the wonderful Dominant woman who roped me in and took me home that night (mine, not Hers'; and just dropping me off so i wouldn't have to wait 2.5 hours until the first train in the middle of the night) and i have been together for 18 months now.



cloudboy -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 5:07:24 PM)


We went from "bottom of the food chain" to fashionably cool when Amayos crossed over. It was somewhat akin to Ringo Starr joining the Beatles or Reggie White joining the Packers.



ShaktiSama -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 5:15:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SixFootMaster
And yet they are designed, edited, and run mostly by women allegedly for the promotion of womankind.


Oh yes.  The promotion of womankind.

Interesting fact:  the majority of day-to-day discipline of Jews in concentration camps was handled by other Jews.  The Nazis picked out some "special" Jews, both in the ghettos and the camps, to help them control and slowly liquidate the others--they were called "kapos".  Kapos would receive all sorts of benefits in exchange for their cooperation in rounding up, terrorizing and murdering their fellow "untermenschen".  The best of these benefits, of course, was that they got to be the victimizers rather than the victims.  Many of them survived the Holocaust.

The women who "design, edit and run" magazines like Cosmo are essentially kapos.  They don't work for "womankind", they work for corporations and the patriarchal state.  Specifically, their magazines are built around advertisements for the corporations who profit by creating the maximum number of female consumers of beauty and diet products.  There are several multi-billion dollar industries which require a lot of female insecurity and unhappiness to maintain their profit margin.  Cosmo exists to keep their profits high.

As it so happens, women who cannot relate well to men and obsess 24/7 about their appearance make excellent consumers.  They buy a LOT of crap and tear their bodies and their lives apart, trying to make themselves happy.  And many of them are so desperate that they will believe almost anything.  Including that some incredibly generic artificial "sex tip" is going to "drive their man wild".  Or that the thing that keeps them from having a loving man in their lives is the lack of the matching accessories and a skinny enough ass.   [:'(]

Regardless, a "women's" magazine like Cosmo will never benefit if they help women form happy, long-lasting, mutually loving relationships with their own bodies OR with men.  Nor will they ever bother the pretty little head of a "smart, modern woman" with silly issues like their country being at war, or the degradation of their environment, the loss of their legal rights, or the need to exercise their right to vote.

All they have to do is keep women chasing their tails forever with bad romantic and sexual advice and hammer them with constant belittling of their appearance, and they're in the money.  Ja mein herr.  Seig heil.

By the same token, I think viewing "men's magazines" that teach men to hate, objectify and mistreat women as "light entertainment" is foolish.  A "men's magazine" is no more "light entertainment" than a woman's magazine is.  These magazines exist to teach men that women are either sexual objects or the enemy, to be despised and hunted down like animals.

As it so happens?  Unhappy men make fine consumers too.  There are many multi-billion industries which profit from the unfulfilled emotional needs and misery of men.

And so it goes.  [;)]

P.S.  On-topic?  Submissive men are incredibly hot and desirable.  I can't wait to have one of my own!  [:)]



Pyrrsefanie -> RE: Males subs are the "bottom of the food chain" (2/29/2008 5:36:36 PM)

Oh, what-EVER!  I think you've got a good point in stating it's probably jealousy... or just plain ignorance.

Part of the belief probably comes from the fact that men are viewed in a very dominant role by society, so to see a man taking the submissive side for himself immediately makes him appear weak or emasculated to people who accept this as "the way things are."

And for this reason I think it takes a rather impressively large set of balls for a man to submit... domination is somewhat expected, but to allow himself to be vulnerable enough to show his devotion to his dom/me in such a way... well, that's a pretty big "whatevah, whatevah, I do what I want!" in the face of society's standards of masculinity.

So hurray for male submissives.  Keep doing what you do.

...

or else.  ;D



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