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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 6:40:42 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Hi kittin. I think a lot of anger is directed at those that don't even try to get out of the hole they're in (if they even see it as a "hole"); should society be made to support those people?


It's not up to me to judge whether a person is in difficulty through some kind of moral flaw of his own. Who is anyone to judge? I shudder to think what would come of many of us should we get ill, loose our jobs and defaut on our rents or mortgages.


I see this as two different things; someone becoming ill isn't a "moral flaw". I was out of work for quite a long time, once, due to being injured, and I received public assistance. But I also fought tooth and nail to find a job.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 6:42:33 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lauren0221

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: PanthersMom

quote:

ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl

you win the longest profile award.


you aren't kidding!  well written and alot of thought put into it tho.  just had to perv it, willow's right, i've never seen one like it.

PM


Obviously you haven't read mine.


It's lucky I read fast:) Maybe you should cut out at least some of the details?


Oh, sure, call me long-winded......

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to lauren0221)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 6:43:53 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

Your comment made me perv You(again...whatever)


*grins*

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 6:45:16 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Padriag:

You can incarcerate them but you'd still foot the bill.

They don't care what you think.

They live from our refuse, the discarded laptops in the garbage, the daily waste from restaurants and grocery stores.

You're not in control and they don't care what efforts you make to exert control. Short of killing them in the streets, they will do exactly as they please.


(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 6:48:48 PM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
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quote:

 
SUMMARY: People with untreated psychiatric illnesses comprise one-third, or between 150,000 and 200,000 people, of the estimated 744,000 homeless population. The quality of life for these individuals is abysmal. Many are victimized regularly. One study found that 28 percent of homeless people with previous psychiatric hospitalizations obtained some food from garbage cans and 8 percent used garbage cans as a primary food source. 
* * *
In many cities such as New York, homeless people with severe mental illnesses are now an accepted part of the urban landscape and make up a significant percentage of the homeless who ride subways all night, sleep on sidewalks, or hang out in the parks. These ill individuals drift into the train and bus stations, and even the airports.
Many other homeless people hide from the eyes of most citizens. They shuffle quietly through the streets by day, talking to their voices only when they think nobody is looking, and they live in shelters or abandoned buildings at night. Some shelters become known as havens for these ill wanderers and take on the appearance of a hospital psychiatric ward. Others who are psychiatrically ill live in the woods on the outskirts of cities, under bridges, and even in the tunnels that carry subway trains beneath cities.
Hundreds of thousands of homeless have severe mental illnesses
  • Between 150,000 and 200,000 individuals with schizophrenia or manic-depressive illness are homeless among the 744,000 homeless population (total homeless population statistic based on data from a 2005 national survey). These 150,000–200,000 individuals are equivalent to the population of such cities as Dayton, Ohio;  Des Moines, Iowa; Fort Lauderdale, Florida; Grand Rapids, Michigan; Providence, Rhode Island; Richmond, Virginia; or Salt Lake City, Utah.

  • At any given time, there are many more people with untreated severe psychiatric illnesses living on America’s streets than are receiving care in hospitals. Approximately 90,000 individuals with schizophrenia or manic-depressive illness are in all hospitals receiving treatment for their disease.

  • The New York Times reported that in Berkeley, California, "on any given night there are 1,000 to 1,200 people sleeping on the streets. Half of them are deinstitutionalized mentally ill people. It’s like a mental ward on the streets 
  not everyone CHOOSES, one can't make a proper choice without a sound mind....

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 6:50:34 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp


  • not everyone CHOOSES, one can't make a proper choice without a sound mind....




Absolutely

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 6:51:05 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

 Is the Bible on your bookshelf ?


**Sending the pretty Kitten a kiss**
It's certainly on mine, and I have a couple of different versions.

I wanted to add, I only see a homeless book club as a positive event.
It is better than doing drugs, selling drugs, committing crimes, etc.
As someone who is a voracious reader myself  {spent several hours at the library today}...
reading could be a great START for many of those homeless people.
 
I have a T-shirt that says "Reading Road Trip", and reading can take you all over the world.

It can open doors for these people, help them learn to see possiblilites that they did not know
existed, help them gain some respect, self worth and maybe give them the inspiration and confidence to change their lives around.
I think this is marvleous.

Hopefully, at least some of their lives will be changed for the better!
Will Smith made a movie about a homeless man that went to the library, read books, and became a wealthy stockbroker.
Fucking A? imagine that
The Pursuit of Happiness

 The Pursuit of Happyness - Official Site 

< Message edited by MzMia -- 3/1/2008 7:03:49 PM >

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"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


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"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 6:52:23 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Well, that's Reaganomics at its worst right there.

Good "christian" right-wing values put the mentally unstable on the streets over 25 years ago. Apparently, it's what Jesus would have done...


(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 6:53:19 PM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

Your comment made me perv You(again...whatever)


*grins*
  "It's better to be looked over than overlooked"
~Mae West

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 6:57:07 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		[quoteWhat exactly is homeless? Define it. Almost everyone has somewhere they stay. They may not own it or have any legal right to it however... ]

Homeless to me means someone that has nowhere to go other than the streets.  Maybe you find something romantic about little, over-privileged assholes digging in garbage cans but I don't. 

quote:

A yippie is not a hippie. I don't see what you mean.


You are using semantics.  Yes they are the same thing. 

quote:


Yeah, some are well educated and from the middle-class. You admit that much and insist it's not a choice? It's not a political statement?


How many of these "revolutionaries" stay in that position?   How many of them live that way perpetually?  How is this any different than a Christian missionary living in a poor, African village for a year or two than going home to the comfort of their 5 bedroom house? 

quote:

I really couldn't say. But I doubt that your stats have any basis in reality. You might consider these sources:


My stats are not based on anything admittedly.  But, I seriously doubt that I am far off.  Most of the homeless people that I have encountered are either addicts, alcoholics, or crazies.  We used to have mental institutions to house people like this.  But the left-wing bleeding hearts ignored practicality and insisted we let these people out to their own devices. 

(in reply to SugarMyChurro)
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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 6:57:54 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Any of us could loose everything tomorrow and become homeless. It's easy for us, comfortably off, to pontificate about homeless people as if they were from a different specie.

The fact is that whilst some choose homeless life, many do not, and find themselves thrown into it. It's easy, to loose a job, and then a home. Without an address, good luck on finding a fucking job.

People are so ignorant, and so hopelessly judgemental.

You're right, people can lose their jobs and sometimes even their homes.  I should know, it happened to me.  That was about five years ago.  Today I own my own home.  I own a growing and thriving company.  I employ others, provide jobs, pay taxes, support several charities and I'm even growing my hair out extra long for the Locks for Love program.  And that's my point... I had a bad break in life that cost me a lot... virtually everything.  At the age of 35 I had to move in with my parents, which was humiliating.  I never asked anyone to support me, I never applied for any form of welfare.  I worked, I worked any job I could find... whether that was bailing hay on farm, or working for other painters for a fraction of what I was worth, or digging ditches, or building picnic tables to sell, or anything else I could come up with.  I never stopped trying to get myself out of the mess I was in... and after four years, I did.  At this point life is going pretty well, I make good money, I have a nice home, things are looking pretty good for my future.  I got here by my own hard work and ingenuity... and most of all, the fact I never stopped working at improving my own life.  If I couldn't find a job, I invented one, I found something to do... anything I could think of.

That's why it chaffes me so much to see someone who has no job, living on welfare and not trying.  I know where that leads, nowhere... they'll be there the rest of their lives and it'll ultimately be guys like me who end up supporting them through higher taxes.  Its unfair, its unconsenual, its a lot of things it shouldn't be.  I've all the patience in the world for someone who is trying... even if they keep screwing up, because I know eventually they'll get it right because they keep trying.  But someone who won't even try, that I just have no tolerance for at all.

And who am I to judge... first of all, I have a right to judge because my taxes are used to pay for this stuff... that gives me a right to judge, to have a say in how those taxes are spent.  That's something we all ought to be reminding the government of.  Secondly, I'm someone who's been there and back again.  I'm not someone looking down out of an ivory tower having never been "down there"... if I'm in a tower of any kind at all... its one I built stone by stone through my own hard work... and that gives me a lot of perspective.

Anyone can lose their job and their home... but anyone can also try to rebuild and start over... and keep trying.  I expect that much of people at least.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 7:03:02 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Homeless to me means someone that has nowhere to go other than the streets.  Maybe you find something romantic about little, over-privileged assholes digging in garbage cans but I don't.


Not romantic - political. You apparently find it "romantic."

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
How many of these "revolutionaries" stay in that position?   How many of them live that way perpetually?


I'm sure some do. Can you understand that these people are off the grid and therefore untrackable? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
How is this any different than a Christian missionary living in a poor, African village for a year or two than going home to the comfort of their 5 bedroom house?


That sounds like a very political thing to do, in both cases.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
We used to have mental institutions to house people like this.  But the left-wing bleeding hearts ignored practicality and insisted we let these people out to their own devices. 


That's a lie, and discussed above. Shame on you.



< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 3/1/2008 7:30:31 PM >

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 7:03:42 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

Your comment made me perv You(again...whatever)


*grins*
  "It's better to be looked over than overlooked"
~Mae West


God bless Mae West (and her gams).

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 7:23:04 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I've all the patience in the world for someone who is trying... even if they keep screwing up, because I know eventually they'll get it right because they keep trying.  But someone who won't even try, that I just have no tolerance for at all.

And who am I to judge... first of all, I have a right to judge because my taxes are used to pay for this stuff... that gives me a right to judge, to have a say in how those taxes are spent.  That's something we all ought to be reminding the government of.  Secondly, I'm someone who's been there and back again.  I'm not someone looking down out of an ivory tower having never been "down there"... if I'm in a tower of any kind at all... its one I built stone by stone through my own hard work... and that gives me a lot of perspective.

Anyone can lose their job and their home... but anyone can also try to rebuild and start over... and keep trying.  I expect that much of people at least.


Good post, Padriag.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 7:35:58 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Padriag:

You can incarcerate them but you'd still foot the bill.

True, but I'm also a firm believer in chain gangs... and we do have them around here.  Its not just three hots and a cot... one way or another they're getting a job, whether they like it or not.  In fact, there's been some discussion at the state level of contracting prisons out to private companies.  Golly.... I might ought to consider that as a new business venture... and yes, I am an evil bastard... and I enjoy it!

quote:

They don't care what you think.

ROFL... I think you miss two important points.  First, I don't care what they think, or even whether they care what I think... they don't get a vote.  Second, I have the gold, I make the rules.  There have been a few, including one bum I gave a job too, who thought they could do whatever they wanted... and found out the hard way they were wrong.  Slowly, I'm changing things in this town.  Admittedly they're small changes so far, but everything has to begin somewhere and most often it isn't big.  But things are changing... and I'm a very patient and a very stubborn man... not really someone you'd want for an enemy.

quote:

They live from our refuse, the discarded laptops in the garbage, the daily waste from restaurants and grocery stores.

I doubt there are any discarded laptops around here, not in this lil town.  But yes, there are plenty of people around here who live off garbage... not to mention the soup kitchen that will hand out a free meal to anyone... even lawyers.  If that's how they want to live, fine with me... less crap for the land fill which means less expense.  I say we organize these human garbage disposals and put them to good use!  What, they don't like that... fine, go to prison, join the chain gang... and get yourself a dirty job... (tip o the hat to Mike Rowe, where ever you are. LOL)

quote:

You're not in control and they don't care what efforts you make to exert control. Short of killing them in the streets, they will do exactly as they please.

You know, I get that you sincerely believe I'm not in control... and if you mean the country in general, sure.  But there are more than a few people in this lil town that'd disagree with you.  Largely because they've felt me exerting my Will over them, whether they liked it or not... and found out that when I put my mind to getting something done there's damn little you can do to stop me... I tend to get my way.

So they don't care what efforts I make to exert control... well... that's only true until I really make an effort... again, ask those who've already felt my growing influence around here.  I want a street light fixed... it gets fixed.  I want a parking area created... it gets created.  I want junk cars towed... they get towed.  I want increased police presence to discourage drug dealing... there's a police car parked there suddenly.  I want a building cleaned up... it either gets cleaned up or sold to me and I clean it up.  Squatters in the park... not anymore.  Prostitutes on the corner... not anymore.  As I said... you may not be in  control, others may not be in control... but there are some bums, drug dealers and rednecks in this lil town that'd tell you right off that I definitely have some control here!

And so far as killing them in the streets... well... not in the streets, but given the laws, there are cases where I could get away with it... and to be frank.... I would.  Like I said, I'm not really someone anyone wants for an enemy... unless of course you actually do have a death wish.

When I came to this lil town, I heard a lot of attitudes like yours, that there was nothing that could be done.  That the drug dealers ran the town.  That the police and the town council wouldn't do anything.  That nothing was going to change, except that it would get worse and there was no point in trying.  Obviously I didn't listen to any of that.  As usual, I did things my way and continue to do so.  Oddly enough, things are changing... and for the better.  The drug dealers hate me... but there's not much of anything they can do about it... not only do I have the police backing me... but I'm just plain meaner than they are.  The police and town council are doing things... mostly they just needed some leadership, someone with some kind of answers... that turned out to be me.

I still haven't worked out exactly what to do about the welfare abuse... personally, I'd like to cut most of it off... but that's still a little out of my reach... for now.  But there is always more than one solution to a problem and I'm sure there's more than one solution to this one.  I just need to ponder it a bit... it'll come to me eventually... and when it does, there will be some more change coming.

And no... I really wasn't kidding on my profile when I claimed to be dominant.  

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 8:13:54 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I've all the patience in the world for someone who is trying... even if they keep screwing up, because I know eventually they'll get it right because they keep trying.  But someone who won't even try, that I just have no tolerance for at all.

And who am I to judge... first of all, I have a right to judge because my taxes are used to pay for this stuff... that gives me a right to judge, to have a say in how those taxes are spent.  That's something we all ought to be reminding the government of.  Secondly, I'm someone who's been there and back again.  I'm not someone looking down out of an ivory tower having never been "down there"... if I'm in a tower of any kind at all... its one I built stone by stone through my own hard work... and that gives me a lot of perspective.

Anyone can lose their job and their home... but anyone can also try to rebuild and start over... and keep trying.  I expect that much of people at least.


Good post, Padriag.


I disagree. It's not a good post, it's me me me post. Perhaps Padriag didn't sink low enough that his compassion button got hit. I wish for nobody to found themselves without a roof over their head; and I'm happy to pay for the miserable portion of tax revenue that is spent on welfare, ie. fuck all.



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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 8:27:42 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

If I was a homeless book I would dream of a shelf to live on and a book end to lean on. I would love someone to finger my pages if I was a homeless book. Alas no I’m not a homeless book but someone that enjoys personification of books.


While I have a shit load of books...............I can make room for more......I am just that kinda guy

Jeff


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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/1/2008 11:59:01 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Well, I don't donate books but I donate money to homeless shelters to keep them going.
I have for years. I don't like to see people homeless or hungry in this country.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 1:35:29 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Wow...

I have directed a homeless shelter for women and children, that had a men's division.  Most of the men were vets from VN and the others were often addicted to something or ill.  The women were mostly coming out of domestic abuse, were ill and then were addicts of something, including love.  I saw people from all walks of life and all types of situations.  Some people had no where to go and no family.  Many were hard working and just could not afford to support children that had father's who abandoned them.  Homelessness is not an easy to define situation, as it involves many, many things.

I went from directing a homeless shelter to needing one.  I knew the programs out there.  I knew how to work.  I just became ill and was left as a single parent to three.  I did have some time on welfare, but for the most part did all I could to not be dependent upon the American tax payer.  I cannot work and will never work again unless it is from home.  I do not live on the tax payers and I support a brain damaged son who is not getting anything for support at this time. I had a business until 911 and have struggled ever since.

When I went on my speeches, I asked one question that made people really stop and think.  How close to homelessness are you?  What would it take and how long would it take to get you to the point of homelessness?  Most answered within six months and many within a month.

Without addressing the issues of homelessness and without knowing the system, I find that it is really hard to know exactly why things are the way they are.  To judge it in anger from only one view isn't a fair evaluation of a serious social problem.  

Anyone can become homeless for a number of reasons.  If you are one of the people that finds yourself in the position of homelessness even if it is temporary, I hope that you are not judged unfit for air.  I would hope that you could be lucky enough not to fall so far down that no employer would consider you, no landlord would think you unfit and society wouldn't spit on you. 

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 1:47:51 AM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
In fact, there's been some discussion at the state level of contracting prisons out to private companies.


This is done at the federal and state level in many cases already. I consider it a great evil, but I am willing to agree to disagree on that point. And that's for actual criminals. But people that may be living off the land and otherwise making use of resources that are free to anyone haven't really committed any crimes have they?

What gives you any more right to community owned resources, or to say what happens to them, or how they are shared out?

You haven't thought this through at all. You are passing through life, you own nothing. You are standing on the shoulders of giants in every aspect of your life. You did not create civilization from scratch. You just have a big head about this stuff.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
... they don't get a vote.  Second, I have the gold, I make the rules.


They may or may not have a vote - that's not up to you.

Funny thing about that gold: a man with a lot to lose should have a healthier respect for those with nothing to lose.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
I say we organize these human garbage disposals and put them to good use!  What, they don't like that... fine, go to prison, join the chain gang... and get yourself a dirty job...


What is the crime? They don't have to do what you say. See above about people with nothing to lose.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
I want increased police presence to discourage drug dealing... there's a police car parked there suddenly.  I want a building cleaned up... it either gets cleaned up or sold to me and I clean it up.  Squatters in the park... not anymore.  Prostitutes on the corner... not anymore.  As I said... you may not be in  control, others may not be in control... but there are some bums, drug dealers and rednecks in this lil town that'd tell you right off that I definitely have some control here!


I guess this depends on scale. You are acting like you own this little town. It also comes off as mere puffery and self-delusion.

Real drug dealers have a stake and have a way of turning things their way. And they wouldn't be in the mold of homeless types - they'd be more like you, interested in their own gain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
When I came to this lil town, I heard a lot of attitudes like yours, that there was nothing that could be done.  That the drug dealers ran the town.  That the police and the town council wouldn't do anything.


You assume many things not in evidence in this discussion.

On some level demand will create supply. The more you hinder that process the more likely it will be the case that someone will want to remove the hindrance to what they see as their commercial interests.

Right now you may be a squeaky wheel that gets some grease and some accommodation. But I doubt you are running anyone out of town. Drug money can squash you and if you don't recognize that, you're not being realistic.

You would seem to want to personally take on both people with a stake and people that have nothing at all to lose. At some point you will rub someone the wrong way and pay the price for it.

In a small enough place maybe you can survive with such an attitude, but if it's much bigger than that you will soon discover that others feel they have a right to the way they live just as much as you feel justified in what you do. You seem willing to use force to get your way, they will use force to get their way too.

That's the way of the world.

< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 3/2/2008 1:52:17 AM >

(in reply to Padriag)
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