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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 8:49:06 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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inter alia

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 8:50:11 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Errare humanum est  .


Hmmmmmmmmm.... no habla englaise, huh?  Can get you a job chopping cabbage, best we can do for you right now.

Ron


Celerius quam asparagi cocuntur.



Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur.

We have all been here before. It's like deja vu.

Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'...........



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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 8:51:54 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Errare humanum est  .


Hmmmmmmmmm.... no habla englaise, huh?  Can get you a job chopping cabbage, best we can do for you right now.

Ron


Celerius quam asparagi cocuntur.



Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur.

We have all been here before. It's like deja vu.

Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'...........




Yes, and look at the wealth of good it's done us.
 
Just ask Steve Perry....

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 8:54:57 AM   
lronitulstahp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Errare humanum est  .


Hmmmmmmmmm.... no habla englaise, huh?  Can get you a job chopping cabbage, best we can do for you right now.

Ron


Celerius quam asparagi cocuntur.



Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur.

We have all been here before. It's like deja vu.

Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'...........


All this Latin is turning me on...i don't do chicks...but damn kitten! *purrrrr*

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 8:58:32 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

Wow...

I have directed a homeless shelter for women and children, that had a men's division.  Most of the men were vets from VN and the others were often addicted to something or ill.  The women were mostly coming out of domestic abuse, were ill and then were addicts of something, including love.  I saw people from all walks of life and all types of situations.  Some people had no where to go and no family.  Many were hard working and just could not afford to support children that had father's who abandoned them.  Homelessness is not an easy to define situation, as it involves many, many things.

I went from directing a homeless shelter to needing one.  I knew the programs out there.  I knew how to work.  I just became ill and was left as a single parent to three.  I did have some time on welfare, but for the most part did all I could to not be dependent upon the American tax payer.  I cannot work and will never work again unless it is from home.  I do not live on the tax payers and I support a brain damaged son who is not getting anything for support at this time. I had a business until 911 and have struggled ever since.

When I went on my speeches, I asked one question that made people really stop and think.  How close to homelessness are you?  What would it take and how long would it take to get you to the point of homelessness?  Most answered within six months and many within a month.

Without addressing the issues of homelessness and without knowing the system, I find that it is really hard to know exactly why things are the way they are.  To judge it in anger from only one view isn't a fair evaluation of a serious social problem.  

Anyone can become homeless for a number of reasons.  If you are one of the people that finds yourself in the position of homelessness even if it is temporary, I hope that you are not judged unfit for air.  I would hope that you could be lucky enough not to fall so far down that no employer would consider you, no landlord would think you unfit and society wouldn't spit on you. 


Thanks for the informed input and for dispelling some myths.

Hey compassionate conservatives....What about homeless UMs?

How do you justify leaving them in the cold?

(in reply to Lockit)
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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 8:58:34 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Quo usque tandem abutere, SL4V3, patientia nostra?


et nunc et semper

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Memory Lane...been there done that.

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 9:00:24 AM   
liketophoto


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As the french say "Wee Wee"

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 9:08:10 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Hi Level, the point I was trying to make is that while that's just one group of people we can feel 'deserve' all the support/assistance we can provide, there will be other groups and unless people are deliberately trying to defraud the benefit system, I personally feel they are no less deserving of assistance, whether that be financial assistance or helping them gain the necessary skills to help increase their opportunities.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Hi Morrigan  Anyone serving in the military deserves assistance getting back on their feet, if needed. Certainly, if they have been traumatized by being exposed to warfare. I wasn't speaking about them (and I'm not at all sure Padriag was, either, but obviously, he can speak for himself).



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A free society is a society where it is safe to find one's self unpopular and where history has shown that exceptions are not that exceptional.

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 9:13:00 AM   
kittinSol


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Meow.

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 9:18:09 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

But Level, who are these people unwilling to help themselves? Where are they? How many of them do you know? I never came across any of them, so I must be lucky. Yet I hear about these supposed lazy sods all the time, a phenomenon particularly cherished by Fox news and its ilk.

Who will judge whether someone is "unwilling" or "unable"? Where is the line? You show it to me, I'm curious to see it.


I've known a hell lot more than I've wanted to. And they aren't mentally ill, or crippled.
 
I have a feeling it isn't luck that's prevented you from meeting any, but a soft heart, and an eye not critical enough.  Part of that was actually meant as a compliment, by the way.
 
Who will judge? There's the hard part. The folks that have to okay assistance to those asking for it, should, and do, judge. But they are too often overworked, I'm guessing, if so, then spend the money and effort to correct that.
 
Where is the line? Again, this is where words on the screen don't do justice to the enormity of the situation. If someone is asking for help, then as long as they make an honest effort to get on their own feet, they should recieve that help. If they don't, and do not have a valid reason for not doing so, then they've made their own bed, haven't they?
 
And let me ask one more time: Why is having an expectation for someone on public assistance to work to get off said assistance uncompassionate?




As no one is willing, or able to answer the question, I'll do it myself: it isn't.
 
Edited to add: Katy answered it earlier.

< Message edited by Level -- 3/2/2008 9:40:22 AM >


_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Level)
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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 9:19:35 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Hi Level, the point I was trying to make is that while that's just one group of people we can feel 'deserve' all the support/assistance we can provide, there will be other groups and unless people are deliberately trying to defraud the benefit system, I personally feel they are no less deserving of assistance, whether that be financial assistance or helping them gain the necessary skills to help increase their opportunities.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Hi Morrigan  Anyone serving in the military deserves assistance getting back on their feet, if needed. Certainly, if they have been traumatized by being exposed to warfare. I wasn't speaking about them (and I'm not at all sure Padriag was, either, but obviously, he can speak for himself).




I think we agree, then, Morrigan.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to MissMorrigan)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 9:37:59 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

who are these people unwilling to help themselves? Where are they? How many of them do you know? I never came across any of them, so I must be lucky.




            Yes, Kitten, you must be lucky indeed.  This gives your compassion a foundation of ignorance. 


        I like that we have a safety net, I'm completely ok with somebody spending a summer camping and fishing on unemployment benefits.  Some people are never going to get back on their feet and I don't want to be part of a society that abandons them. 

       Those who want to keep gaming the system forever are the problem. 

       Just to add to the problem, because our welfare system grew out of the same sort of compassionate ignorance of reality you expressed above, we wound up creating a culture of dependence and entitlement as a side-effect.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 9:58:18 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

who are these people unwilling to help themselves? Where are they? How many of them do you know? I never came across any of them, so I must be lucky.




           Yes, Kitten, you must be lucky indeed.  This gives your compassion a foundation of ignorance. 



Call me what you like, it obviously makes you as disinformed as I am, since you're unable to give me concrete examples of what you're talking about  .

Since we both know where the other is arguing from, I don't see the point of your above post... unless you wanted to add a little stir to the proverbial pot.

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 10:19:55 AM   
rook42


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Charity: helping another human being by choice

Some forms of public assistence have positive externalities that help everyone, many times more than the cost of the input, and would be impossible to implement without state intervention due to organizational scope/cost(eg. education, training, public transit, i'd argue better infrastructure for abortions but that's a tangent :) ).

Other forms of assistance:
Nonconsensual charity, where you do not have the option of verifying the need of the recipient or the benefits of giving. Not safe, sane, consensual, or RACK for that matter. No, you can't have risk assessment without a direct mechanism for gathering information; it's like trying to whip someone with earplugs and a blindfold(on you, not them). Put mandatory drug testing on a welfare check, and this might be less apt. This might be specific to Michigan; I honestly havent personally seen how bad the drug problem is in other states. Yes, drugs and alcohol are a choice too. Interesting law popping up- http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/politics&id=5973130

Now, there is unequal opportunity in our country due to the distribution of wealth and availability of education. That having been said, many people in our country are unrealistic in the way that they perceive the world. Unless we want to take away heritability, there's no moral way to distribute wealth. Really, the key is education- and the problems that I've seen in our educational system are NOT just oppression or regional schooling, they're with the culture as well. Think about your own experiences during secondary education: on average, it's politically correct to make fun of a child/peer for aptitude or overachievement, but not for being lazy or slow with their schoolwork.

The school that I went to as a child was free and public, with the stipulation you must either pass a simple math test or take a remedial course the summer before enrollment. The school almost got torpedoed, because it was argued to be an elitist system, despite the fact that ANYBODY could get in and get the same quality of education. There were quite a few students from low income areas that got a pretty darn good education there too- the ones who were willing to spend a month or so getting to the same upper level math skills. Now, in this case(yes this is an odd example- not all areas are blessed with a school like this), the education was freely available, and very few grabbed the opportunity due to the very small extra expenditure in effort it would require.



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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 10:24:44 AM   
TheHeretic


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        What sort of "concrete examples" are you looking for, Kitten?  I'm sure the slightest effort on your part to educate yourself beyond a bleeding heart knee jerk reaction would generate just as many google hits on your computer as mine.  I wonder if Google Street went through the parking lot outside the welfare office around the first of the month?

       You wish to justify your ignorance by accusing me of it?  Pop quiz.  A man without medical insurance breaks his foot and is unable to work.  Please explain which governmental jurisdiction would handle the assistance he receives.  Extra credit for knowing it matters if this happened on or off the job.  I'll even make it multiple guess.

A:  Federal
B:  State
C:  County
D:  Local/City
E:  Funded NGO


     

       

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 10:29:52 AM   
bipolarber


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I actually find it rather hopeful that we live in a society where even the folks on the bottom rung of the ladder CAN read. When I hear stats on how 40% or more kids graduating high school can't even read on a fourth grade level, it gives me the shudders. Considering this is probably the first time in history that education has been so universal, and books so plentiful, it hardly surprises me. Besides, I'd rather they be reading books than doing drugs or knifing each other over a Snickers bar, or a pint, in a back alley somewhere.


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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 10:53:41 AM   
domiguy


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I know this is supposed to be about the homeless...But the conversation has managed to get bogged down into the aspect of entitlements and aid.

The problem is so deep that it is impossible to find the answer. We are in deep deep doo doo as a nation. It is not a Repub or a Dem problem. I have never been "ascared" (Remember I'm a product of a public education system gone awry) of the terrorists...As I look across this great land ours many of our problems stem from one area...It is a lack of a consistent and enforced education policy.

We spend billions of dollars over the fact that 3,000 were killed on 9/11...3,000 is a drop in the bucket when we look at how many people we flush down the toilet by not providing a top tier "national" education system.

We are fucking ourselves....with 1 out of 100 males incarcerated...The homeless, those on aid and overall losing our competitive edge to lesser countries that provide a top flight education.

There are many problems that need to be worked out...Forcing parents to take an active enough role to at least get their kids to school and then have enough compassion to have an interest in that child's success.

I really do believe that it is time to consider an amendment to gaurantee an equal and strong education to every child in this country. The well of problems is vast. I would consider jumping to the other side of the aisle to make sure that parents are "forced" to do their part. We are killing our kids with a malaise and an apathy when it comes to providing them with the tools that could lead to a bright future and then we wonder why we have to take care of them when they become adults.

If the choice were to ocassionally have terrorists brandishing ball bearing vests running into our public facilities or slowly killing our kids with an education track that leads to nothing....Bring on the vests...At least the end will come quick.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/2/2008 10:55:19 AM >


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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 10:56:31 AM   
domiguy


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Oh yeah...If I were a homeless book I would be covered in poo and puke.

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 10:56:40 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

When I went on my speeches, I asked one question that made people really stop and think.  How close to homelessness are you?  What would it take and how long would it take to get you to the point of homelessness?  Most answered within six months and many within a month.

I'd say if people were really being honest, most would have to answer a month.  That's because most people live paycheck to paycheck.  I have one employee I'm working with now trying to teach him to manage his money better.  Its been infuriating at times.  He came to me a few weeks ago and asked for an advance on his paycheck to buy groceries, which surprised me because he'd just gotten paid.  Seems on his way home that Friday he stopped at the liquor store and blew his entire paycheck.  I'm still wondering if I can help this guy.  When you can get him to work on time he's a good worker and has some raw talent in carpentry and as a decorative painter.  But he can't stay off the phone, misses days of work, and doesn't know the first thing about managing his money.  Still, I'm trying to give the guy a chance at least as far as I can afford too.  I've seen too many people just like him, poor work habits, no money managing skills, no savings of any kind.  They have to have all the cable channels, they've just got to have that new car, they really have to have a case of beer every night... and then wonder why they can't afford their mortage or groceries.

quote:

Anyone can become homeless for a number of reasons.  If you are one of the people that finds yourself in the position of homelessness even if it is temporary, I hope that you are not judged unfit for air.  I would hope that you could be lucky enough not to fall so far down that no employer would consider you, no landlord would think you unfit and society wouldn't spit on you. 

Yes they can... its not so much someone being homeless or jobless that bothers me.  Its the ones that seem content to stay there, who won't try.  Here's another problem I've had to deal with.  I hired a guy who was homeless.  He was living in a motel in a room the town had paid for.  With him were his girlfriend, their baby, a pit bull and a cat.  The guy needed a job and so I took a chance and gave him one.  When he got kicked out of the motel, I let him move into a spare bedroom of my home.  I never asked them to pay me any rent, or help with the utilities or groceries... all I asked was that they work to get on their feet.  Later I helped them buy a car... well, actually I bought the car and let him work off what it cost over a couple of months.

In the end I discovered he was stealing from me, causing trouble with other employees, they nearly wrecked the spare room, never helped clean the rest of the house... they got another dog and brought it into my home without asking, and then, when I confronted them about it, he threatened me in a drunk rage.  Needless to say he was fired and kicked out that same night.  Since they'd stayed here more than two weeks, technically... and because of a very stupid law... he could have forced me to let him stay up to 30 days more while I would have to go through an eviction process.  Fortunately my Irish temper can be a lil intimidating... that comes in handy sometimes and they decided it'd be best if they just left.  But it wasn't the threats, the stealing, or the damages to my home that bothered me most.  What really upset me was when they packed to leave he was sure to get his beer and the dog food for the pitbull... but later when I went to clean up the kitchen I found two cases of babyfood they'd left behind, plus half the baby bottles... just sitting there in plain sight.  I think if he'd come back that night I'd have shot them both... it might have been worth it... at least then maybe some decent people could adopt that baby and give it a better life... as it is... it really upsets me to think about it even know.  That lil baby girl is the biggest victim of all, the biggest innocent... and she doesn't stand a chance.  And because of people like that I'll never offer anyone that much help again... which is sad really, because that may mean that one day someone who really needs it won't get it.

The biggest problem I have with the welfare system in America... are all the people who abuse it.  They drain it of the very resources... and compassion... others who genuinely need it should get, but perhaps won't.  You are very right, anyone can lose their job and become homeless, as I well know.  Some will try to get up again, to do something with themselves... just as you did, and as I have done, and as others have done.  But then there are those who walk around acting as if they're entitled to a free ride from society, to be able to take whatever they want... and I just have no tolerance for such people.

Anyway, I have company arriving, a beautiful day outside to enjoy along with what's left of my weekend.  So this will probably be my last post on the topic.  Thanks for an interesting thread Level... kinda gave me a chance to vent about some things that have been on my mind lately.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: The Homeless Book Club - 3/2/2008 11:05:18 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

We are killing our kids with a malaise and an apathy when it comes to providing them with the tools that could lead to a bright future and then we wonder why we have to take care of them when they become adults.


DG, I would add that we're killing our society with a malaise and apathy when it comes to discipline and expectations, regarding our children, and ourselves.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 100
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