RE: Why bdsm? (Full Version)

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Sub03 -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 12:29:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seraphyim

Ok. Let me start by saying that I am not in the bdsm lifestyle. I am seeking closure in my life and I am hopeing that I can get it here. Illl apologize now if I speak badly. I mean to disrespect to any of you. If I speak poorly please understand that it is out of ignorance, not malice or spite.

Many years ago I met someone who tried to involve me in the bdsm lifestyle. It wasn't for me. I got some insights into my charactor and I realized that I am capable of  greater cruelty than I ever hoped to be, but in the end I could not reconcile love with dominance, affection with cruelty. She walked away to be with others who would dominate her.

It has been a thorn in my heart for a very, very long time. Hell, my heart still breaks for our lost love. I usually don't think about it because when I do I still get choked up.

Can someone please help me understand why she would rather be dominated than treated as an equal? Why she would choose humiliation instead of adoration? Why pain, when I offered her affection?


You know, I hate to burst your bubble here but if you speak to many submissives with an open mind rather than your own...admittedly jaundiced...viewpoint, you would find that many consider themselves to be equal to their dominant.  They also get the nuance behind the phrase "there is equality to be found in the inequality and inequality to be found in the equality".  As for humiliation, I would be willing to bet that you are equating humiliation to being the same as degradation.  To you, the idea of calling her "slut" or "whore" or "My little cockloving cocksucker" all comes across as degrading and a put down.  But for many submissives, those are the words that trigger a bunch of good buttons and very few of them have to do with a background of abuse.  And while we are on the subject of humiliation, let's move on to your next difficulty:  why choose humiliation over adoration?  Did you ever stop to think that for many who choose humiliation specifically...and D/s BDSM in general (as I have a feeling you are equating the whole shebang as one humiliating thing rather than a "real" relationship)...that they choose it because, when they are involved in humiliation play or when they are involved in the whole of their D/s dynamic, they DO feel cherished?  That they do feel adored?  That they feel loved and wanted and needed and satisfied because they are with a partner who has learned just which aspects of his submissive need what factors in order for her to feel cherished and adored and loved rather than pay her compliments which you may very well mean but which...let's be honest...could be used with almost any vanilla woman and are not specifically geared towards her?
Why pain?  Because, honest to God, some people are wired to love pain...to transmute pain into pleasure...to take pain because another desires for them to do so and it pleases them to serve in that way.


quote:

Why can some not relate to the "traditional" idea of love? Why bdsm?

Because we are all unique individuals, suffused with the experiences and teachings of and responses to our own lives as seen through our eyes and felt through our hearts and processed through our souls and minds?  And sometimes, that does not equate to traditional love...and yet, ironically, the idea of a dominant partner and a submissive partner making for the best relationship is one deeply steeped in tradition.  Please do not make the mistake of assuming, as many do, that dominating someone does not mean you cannot love them or that the vice-versa is true...submitting to someone does not mean that you cannot love them.  It might or it might not...just as in the vanilla world, where many people fuck and create babies and live together...and never really, truly love the one they have created a new life with;  but sometimes, they do.


What he said....very nicely put.




lusciouslips19 -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 12:41:10 PM)

The first time I was ever tied up. Tears welled up. it felt like love. I don't try to analyze it too deeply but when I am controlled, I am held tight, hair pulled, it is such a turn on. I am the heroine of a romance novel. he is the manly rogue. Its role play. edge play and dance of deep intimacy and trust. If a Dominant is a good one, he takes me as far as turns me on whether I am a light weight or masochist. Not only does he deliver the pain at the threshold I desire but he reads me also. Sometimes i can take more, sometimes less. The Dominant is honorable, loving in that he gives me what I crave and trustworthy. I would not give myself over to one who was not in control of his faculties. The BDSM we involve ourselves in solidifies our relationship and the intimacy is deeper than any other relationship I have ever know. The cathartic effect of BDSM evokes powerful emotions The sub being protected and the Dom the protector. Inflicting what I need and knowing whats not in my best interest. Passion and intimacy that few can find elsewhere.




ThundersCry -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 3:24:13 PM)

At one point I did my best to walk away from *bdsm*...
 
Why am I wired this way...I have no clue and it does not matter anymore.
 
Why not ask yourself...
 
Why not...




Bound2One -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 3:53:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

They also get the nuance behind the phrase "there is equality to be found in the inequality and inequality to be found in the equality".  As for humiliation, I would be willing to bet that you are equating humiliation to being the same as degradation.  To you, the idea of calling her "slut" or "whore" or "My little cockloving cocksucker" all comes across as degrading and a put down.  But for many submissives, those are the words that trigger a bunch of good buttons and very few of them have to do with a background of abuse.  And while we are on the subject of humiliation, let's move on to your next difficulty:  why choose humiliation over adoration?  Did you ever stop to think that for many who choose humiliation specifically...and D/s BDSM in general (as I have a feeling you are equating the whole shebang as one humiliating thing rather than a "real" relationship)...that they choose it because, when they are involved in humiliation play or when they are involved in the whole of their D/s dynamic, they DO feel cherished?  That they do feel adored?  That they feel loved and wanted and needed and satisfied because they are with a partner whohas taken the time to learn just which "Y" aspects of his submissive needs such and such "Z"  factors in order for her to feel cherished and adored and loved rather than take little time to pay her compliments which may very well be  meant sincerely but which...let's be honest...could be used with almost any vanilla woman and are not specifically geared towards her?
Why pain?  Because, honest to God, some people are wired to love pain...to transmute pain into pleasure...to take pain because another desires for them to do so and it pleases them to serve in that way.



CreativeDominant ... I just had to say that I loved what you said above - especially the part bolded!  Thank you!




daddysliloneds -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 3:58:52 PM)

why not ask her? 

AND

why are you afraid of yourself and your sadism if it was accepted with love and consentual?




TracyTaken -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 4:05:18 PM)

Some of us are just wired that way.   It's not really relevant to your question, IMO.

Love and BDSM are different things - just as love and sex are different things.  Don't stay all love-sick over her.  There are many out there who would be delighted to receive your love, in whatever form you choose to express that love.  [:)]




lusciouslips19 -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 4:06:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThundersCry

At one point I did my best to walk away from *bdsm*...
 
Why am I wired this way...I have no clue and it does not matter anymore.
 
Why not ask yourself...
 
Why not...


Actually, I have and I know the answer.




ThundersCry -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 5:15:10 PM)

I`m listenin`....




lusciouslips19 -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 5:41:44 PM)

The thing I figure is the psychosexual dynamic. I feel overwhelming feelings of love and being loved. I believe that perhaps this takes me back to childhood. I am spanked because I am loved and because its for my own good.

Edited to add: and any attention is good attention...at least as a kid.




DesFIP -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 7:49:19 PM)

Submissives are not inherently inferior. That's your first mistake. They are equal in value, but not in power.

Let us look at your basic corporation. There is one CEO. And he has an executive assistant who is essential to him. Without the exec ass't, the CEO can't find files, prepare for meetings, run to the airport without the bother of getting a ticket. All that stuff is done for him. The executive assistant is a very important person, but not a very powerful person.

A surgeon is more powerful in an operating room, yet he cannot operate without a nurse to assist. The nurse is of equal value, but not of equal power.

More importantly is why you cannot move on. She could have decided you weren't soul mates because she's a vegan and you love a bloody steak.  Would you have been willing to give up something you love forever or would you decide that your needs are of as much importance as hers, and that you  both deserve to find someone who loves the person you are, not the person they want you to be.




ProlificNeeds -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 8:43:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seraphyim

Can someone please help me understand why she would rather be dominated than treated as an equal? Why she would choose humiliation instead of adoration? Why pain, when I offered her affection?

Why can some not relate to the "traditional" idea of love? Why bdsm?



"I am dominated by my equal partner, who adores that I can feel pleasure in being humiliated before him. Ever time a needle pierces the flesh, every time his hand strikes me or closes about my throat, it is with the utmost affection for me."

Your kind of love, was not her kind of love. Would you begrudge her to find happiness?

Lots of people have said it, for some people, it is simply how they are wired. They need something different than you need.




TemptingNviceSub -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 8:50:17 PM)

AquaticSub, you sound a lot like her when you talk about how you hate constant adoration. I put her on a pedestal and that was somewhere she didn't want to be. It was part of why she left.~snipped from OP~


When someone is placed on a pedastal , they are essentially placed on display..Not truly to be understood, or to truly know and pay attention to what makes her tick, to know her deepest desires and to act upon them..being placed on a pedastal you tend to get dusted off once in a while, but that is about the extent of that..You did what you thought she wanted..not what she truly desired..in other words..you did NOT pay attention..or if you did, you chose to ignore what she said..hence neither of you were a good match..I am sorry you are hurting from this relationship..but remember ,what you mourn is a woman who only existed in your mind..not as she truly was..what relationship existed, is what was in your fantasies, not what truly was....Best/Tempting




Seraphyim -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 10:11:42 PM)

This conversation has actually helped me think a little bit more about myself and my motivations.

I  realize why I cannot move on..(or perhaps I am simply finally able to admit it). She fundamentally changed who I was. She opened a door, led me through kicking and screaming, and after that nothing was ever the same. But rather than complete the change that she has started, she left me floundering without a guide. And I was so incredibly not capable of dealing with who and what I had become.

In that way, she became my goddess, my creator. But suddenly her light was gone. I have never recovered. Oh, I have moved on to some degree. I am now married and I have children of my own..but the wound that she left has never healed.

Yeah, I know..I'm a frakking wreck!! I have managed a good facade though. Nobody outside of this forum knows the truth! [;)]




merrymasochist -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/3/2008 10:13:03 PM)

Instead of bemoaning that she did you wrong by being the way she is, perhaps you should be thanking her for the maturity and wisdom to see that your ways were not hers and walking away before getting too serious. From what you have written, if she had stayed one of y'all would have been required to make major changes in y'all's basic needs and wants and expression of those needs and wants. Attempting such changes would have eventually made both you and her miserable. You couldn't be what she needed. She couldn't be what you needed. Life happens that way and sometimes you just have to accept what isn't to be and let it go.

Peace,
merry




MaamJay -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/4/2008 2:06:58 AM)

OP: I'm getting the feeling that the bigger problem wasn't that she didn't want your vanilla style of love. And it wasn't that you can't entirely reconcile love and bdsm co-existing. I think the biggest problem was that she opened the door to a dark side of yourself that frankly scares the crap out of you. That you didn't know was there, that you didn't want to know was there, that you still don't want to acknowledge is there ... and that you have spent all these subsequent years hiding and suppressing. I don't think you'll be able to move on until you find a way to acknowledge that is part of you and only when you do that will you be able to forgive her for opening that door. For this isn't a case of mourning unrequited love ... this is a burning bitterness for the "burden" you have chosen to carry of trying to hide and suppress this. Seek acknowledgement, understanding and the capacity to forgive.

As so many have written, love and bdsm do not have to be polar opposites, I'm not sure you even believe that they are or have to be that way. I think this is an artifice you have created as a way of reconciling your loss. I have been married twice in vanilla life ... now live 24/7 D/s and I know that the love now experienced is way deeper and richer than the vanilla loves. OK I trusted my first hubby with my life when I climbed on the back of his touring motorbike and rode at illegal speeds across Australia 3 times! But there were other arenas in which my trust was misplaced, and that was our undoing after 15 years. And it wasn't long before I didn't trust no.2 with ANYTHING! Whereas as His sub of 4 years, i trust Master with my life in play, with all my worldly goods, with my emotional wellbeing. His Love nurtures me, sustains me, builds me up, makes me stronger. Yes ... i am the submissive and i am made stronger, not weaker. It takes a lot of strength to submit, try it sometime [;)]. And Master also understands that in my case, I am both Domme and sub and need to have both parts of Me operating, so He encourages Me to find a sub for Myself, whether male or female, despite that meaning that He will have to share my physical being with another person. Now, that IS love in My book. It's unselfish love, the love that wants the best for the person, not always for oneself.

I really wish you the best in finding the understanding you seek so that you might obtain closure. However, I think you are also scared of finding that closure won't be in the form you want ... it won't necessarily be your closing that door that she opened. It's been my experience that when people open the door into this part of themselves, it just won't stay closed again, it's almost impossible to go back to vanilla and stay there. And you haven't really managed it have you, because all this time you are still burning for this woman, still frustrated over what you lost. I think you are frustrated over losing that part of yourself, that opportunity for growth that she presented, despite the fact that it scared you to walk that path. Now you are scared to admit to yourself that maybe that door can't be shut and that closure will only come in a reopening ... when you walk that path again. And that might destroy the vanilla facade you have fought so valiantly to create.

I am pretty sure most, if not all of us here, can identify with that fear. We felt it when we took our first hesitant steps on this path. Even though in many cases it was accompanied with an amazing sense of "coming home" ... there was fear too. It's scary to allow ourselves to be so open, so vulnerable. And it's scary to look that deeply into another soul and see what lies therein. All that's different between us is how we responded to that fear.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]




chezzy52 -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/4/2008 2:48:08 AM)

I was a sub long before the internet came into the picture.I also came from a very small town so do you know how hard it was for me to come to terms with myself??Sure i dated a few women that thought of tying me to a bed or elsewhere but it was only a flash in the pan experience something just to try and then let go of because it was too freaky for them to accept as a lifestyle, or to look into further.It is what i call "Vanilla BDSM" because there was nothing more to it than that.And so,with the exception of one lone fetish of mine,i kept quiet about my feelings.To this day,not even my best friend knows of my preferrence.




julietsierra -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/4/2008 3:14:00 AM)

Do you remember a short lived television show called China Beach? I really liked that show. It was about a group of doctors and nurses during a war, only this time, instead of Korea, it was happening during the Vietnam War. Like MASH, all the characters hated being there and did what they could to keep sane until they could come home. Anyway, on the last episode of this show, all of the characters were older and were reuniting in Washington DC for the dedication of the Vietnam Memorial Wall. After the ceremonies, they were sitting on the steps to the Lincoln Memorial reminiscing about their time on China Beach. What I found interesting about their conversation is that they all admitted they hated that they'd been over there and that they'd seen the things they saw. They hated the war. And at the same time, they all admitted that it was only during that time that they felt the most alive they'd felt in their entire lives.

What does this have to do with your post?  Well, part of it is kind of an explanation of what we do (I'm speaking for myself in my relationship). I am most alive when I do what I do. I love the intensity. I spent the first 23 years of my adult sexual life hating much of what constituted love-making. I hated all those soft sweet caresses. I hated the gentle touch of my breasts, either with hands or mouth. I thought I was weird. Most of all I thought, "Is this all there is?" It wasn't my husband's fault. He was trying the best way he knew how to make me happy. I just didn't know how to tell him it wasn't right.

When I discovered bdsm, I thought (and told the person ) "You are fucking looney!" But the thoughts held and intrigued me and I started reading things on the internet about it. When my husband and I finally separated, I'd been talking to someone and we decided to meet. I figured I'd check this out and go back to looking for a normal relationship. He didn't know what the heck he was doing. It was probably a toss up as to who was more "green," him or me, but it didn't matter. That man wasn't gentle. His touch was heavy handed. He didn't softly touch breasts, he twisted and tweaked and for the FIRST TIME in my life, I actually felt something. I was amazed. And I was scared. And like another poster, I felt like I'd come home.

After meeting this person I did a lot of thinking. I mean, it was frightening to know that if I chose this life I'd be putting my life in the hands of people I don't know just to get an orgasm. I had all the normal fears, "what if that person is crazy? How can pain be good? How can men do this to women?" In the end, I didn't have the answers to those questions and tried to walk away from it all. But when you consider that for 23 years of my sexual life I'd never really had an orgasm, never really understood what the draw was about sex, only appreciated it for the closeness of it all, never for the sensations of it all, it was really hard to walk away. In the end, I figured out that I couldn't. And so, instead of being afraid of this part of me, I did the only thing I could. I protected myself from myself and I learned as much as I could about what it is I was considering undertaking. What I didn't do is run to where it was safe.

Without attacking you, I'm wondering if perhaps when you figured out that there was a side of you that frightened you, you ran to where it was safe? I'm wondering if you emeshed yourself in vanilla relationships, all the while, rationalizing to yourself that "bdsm just isn't for you" when in reality, you'd essentially opened Pandora's box and had chosen to sit on the lid hoping against hope that this side of you that you had a glimpse of would never come out again.

The funny (and not so funny) thing about discoveries is that once discovered, they really can't be undiscovered. We can choose to ignore them, but the knowledge is still there. My Master says that the scene in The Matrix kind of explains it all. You can take the red pill and become aware of things that you previously didn't ever have a clue about. It'll make your life harder, but you'll be more in touch with the reality of who you are - no matter what that reality is. Or you can take the blue pill and never ever come close to knowing what could be. Life would be easier, but would come without knowledge. Unfortunately for you, like the one character who decided to change his mind, you were made aware and have chosen, for your own reasons (and I'm not saying they're not valid) to in effect, choose the blue pill. Unfortunately, I don't think that character in the movie who chose to stop his knowledge once he'd acquired it ever got the chance to discover if he could forget. I know that for me, I wouldn't be able to forget and at odd times, the thoughts of that side of me would eventually show themselves. I chose to embrace all of me.

It seems to me that the problem now is that you are placing on your once-girlfriend all the blame for the knowledge of yourself that you've tamped down. It seems to me that as you try to find reasons why she just "couldn't accept your love" you are looking for reasons why you can't leave what you discovered behind. I don't believe people can undiscover things. Knowing nothing about you, I think that perhaps you're in a different place, a different time, a different age, and now, instead of frightening you, you're better able to explore those feelings she brought forth in you. Except now, you have more to lose by doing so. So again, you're running, trying to find that safe place where you can get these thoughts out of your head without jeopardizing the relationships you have.

I have no real advice I can give you except perhaps to simply acknowledge the interest and keep talking to your wife. Have you ever told your wife about that long ago relationship and the exploration you've done? It might be (no guarantees) that simply sharing this with her will be enough to move past this angst you're now feeling. Who knows? There might be areas in which you can practice safer aspects of this life with her? Lots of vanilla relationships engage in aspects of bdsm play in their love-making. You might just discover that there are ways to steer clear AND explore some of these feelings without losing the things and people you hold dear.

And I'm just supposing about all of this. I could be completely and totally off-base.

juliet




StormsSlave -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/4/2008 3:27:26 AM)

I'd like to point out something that I noticed while reading each of your posts.  It's something I've certainly been guilty of, as I'm sure some others here could say the same.  You are looking externally to fix what is happening to you internally.  In my experience, this is usually a major waste of time.  

It sounds to me like you're more in conflict over your own emotions than you are her motives.

The truth of the matter is this: it doesn't matter why your girlfriend left you for BDSM.  What matters to you is why did she leave YOU for bdsm, right?  I can't answer that, and neither can you.  She's the only one who can, and since you've both moved on, what's the point.

The only way you are going to feel better is to come to peace, in the person you are now, with the fact that you tried, you failed, and you made the decision that it wasn't for you.  Everything else is just crap, imho.

As for the not understanding BDSM thing, I can't help you there.  I don't understand my own damn self, but My Lord sure does make it fun.  I can tell you this.  I've been in and out of vanilla relationships for all of my life.  I've never felt such a depth of intimacy nor experienced a level of trust such as this one.  I didn't know it was possible to be like this.  This trust has been built partly because of the dynamics of our sex.  I give myself over to his knowledge, wisdom, and strength willingly and most of the time, without reserve.  He accepts my gift, and would never willingly cause me true harm.  Is it a bdsm thing?  Probably not...I'm sure "vanilla" people have acheived a level of trust to this degree, but I'm positive it never happened to me before.




Seraphyim -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/4/2008 4:34:41 AM)

quote:

Instead of bemoaning that she did you wrong by being the way she is, perhaps you should be thanking her for the maturity and wisdom to see that your ways were not hers and walking away before getting too serious.



If only that were true. We were together for almost about three years. We were married and six months later she was gone. So, it was as serious as any relationship could possibly be. This wasn't a case where we had a fling and it ended suddenly. No, my wife, who I loved more than life itself, walked out the door and was with someone new within days of her departure.




Seraphyim -> RE: Why bdsm? (3/4/2008 5:07:12 AM)

Again, I appreciate the responses. MaamJay and StormsSlave, I especially found your posts to be insightful.

Oh, MaamJay, in many ways you may be very correct. I am bitter. Bitter that my wife scorned my love. Bitter because I gave her everything that I had to give and it wasn't enough. Bitter because I loved her with all of my heart and she treated that love like it was nothing. Bitter because she left me for someone who, in my eyes, treated her badly.

But my experiences with her are what made me the person I am now. I don't know if I am a bette person than I was before she was, but of course the answer to that would be entirely subjective anyway. But I am different. More tolerant in most ways..but I have a hurt and a bitterness in me that will not go away.

I left everything I had, everything I was, and everyone I knew behind because I could not face where she was going with her life. I haven't chatted with her since 2000 when she told me in a message that leaving me had been a mistake...that was four years after she left. I hadn't seen or heard from her since. Until two days ago. I found and obscure reference to her on the internet and it led me here. It hurt to see it. The only references to her anywhere on the internet deal with either bdsm or role-playing (the gaming kind). It saddens me that of all the things that she could be known for..these are it. To the random individual who stumbles across her on the internet...this is who she is. I always hoped that she would have a bit of a grander place in the world.

Listen to me . Here I am questioning how others live and it strikes me that it is really I who am the truly pathetic one in this situation. Those who know me, generally tend to love me. I am a wonderful person when it comes to everyone else. But when it comes to me personally, I am a a hollow shell of who I could have been.

Ironic, because I have touched many thousands of lives all across the world. I have made it may life's endeavor to aid and assist and free all I can...but it is me that is truly the prisoner.

She is a member of these forums. I will not reveal to anyone who she is because it is not my intent to embarrass her in any way. But if she happens upon this thread then I hope that she will accept my apology and know that I only ever wanted what was best for her..that maybe I didn't know what that was..but everything I ever did was for her. I love her still and I probably always will.






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