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Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 11:08:23 AM   
bitch2humiliate


Posts: 7
Joined: 12/8/2007
Status: offline 		Is Masochism self harm by proxy?
Does a good whupping bring about the same release as self harming does?
What are the differences or similiarities between the 2 if any?
Is a self harmer a masochist or a masochist a self harmer?

Your thoughts on the above questions or any other comments on the subject would be welcomed as I am trying to put together a document on the above subject and would be really interested in other peoples opinions, views or experiences.. I wont out my personal opinions forward just yet because I dont want to influence the replies in any way.

If you would rather reply personally via the messages function on this site then please feel free to do so... if i do manage to put together an article on it please be assured that no names or direct references will be used as i understand how personal things like this can be.

Many thanks to any and all that respond

His little bitch
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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 11:16:09 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		Ok answering this question calls on honest I think. For me I was a self harmer I am not a masochist and I dont enjoy pain. The feeling that you get from self harm is in my experaince very differant. This is not to say that my darker past makes up one of the reasons that I now am submissive.

Self harm for me had many connotations it was partly a cry for help (which some use as an insult but seriosusly if you are that starved of attention that you hurt yourself its still a pretty big issue) It was also to do with self loathing (which i think IS an elemnt of my submissive tendencies) It was a release factor and a way of refocusing the pain.

My submission is based on some of the negative feelings I have about myself along with positive ones. Nothing is ever as nice and fluffy as it may seem and often we dont like to admit the less pretty things about ourselves. I dont see self harm and being spanked as the same thing. Self harm is a very private feeling, a feeling of dispair something I certainly have never felt in a D/s dynamic. There are certain things I wouldnt do nor would Sir do due to my history of self harm such as knife play because the connotations would be negative for both of us. But i dont believe my submission is harming to me nor is it a part of self destruction, if anything my submission has helped me to get out of the head space that I was in that led me to hate myself with such a passion.

I hope that this in no way makes anyone feel the need to message me to tell me that I shouldnt be a sub or that I should talk to a counciler, I believe that my admitting to the link to myself and owning those feelings is the reason that I am able to continue with a far more positive view of myself.


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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 11:18:05 AM   
Madame4a


Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline 		I'm not a psychologist, but I can play one on collar me...

self harm generally is different than healthy masochism.. and there are plenty of people who will not use the words healthy and masochism in the same sentence...

I'm neither a masochist, nor a self harmer so I can't speak to most of it, including the differences but I view one as healthy and one as not so healthy...

that's me...

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 11:25:04 AM   
trusting


Posts: 144
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		as a previous self-cutter... my opinion on this may not be agreed upon by all.

when i was a teen, my inner hurt/anger came out through self-mutilation... the cutting itself was not something i enjoyed, it was the release of the pain that made me feel good.

as a submissive... the 'pain' is not from anger or confusion, it is from the fact that we both desire it in our lives, it is something that we both enjoy to some degree and decide to participate in.

to me, these two instances are not related to one another... the same feeling does not come from both experiences.


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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 11:39:54 AM   
LordVelvet


Posts: 311
Joined: 4/25/2006
Status: offline 		The latest article states that if you were spanked to much as a child you have a much greater chance of being a Masochist. I almost fell of My chair reading think about it. Food for thought.
LordVelvet

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 11:45:15 AM   
ThundersCry


Posts: 892
Status: offline 		From what I known/read...those that are self harmers <cutters,etc> fall under the category of being deadly masochists...
 
The good news is...some...recover from it.
 
Good luck...

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 11:45:53 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordVelvet

The latest article states that if you were spanked to much as a child you have a much greater chance of being a Masochist. I almost fell of My chair reading think about it. Food for thought.
LordVelvet


I would suggest that all of our past makes us who we are today whether we like that idea or not. I dont believe that this in itself is harmful to anyone at least not as much as denying the exsistance of the crap is.

I have been thinking some more about it. For me personally i didnt activly ever enjoy the feeling of pain when I self harmed that was more of an obsticle for the feeling afterwards, the visual and the release and all the other mirriad of reasons that I did it. The only time then that I would suggest that self harm and playing may have i link would be the way you felt at the time. If you felt depressed/down etc and you then asked to be spanked/flogged etc to get rid of that feeling would it then be equatable. The actions themselves are irrelevent it is the MOTIVATION behind those actions that makes it dangerous. Which is why i think as an ex self harmer i have to be very diligant of my feelings and why I am doing something and sometimes being brutally honest with myself isnt nice. I dont always enjoy it. But if i accept all the reasons behind it then my choices become MY CHOICES rather than unconscious self destruction which often is what self harm is.


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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 11:49:44 AM   
PinkDice


Posts: 17
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bitch2humiliate

Is Masochism self harm by proxy?



In an m/s dynamic, the masochist has placed him/herself in a situation where pain or discomfort (be it emotional or physical) is likely to be inflicted. If, for this person at this time, pain=harm, then masochism is self harm by proxy. However, the way this topic is phrased, it seems much like asking if a sadist is by proxy an abuser. Masochism certainly CAN involve self harm, but to ask it to be generalized is a gigantic leap that I am not willing to make.

Personally, I am an emotional masochist. I just need the release. IMO, an action is colored by its intent. Method actors will think of terrifying things to get themselves into the moment and it's not considered masochism or self harm. In the same vein, I have been made to think of similar terrible things as a bottom, and I don't feel it's self harm. Someone who thinks those same thoughts and drives him or herself into depression is obviously hurting him or herself.

Self harm is behavior a person partakes in to harm him or herself. I know it's simplistic, but that's where the line lays for me.

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 11:50:20 AM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		~fr~
I had a relationship with more than one who were self cutters.  One was long term and she had it under control and hadn't had a relapse in years.  Then one day, after actually attending a Master/slave permanent marriage/collaring ceremony we got back the house and she went in the bathroom and cut herself.  She said she did it because she didn't think we would ever have a long term M/s relationship.  I was shocked and actually hurt that she did this.  After holding her and comforting her.  I decided to cut her (our actual first cutting). She never cut herself again.

Z-


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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 12:01:46 PM   
LordVelvet


Posts: 311
Joined: 4/25/2006
Status: offline 		colouredin,
I am not denying anything. I had more than My fair share of getting smacked and am both a Sadist and Masochist. I was joking with My sub and My slave that I want revenge. I love the life I have today and if the path of Hell is what it took to get here then so be it. I was just sharing an article that I had read today that's all. Just My thoughts.
LordVelvet

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 12:45:33 PM   
probablyknowme


Posts: 1875
Joined: 9/19/2007
Status: offline 		Wow, Dark Daddy, I wonder how your thought processes worked there. I am sincerly curious how you came to the conclusion that if she cuts herself for whatever reasons (I can't assume to know the reasons behind cutting as I am not a cutter) that to make it better, you should cut her. You said that it was your first cutting scene, so I take that to mean that you did cutting with some frequency after that. I wonder if you ever had a moment of concern about being an enabler of her self-destructive behavior? I am really very curious about this.

kat

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 12:49:48 PM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: probablyknowme

Wow, Dark Daddy, I wonder how your thought processes worked there. I am sincerely curious how you came to the conclusion that if she cuts herself for whatever reasons (I can't assume to know the reasons behind cutting as I am not a cutter) that to make it better, you should cut her. You said that it was your first cutting scene, so I take that to mean that you did cutting with some frequency after that. I wonder if you ever had a moment of concern about being an enabler of her self-destructive behavior? I am really very curious about this.

kat

I'm no guru so I really don't remember how my mind worked at the time. We had just started incorporating more fluid bonding rituals in our relationship before this happened.  I had some cutting experience prior but not a lot.  We did a lot of cutting in our relationship usually for rituals and not just for kink, honestly looking back, this was probably a ritual of sorts as well.

I never felt I was an enabler of her cutting as she never cut herself again.  I will say though if after our first cutting she came to me and asked me to cut her or she needed cutting as a cleansing (I have heard other selfcutters use this term before) then maybe I would have been alarmed.

Best,
DDZ-

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"Flirting is part of the job description." DJ Jesus (Lucy Daughter Of The Devil)

Vanilla Official Music Page http://www.myspace.com/djzulu

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 12:53:38 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		I guess its differant for differant people, I have had people ask me about my self harm and have said that they would like to cut me to replace it, which shocked me (esp as i was fairly new at the time) That to me IS abusive and is terrible. I genuinely believe its about head space. If she had then seen your cutting her as replacing her cutting herself it would have in my mind been dangerous, but its what works for differant people I guess. 

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I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 1:03:06 PM   
SubbieOnWheels


Posts: 590
Joined: 12/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordVelvet

The latest article states that if you were spanked to much as a child you have a much greater chance of being a Masochist. I almost fell of My chair reading think about it. Food for thought.
LordVelvet

I was made to write lines - things like "I will not hit my brother" 1000 times. Do you suppose that's why I'm a writer now? [grin]


Colouredin, I like your responses. They are well-thought-out and reflect your intelligence.

I am a masochist, but I have never been a self-harmer. My masochism is relational. I enjoy the reaction my partner gets while he's flogging and torturing me. Besides, the pain goes right to my "arousal mechanism," and is literally a sexual experience. I highly doubt that self-harming is a sexual experience.

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Bethical
Beat me, strike me, take away my reindeer! I'll never tell! -- Walt Kelly, Pogo Possum
I yam what I yam - Popeye

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 1:09:55 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		Pain in itself causes adrenaline, its a chemical reaction which is one of the reasons self harmers become addicted to self harm its refered to as a "rush" thats an enjoyment. But from my experiance this pleasure response is somewhat tinged by the reason that you did it. For many self harmers it is a way to channal the mental pain to physical pain allowing them to feel a sense of stability and normallity. As subbieonwheels said that has nothing to do with arousal or sex or power exhange or any of the BDSM buzz words.

edited to add, thankyou for the compliment subbieonwheels, also thankyou for messages I have recieved, I am very glad that my experiances can help other people understand theirs :D


< Message edited by colouredin -- 3/3/2008 1:12:38 PM >

_____________________________

Resident Lime(y) Tart
There would be no gossip without secrets
I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvfMJoKDAk

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 1:44:45 PM   
LordVelvet


Posts: 311
Joined: 4/25/2006
Status: offline 		colouredin,
I missed where you wrote in about having to write, it was very cute. My answer is maybe. I didn't write the article nor did I say if I agreeed with it, but thank you for playing.
LordVelvet

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 1:45:26 PM   
lateralist1


Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		As a social worker I have worked with people who self harm. It is often portrayed as a sign of low self esteem however I am not sure that it is always. I think simplistic explanations of behaviours can sometimes be detrimental. We don't always know why we do things. We do love to understand, diagnose and categorise.
As we know lots of people in the lifestyle have been 'abused' in childhood and as has been stated one of the effects of 'abuse' is sometimes enjoyment of the 'abuse' and a need for reinactment.
I also don't think it is wise to link these two things together as if they are the same.
Human beings seek challenge and thrills. We are often obsessive in our behaviours.
We also need security in relationships and freedom.
We have so many different needs which often conflict. Once one need is satisfied another rises to the surface. Above all human beings are very complex.
If a certain behaviour is harmful to us then we have to change it but understanding and acknowledging what is harmful is very individual and professional help isn't always available or even very good.


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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 1:46:20 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		Im sorry all of that went totally over my head. 

_____________________________

Resident Lime(y) Tart
There would be no gossip without secrets
I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvfMJoKDAk

(in reply to LordVelvet)
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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 1:50:22 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		Oh I would agree, I am simply saying my personal feeling about self harm and from talking to other self harmers. I have found that people who have the biggest opinions on it tend to be those with no experiance on it. I figured by putting in my personal experainces it would give a differant slant from the often stigmatised view because I feel that I have quite a rational feeling about my own self harm.I also know that when I first stumbled on the scene i read some pretty horrible comments about self harmers which hurt me quite a lot and though often it is hard to admit to if for fear that others may judge you I thought it better to say how i feel in a more positive way than to allow too much negativity.  I dont know if that was aimed at me i was just going by the little bit at the bottom, it could of course been a fast reply, just thought I better explain my motivations.

edited to add - I have found that the professional help I have recieved wasnt that great It was either ignored as a phase or seen to be something that it wasnt. I came to terms with it with the help of friends eventually who encouraged me to be more honest about my reasons for it than I had been before. There are of course fantastic support networks out there and each person copes differantly and at their own time.


< Message edited by colouredin -- 3/3/2008 1:57:40 PM >

_____________________________

Resident Lime(y) Tart
There would be no gossip without secrets
I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvfMJoKDAk

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RE: Masochism and Self Harm - 3/3/2008 1:56:57 PM   
SubbieOnWheels


Posts: 590
Joined: 12/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Im sorry all of that went totally over my head. 


That's because I tried to get fancy when I posted. I replied to LordVelvet within the quote and then addressed the rest of my post to you. My bad.

_____________________________

Bethical
Beat me, strike me, take away my reindeer! I'll never tell! -- Walt Kelly, Pogo Possum
I yam what I yam - Popeye

http://www.myspace.com/bethical_wheels


(in reply to colouredin)
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