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RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/13/2008 5:06:16 PM   
luckydog1


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Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		But infact that is not the dictionary definition Alumbrado.  So you can pretend it is all day long.  Anyone interested can look it up for themselves.

ma·te·ri·al·ism
play_w("M0149300")


 (m-tîr--lzm)
n.
1. Philosophy The theory that physical matter is the only reality and that everything, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of matter and physical phenomena.2. The theory or attitude that physical well-being and worldly possessions constitute the greatest good and highest value in life.3. A great or excessive regard for worldly concerns. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Materialism de·ter·min·ism
play_w("D0171300")


 (d-tûrm-nzm)
n.
The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Determinism a·the·ism
play_w("A0495200")


 (th-zm)
n.
1.
a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.2. Godlessness; immorality. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atheism I believe I am the one using dictionary definitions of words, as usuall.  Despite the snarky insults.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/13/2008 11:44:55 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		"If the decision was not influenced by an outside agency, it is considered free will.... at least by the dictionary ( and we are all too painfully aware of  how offended you are by that)."

And in an Atheistic construct, the laws of science (as they are, not our presently incomplete understanding of them) are the outside agency, as well as any physical realities that affect our brain chemistry.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/16/2008 1:25:48 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

a
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

"If the decision was not influenced by an outside agency, it is considered free will.... at least by the dictionary ( and we are all too painfully aware of  how offended you are by that)."

And in an Atheistic construct, the laws of science (as they are, not our presently incomplete understanding of them) are the outside agency, as well as any physical realities that affect our brain chemistry.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne



Still not sure I get "precisely" where you are coming from on that since I am not able to combine athiesm with determinism in absolute terms therefor I do not see how all causation without exception must be intrinsically tied to athiesm?     Lack of religion is a religion in itself for all intents and purposes. 

It seems to me that determinism can only be used if the round peg fits into the round hole and must be very carefully applied to in the end be correct usage. 

It seems to me that you can equally combine any god force as you put it with determinism too?

So if determinism is that which is calculatable for all intents and purposes then what is irrationality? That which is not calculatable?  The god force?  That which cannot be accounted for by determinism? How are you catagorizing all this? 

Frankly topics like this get difficult unless everything is well defined and I do not even know what a god force is in your terms.  I guess I cannot comprehend what a god force is in any terms so I am pretty much winging it here.




You skipped over my post here lucky and it directly addresses your point.

Determinism only works if the outcome can be calculated or predicted.

People, Athiests with or without some kind of god force as you put it can be irrational and illogical, so it seems to me that the only way determinism can be hung on on atheism is if you force a round peg in a square hole unless you can say that all irrational and illogical actions are a result of god force (what ever that is).

That and do we know with certainty that what you envision is a god force is not physical?

So what you need to do here is show how athiesm is intrinsically tied to materialism such that it can properly fall under the heading of determinism unless of course I just came up with the exception which means that you can not legitimately assign determinism to atheism.








_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/16/2008 5:34:55 PM   
luckydog1


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Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		I din't skip your post, we are both being moderated.

First of all this is not a proof of anything.  Some religions believe in a divine Determination, some don't.  There is a widley held philospohical school that is pretty much universaly accepted by Athiests (does not apply to Agnostics) of Materialism, ie there are no outside causes. 

IF someone can give me an example of an Non Materialistic based Atheistic philosophy, please do, and I will eat crow and shut up.  And Determinism and Materialism are inexoraby linked. 

"It seems to me that you can equally combine any god force as you put it with determinism too?"  

Well of course you can, Deism is a common term for it.  But a Deist is not an Athiest.   Either everything is the result of reactions controlled by the actuall rules we call the laws of Science, or they are not.  Either the initial conditions of our universe were created with intent (Deism), or as the result of laws of science (that would likely be different than ours, but internally consistent and consistent.  If there is a force beyond the rules of Science, please give an example. 

Irrational decisions don't really factor into this.  Irrational is a value judgement.  The brain process input, and gives output.  There is no soul if you are an Atheist.  You perceive one, but its an illuion.  You percieve will but its an illusion.  Some irrational decisions pay off in a big way, it is very easy to see how it is evolutionarly beneficial that people act with a a degree of illogic.

"That and do we know with certainty that what you envision is a god force is not physical? "

No we do not.  I will readilly concede that that which I percieve as a God Force (for lack of a better term), could be entirely natural, and have no will.  That there is something there, which I mistakenly attribute Will to, is certainly a real posibility.  I am certain that my perception is incomplete and lacking.   That would indicate a deterministic universe however. 


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/16/2008 5:40:29 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		"Determinism only works if the outcome can be calculated or predicted. "

This is absolutly incorrect.  Things were caused by the laws of science long before any living had any perception.  And before animals had the ability to caluculate and predict. 

The reality of Determinism in an Athiestic universe does not give us any ability to predict micro level events (say lottery numbers next week).  However every condition that affects what those numbers will be, will be set by preceding conditions combined witht he laws of science, and by those alone.  

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/17/2008 5:50:50 AM   
cjan


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Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Thread has gone a li'l off track. Don'tcha think?

Thanks for the link and info, OP.

As to the definition of "Namaste", and the debate on what words and language mean...especially considering that Sanskrit and Pali are both "dead" languages (we'd have to consult a long dead authority to really know), in my experience, Namaste "means", I bow to ,greet and salute the divine in you". Kind of a nice salutation, I think. And, it puts me in mind of how I should treat "others" and how "I" would like to be treated.

Namaste, y'all.


(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/17/2008 9:58:30 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Thread has gone a li'l off track. Don'tcha think?

Thanks for the link and info, OP.

As to the definition of "Namaste", and the debate on what words and language mean...especially considering that Sanskrit and Pali are both "dead" languages (we'd have to consult a long dead authority to really know), in my experience, Namaste "means", I bow to ,greet and salute the divine in you". Kind of a nice salutation, I think. And, it puts me in mind of how I should treat "others" and how "I" would like to be treated.

Namaste, y'all.


You are quite welcome. Did you run across my thread about exponential growth? I found it fascinating -  it features a Professor at UC-Boulder giving a lecture/seminar on the very simple math of growth.

Very, very simplified, it is the fact that rate of growth divided by 72 equals the number of years it takes for something to double. Like population growth, energy (particularly oil) usage, food consumption, and so on. Those who believe we have an almost infinite supply of crude on Earth, or that think that it is 3rd world growth that is the problem WRT declining resources, when in fact it is us, the US, that is the problem, should (or would be advised) to watch it. However, it is much easier to maintain one's preconceptions than it is to change one's mind on the basis of new information.

Namaste

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 3/17/2008 9:59:27 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/17/2008 11:13:01 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Thread has gone a li'l off track. Don'tcha think?

Thanks for the link and info, OP.


Yah but its a dead thread anyway.  

The OP when called out on his claims to put up or shut up chose to shut up and go awol.  

So much for the link.  LOL

PS: there are a lot better links out there than that one.  that one leaves lots of stuff out :)






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/17/2008 11:22:35 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/17/2008 11:16:35 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
Very, very simplified, it is the fact that rate of growth divided by 72 equals the number of years it takes for something to double. Like population growth, energy (particularly oil) usage, food consumption, and so on. Those who believe we have an almost infinite supply of crude on Earth, or that think that it is 3rd world growth that is the problem WRT declining resources, when in fact it is us, the US, that is the problem, should (or would be advised) to watch it. However, it is much easier to maintain one's preconceptions than it is to change one's mind on the basis of new information.

Namaste


Oh come on.... I have been using the 72 rule since I was a freraking child and its as old as dirt LOL

Why dont you put up your math here to support your claims instead of distracting to another thread?





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/17/2008 11:19:39 PM   
Real0ne


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Lucky atheism is simply no believe in a deity.  How are you combining it to materialism?   Are you claiming that disbelieve in a deity is syn with materialism?






_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/18/2008 1:36:07 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		I don't think any serious person is arguing that we will never run out of oil.  I mean, we will never pump the last drop, but we will effectivley stop using it within the next hundred years.  The issue is will we ever run out of energy, and while exponeitial growth is pretty powerfull, it will take a long time for us to use up all the energy in the Universe.  So effectivley we can say we will never run out of Energy. 

The trend is population growth is alarming, but is coming down.  The rate of increaese is slowing and in something like 50 years will peak out, at current trends. 

The rate of increase in the use of non fossil fuels is also growing at a nice rate, and exponetialism will affect it also. 

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/18/2008 10:33:00 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Well real, lets first note that you clearly said you did not go read the previous thread.  But, yes I am saying that Atheism and Materialism are linked, essentially the same.  As I previously explained, give an example of a Non Materialistic Atheisitic system, and I have been completely shown wrong, will eat a big plate of crow, and drop the topic... 

If you want to claim something other than materialist forces (laws of science) causes things (anything) to happen in an Atheistic universe, please give an example.  Show me wrong, teach me something.  Name a force beyond the laws of science that can cause anything to happen in a materialist universe.  Or give me an Atheism that is not Material based, and congruent with the laws of science.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/18/2008 11:21:10 AM   
luckydog1


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Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		"Those who believe we have an almost infinite supply of crude on Earth, or that think that it is 3rd world growth that is the problem WRT declining resources, when in fact it is us, the US, that is the problem, should (or would be advised) to watch it."

I already adressed the crude, we have an almost infinite supply of energy available to us on Earth.  Certainly enough to last untill the sun burns out, and we have to move anyway. 

3rd world growth really is a problem, the trends are improving, but are going to be awfull for a very long time.  Those socieities are way over natural carrying capacity, far more than we are.  If China only had 250 million people, they could easyily have a similar technological society to ours, without the ecological nightmare that is occuring there, and is far worse than anything you would find in the USA. 

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/18/2008 3:45:32 PM   
Real0ne


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Right I didnt because it was 20 pages.

So what are you contrasting this against?   I can make a case for the god force to be the same.   I also do not see a link (aside from some peoples positions on the subject which I am not so sure is valid), between atheism and materialism such that that is the little box that atheism must reside in.

How are you tying no believe in a deity to materialism, then later to determinism.  I fail to see a direct connection.

Are you trying to make a case for a god force or disect something else here.

Maybe you can give an example of your atheistic, materialism, that is deterministic such that it illustrates what you are talking about more clearly and gives some definite lines to work with.





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/18/2008 7:22:00 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I don't think any serious person is arguing that we will never run out of oil.  I mean, we will never pump the last drop, but we will effectivley stop using it within the next hundred years.  The issue is will we ever run out of energy, and while exponeitial growth is pretty powerfull, it will take a long time for us to use up all the energy in the Universe.  So effectivley we can say we will never run out of Energy. 

The trend is population growth is alarming, but is coming down.  The rate of increaese is slowing and in something like 50 years will peak out, at current trends. 

The rate of increase in the use of non fossil fuels is also growing at a nice rate, and exponetialism will affect it also. 
Well, I exaggerated for dramatic effect, but I have had some people on that other site make the ridiculous assertion that, since Petrobras recently discovered a new field in very deep water, all the oil companies need to do is go out farther and drill and - voila! - there will magically be oil.

Also, have you ever heard of the "abiogenesis" theory of oil formation?
http://forums.hypography.com/earth-science/2946-oil-not-fossil-fuel-2.html (this is a forum, and not a description of the theory)

I'm quoting this Zohaar dude from a post farther down:
"So now we have evidence , the science of which is not questioned, to undermine the generally accepted myth of oil as fossil fuel which we are not supposed to question." Now, I don't know about you, but I have seen similar statements many times here since I joined. "The science of which is not questioned..." Maybe not in tinfoil-hat land, but rational people reject it out of hand. If you recall my thread on "quackery", the author makes a statement something to the effect of whenever he sees anyone use the word "quantum" in a discussion/argument, his bullshit meter goes into the red. So here's a "bingo!" from Zohaar:
"The molecular structure of hydrocarbon and biotic molecules is determined by the quantum mechanical properties of the covalent carbon bond." Now this sounds appropriately scientific, and most people would accept it at face value. It's the cart before the horse, though. "Quantum Mechanics" is the mathematical tool whereby the characteristics of covalent bonds in simple, small molecules can be calculated. The bonds in any molecule "are what they are", to use a hackneyed phrase. Do you see what I am getting at?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covalent_bond

Anyways, there are people that argue that crude oil spontaneously generates in rock, and then migrates towards the surface, picking up biological markers along the way. According to these folks, oil in theory cannot run out because it is continuously being generated.

If I directed you to the appropriate part of the video I have mentioned (about energy), would you watch it?

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/18/2008 7:27:17 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Oh come on.... I have been using the 72 rule since I was a freraking child and its as old as dirt LOL
Well, that is just freraking wonderful.

quote:

Why dont you put up your math here to support your claims instead of distracting to another thread?

I still have no idea what the frerake you are babbling about.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/19/2008 9:37:45 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Nah, I have no need to watch a video making a fake claim about oil production.

Nor do I give a damn about some dude named zohar.

Did you get kicked of of the other site, or something?  You really seem to have some issues about it.  IF you feel a need to continue debates from there, go there, and confront the people, you want to argue with.

So I take it riduculous exageration in your posts are a regular part of posting on the "other site".  I, and I, would imagine plenty of others would like it if you stuck to facts in these discussions. 

Like I said no one seriuos is arguing that there is unlimited oil

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/19/2008 9:42:07 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
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Status: offline 		Well real, if you are nto intresed in reading about the topic, I don'tunderstand why you want to challenge me on it.

I asked you a very simple question, that you refuse to answer.  So this is very pointless

----In an Atheistic universe, what other than the laws of science can cause anything to happen?----

After you answer this question, you can ask me another one. 


(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/19/2008 3:38:17 PM   
Real0ne


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Nope lucky I have not challenged you on any level (on this one).

I simply want to understand where you are coming from.

I did read just a wee bit from the other thread and realized that no one ever set forth the definitions of where they were coming from and everyone just ran with what they thought each other was saying and it turned into  a total shit mess.


I think science can explain everything that is repeatable and follows a rational course god or no god.

In may cases there are many choices or avenues that a course of events can take place and sure for all intents and purposes science can explain them, if not specifically give the range that something will occur.

What science cannot explain to your statisfaction today I am sure will do just fine 3000 years from now.

Free will can only choose from a certain range as well.  I may have free will but I cannot will to fly.

I get the impression you feel that an atheist has no free will, we still choose from the same range of ends that the god people do, do we not?



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/19/2008 3:39:27 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
Oh come on.... I have been using the 72 rule since I was a freraking child and its as old as dirt LOL
Well, that is just freraking wonderful.

quote:

Why dont you put up your math here to support your claims instead of distracting to another thread?

I still have no idea what the frerake you are babbling about.



Ok so you duck my questions for what is it now the 3rd time by claiming ignorace to your own OP?

Great debate style hk.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 60
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