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How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 5:36:06 AM

Muttling

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They've complained about Sea Shepard throwing ACID......OMG......ACID at their whaling crews. Well, butyric acid which is what causes rotten butter to stink, but it really IS ACID.

In the mean time, they're hauling in a Minke whale and her calf for processing. Whaling is bad enough, but killing calves instead of limiting it to the adult population???

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,334533,00.html

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 5:40:38 AM

meatcleaver

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Telling the Japanese they can't eat whale is like telling Americans they can't eat beef.

I have to admit I'm against whaling as well as many other human activities that are depleting the natural world but on this issue, we in the west are just being hypocrites as usual, always willing to see people with different cultures being somehow immoral without looking at ourselves, the biggest culprits at over harvesting the planet.

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 5:45:03 AM

Sanity

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There's nothing wrong with throwing acid at people, but harvesting animals is unacceptable.

Hmm...

< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/3/2008 5:46:21 AM >

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 6:12:39 AM

pahunkboy

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Why would anyone want a whale?

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 7:07:59 AM

HandSolo

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They eat them, it's apparently excellent meat. I've heard arguments that minke whales are pretty much like ungulates, intelligence-wise, and have a sustainable population. I'm not in favor of whaling in general, but I'm willing to listen to reasonable arguments.

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 7:10:30 AM

CuriousLord

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Food,
Oils in its body for various products,
Bones.

Maybe more stuff? I imagine they try to make use of most of it since they're probably not that easy to find.

Organsims are complex chemical reactions. In the case of whales, they're huge, complex chemical reactions. Inside of that huge, complex reaction are enough various chemicals to make it economically feasible to go whaling.

But, yeah, I think it's pretty messed up what the whalers are doing. The protesters are trying to make a point against what they see as a henious injustice, but I'm afraid that there's just not much they can do to make the point sufficiently. Those workers likely see what they're doing as their only real way to get by, as their job.. and that they can't just give it up. So hopefully the protesters are moreso targetting the industry than the particular whalers. Not that the whalers are innocent, though.

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 9:54:05 AM

Muttling

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Japan actually claims they're doing it for "research purposes", but they sell the meat to their citizens. They are the ONLY country in the world that conducts whaling other than some native populations that do so for cultural preservation reasons and kill 2 or 3 per year.   The Alaskan inuits are the one that comes to mind, but there are a few others who do so as well.

A great many countries have decried Japan's whaling operations. This year Japan plnned to kill 935 minkes, 50 fin whales, and 100 hump back whales.  Thanks to international pressure, we got them to take the humpbacks on the list.

I don't have a problem with hunting a sustainable population, but I disagree with the harvesting of juveniles such as the calf shown in the picture that was part of the article I linked.   I also disagree with the question of whether or not it is an appropriate time to begin harvesting minkes.   Fin and humpbacks should be pretty danged obvious, the populations are not ready to support harvesting.

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 9:59:23 AM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

They've complained about Sea Shepard throwing ACID......OMG......ACID at their whaling crews. Well, butyric acid which is what causes rotten butter to stink, but it really IS ACID.

In the mean time, they're hauling in a Minke whale and her calf for processing. Whaling is bad enough, but killing calves instead of limiting it to the adult population???

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,334533,00.html

My question is how an organization like the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society can defend hurling chemicals at HUMANS to further their HUMANITARIAN agenda. That's kinda like bombing an abortion clinic to save the unborn babies.

If I was the captain of the Japanese boat, I'd have turned and rammed through those lil' punks. They want to start a fight with a ship on the open sea? Let 'em swim back to shore.

(in reply to Muttling)

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 10:40:27 AM

Muttling

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Chemicals?????   You need to improve your reading comprehension skills.   It was spoiled butter.

On a side note, turning to ram the Sea Shepherd's ship would have been insanity for any of the clumbsy vessels Japan is running in their whaling fleet.   The Sea Shepherds are generally considered an eco terrorist group and they have rammed a several vessels over the years.   They have also had skirmishes with military vessels in which they out manuevered some light destroyers and one of their ships sank after the Brittish SAS mined it in harbor.

They also have an agreement in place to defend the Galapagos islands and run patrols around the islands. Sea Shepard isn't amatuer hour.

Check out www.seashepherd.org if you want some interesting reading.   I don't approve of a lot of what they do, but there are several of their operations (including this one) that I do approve of.

EIDTed to correct link. Sorry for the typo.

< Message edited by Muttling -- 3/3/2008 11:11:36 AM >

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 11:19:02 AM

Termyn8or

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I judge, but I am not judging this. I am against killing for sport, but this is not for sport, they eat it. There are people here who want to save the deer so bad that now the deer are overpopulated and they are starving to death. I am not saying this is the case with whales, but should serve to illustrate that some people go too far.

It's a shame they took that calf, but if they took the mother it would probably die anyway. Justification ? No, a good reason ? Maybe. Fact of the matter is they get more out a fully grown one. Perhaps they should adjust their hunting season to when the offspring are emancipated, or do whales mate like humans, at will ? I'm not a whaleologist.

Ivory is a problem because the greed of man will impel him to kill the elephants, all of them, for their tusks. Then they leave the rotting corpse in the middle of the jungle in a country with plenty of starving people. If they eat the meat those tusks over the mantlepiece would be akin to antlers from a deer. But as it is rght now there are alot of countries in which you don't want to get caught with ANY ivory.

And last but not least, why are whales so revered among the many aquatic species' humans eat ? As long as the hunting is managed so as to not cause their extinction, just how wrong is it ? Is it because they are mammals ? No, we eat plenty of mammals. Is it because they're big ? That doesn't make any sense.

One person considers a certain species an exotic and magnificent creature, and another sees it as food. Go figure.

T

PS, I guess I answered the OP's question, they can say "That is our food". Now it is time to hit OK and sit back and see how many people I offended, this time :-)

T

(in reply to Muttling)

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 11:41:44 AM

airborne92

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Termyn8or,

Your post was well thought out and made some very valid points. Given that less the one fourth of the land in Japan is usuable for farming of any kind, it makes sense that they would use fishing and whaling as a primary source of food. The fact that the meat from the whales is being sold as food afterwards is showing me that they aren't just killing the whales for the fun of it or for purely scientific purposes.

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 11:42:35 AM

joanus

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Its there freaking job. Do they come to Burger King and chuck rocks at you while your making fries? Didn't think so. So step off and let them do their thing.

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Post #: 12

RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 11:44:52 AM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

Chemicals?????   You need to improve your reading comprehension skills.   It was spoiled butter.

On a side note, turning to ram the Sea Shepherd's ship would have been insanity for any of the clumbsy vessels Japan is running in their whaling fleet.   The Sea Shepherds are generally considered an eco terrorist group and they have rammed a several vessels over the years.   They have also had skirmishes with military vessels in which they out manuevered some light destroyers and one of their ships sank after the Brittish SAS mined it in harbor.

They also have an agreement in place to defend the Galapagos islands and run patrols around the islands. Sea Shepard isn't amatuer hour.

Check out www.seashepherd.org if you want some interesting reading.   I don't approve of a lot of what they do, but there are several of their operations (including this one) that I do approve of.

EIDTed to correct link. Sorry for the typo.

Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension. It was acid. It may have been benign acid, but it was acid nonetheless. That isn't the point, either. At first glance, the Japanese ship didn't know what it was, only that they were under fire. Under fire = attack. I defend myself from attack. And I would do no different if I were the captain of that ship. Those people would have been swimming home.

Interesting to hear you approve of and condone attacking other ships because they do something you don't agree with. Do you also support bombing abortion clinics and killing the staff to save the unborn babies?

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 2:09:07 PM

luckydog1

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Plus whale meat is very tasty.

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 2:29:05 PM

CuriousLord

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You're right to use the word "chemical", as even water's a chemical. But "acid"'s far too misleading of a word, and "chemical" may be similar in this respect. I mean, hell, most rain's acidic. Still, it's rather misleading, though, to say that the sky is conducting chemical warfare on us with acid attacks.

Still, words aside, did they go to far? I don't know. I mean, seriously, we can't take the status-quo as some baseline we can only speak against. Speaking against something's great, but the system isn't perfect, and relying on it to work for everything under the sun's just silly.

Again, did the protestors go to far? I really don't know. It's not an exact science. They basically made the whalers stinky, and possibly minorly ill from the stench. (You know how smelling bad stuff can make you throw up? Still, it's not like they're feverish.)

You know, there are countries in this world where I'm sure various things we'd object to are legal. Illegal types of porn and their poor, young victims abused to make it's one that's been in the news a lot lately. Then I'm sure there are still countries where it's either legal or the law overlooks it when there's rape, assault, and other sorts of things. (I mean, seriously, there are places in the world where I don't know who would care.)

So, in those sorts of places.. do you let those things go just because the land there doesn't have a law against it? Do you default to politely asking them to stop? At what point do you actually do something?

I'm guessing asking nicely didn't work for the whale activitists, so they're trying something the next step up. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss their actions as uncalled for.

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 2:34:15 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

I'm guessing asking nicely didn't work for the whale activitists, so they're trying something the next step up. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss their actions as uncalled for.

I would. It's not like these people were poaching for poaching's sake. They've even said why they do it. That doesn't warrant an attack with anything, chemical, acidic or otherwise.

For that matter, who's the judge? Who decides what's 'bad enough?" Are you saying that those lovely folks from "ELF" were right to torch 5 multimillion dollar homes? Are abortion activists right to bomb clinics, disregarding who might be inside?

This is a ship with people fishing. That's it. FISHING. We know they use every part of the whale. We know that they aren't out there on a mission to eradicate the whale.

What if we suddenly went out and attacked American farmers for raising beef-cattle? Is that right?

Sheesh.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 2:43:06 PM

CuriousLord

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There probably isn't anyone who decides what's right. It's going to vary from person to person. It isn't right to these people, and they're willing to do something about it. It may be right for me, but to say that it isn't for them may be disregarding objective reality, you know?

I'd steer away from labeling something simplisctically, too. Just as a "car" can run on gas or the blood of slain innocents, "operating a car" can be either fine or quite objectionable. So I'd not consider it as or as not "fishing", as the label is sort of a moot point in the presense of more detailed analysis.

You have a good point that the whalers are not killing whales to be openly malicious (one might suppose, anyhow). But I'd argue that this doesn't necessarily mean that they're right for doing so in one's eyes. Even a hobbiest thief is right in his own eyes!

I think a fair (in some respects) comparison might be someone who gets a flu shot one year when it's bad. Flu shots are typically short in supply; they're needed for more at-risk individuals, even though they're good for so many more people. It's really easy to see why someone who isn't "at-risk" but still at risk might want one, and even get one. Still, is he right for doing so when the cost is someone who needs it more not being able to get it? Not that he got it out of malice, or even out of luxury; he really needed it in the same sense that many do. Still, was he right? As he probably values himself more than a random stranger (as most people do), to him, yes, it's justifiable. What about to the guy who holds him at the door before he goes in? It's a big point we could argue. ;)

PS- One of the most difficult aspects of making a proof, such as a mathematical or logical one, is getting all the pieces together. Often, assumptions are needed. I think you can, in some immediate sense, make your case with the assumptions you've started with. It's not your proof so much as the assumptions that I'd contest. There's danger in idealism, you know.

Kinda odd to actually be sorta honest on CM.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 3/3/2008 2:52:22 PM >

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 2:46:40 PM

pahunkboy

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...well- being that US companies have been overfishing and specifically encroaching on Canada-- no easy answeres

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 3:00:26 PM

Smith117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

There probably isn't anyone who decides what's right. It's going to vary from person to person. It isn't right to these people, and they're willing to do something about it. It may be right for me, but to say that it isn't for them may be disregarding objective reality, you know?

I'd steer away from labeling something simplisctically, too. Just as a "car" can run on gas or the blood of slain innocents, "operating a car" can be either fine or quite objectionable. So I'd not consider it as or as not "fishing", as the label is sort of a moot point in the presense of more detailed analysis.

You have a good point that the whalers are not killing whales to be openly malicious (one might suppose, anyhow). But I'd argue that this doesn't necessarily mean that they're right for doing so in one's eyes. Even a hobbiest thief is right in his own eyes!

I think a fair (in some respects) comparison might be someone who gets a flu shot one year when it's bad. Flu shots are typically short in supply; they're needed for more at-risk individuals, even though they're good for so many more people. It's really easy to see why someone who isn't "at-risk" but still at risk might want one, and even get one. Still, is he right for doing so when the cost is someone who needs it more not being able to get it? Not that he got it out of malice, or even out of luxury; he really needed it in the same sense that many do. Still, was he right? As he probably values himself more than a random stranger (as most people do), to him, yes, it's justifiable. What about to the guy who holds him at the door before he goes in? It's a big point we could argue. ;)

PS- One of the most difficult aspects of making a proof, such as a mathematical or logical one, is getting all the pieces together. Often, assumptions are needed. I think you can, in some immediate sense, make your case with the assumptions you've started with. It's not your proof so much as the assumptions that I'd contest. There's danger in idealism, you know.

Kinda odd to actually be sorta honest on CM.

No matter how you dress it up, this was a case of one type of people attacking another, unprovoked. It's a short leap to make from bags of a smelly, slippy substance to something that can actually cause harm. Therefore, it's an attack and I would treat it as such. Same as with the cops in Washington calling the home-torching a possible domestic terrorist act, this was a terrorist attack on the high seas, however benign it turned out to be.

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RE: How can Japan defend this??? - 3/3/2008 3:22:25 PM

Muttling

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Termyn8or and pahunkboy. Well stated and well respected.

My only comment is to Termyn. As I stated previously, I have no issues what so ever with reasonable harvesting of huntable species. I don't care if it's dolphins, sharks, whales, deer, rabbit, or even apes. That said, I don't feel that any species of whale is currently at a huntable level. Minke's are the closest but fin and humpback are far from it IMO.

(in reply to Smith117)

Post #: 20

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