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RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/19/2008 6:04:23 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		"I get the impression you feel that an atheist has no free will, we still choose from the same range of ends that the god people do, do we not? "

Nope, whether free will exists or not, has nothing to do with what anyone believes.  I am saying that in an Atheistic/Materialistic  universe, everything is determined, including the thoughts in our heads.  You can't actually make a choice.  It may seem that you can, but in reality you can not.  the brain is just a biological machine that process input and gives output, according to scientific laws.  There can be no choice.  The illusion of will certainly exists. 

I just find it interesting that so many commited public Atheists refuse to admit this (some even got angry and had to resort to misdefining words), and the reactions of such make me want to continue.  It seems that many people want to disagree with me, just because of me.  Which makes thier claims of only going by logic and facts quite suspect.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/20/2008 12:09:56 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		Thats the problem with determinism.

While all possible avenues can be explained by science such that it may not necesarily predict, (and cant), every exact reaction under all conditions, it can predict a range of possible reactions.

One then will choose one reaction from the possible range of reactions.

As an example;  you walk up to the curb to cross the street.  So before you cross you look left and right to insure there is no oncoming traffic. 

The only way science can predict this is if there were a way to apply some sort of weighting system to it.  There would need to be an advantage to looking left first then science could predict left otherwise science is helpless to make such a calculation based on materialism.

Science cannot predict whether you will look left first or right first  because which way you look first is meaingless and entirely irrelevant to the end, or final outcome. 

So how can determinism be used under those circumstances?

There are things in nature that operate in the smae manner.

Maybe in the very broadest terms we can claim its deterministic in some instances but not as a whole as there are to many htings where the choices are perfectly equal and like flipping a coin left to chance so to speak. 


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/20/2008 12:23:41 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/20/2008 12:58:51 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Lucky - it is entirely possible for a system to be lawful and uncalculable at the same time. Meaning, there is nothing hocus pocus about how it works but the results it produces cannot be predicted in any but the most vague terms (in Canada it will probably snow in December and probably won't in July - but you can't say how much snow will fall on a particular spot and some time in the distant future).

A human mind will probably experience certain categories of perception and reaction at certain times under certain stimuli. Fear of snakes, for example. That does not mean that on a certain day, a snake, whose being was also predetermined and whose actions bring her to the precise time and place needed to evoke a particular, nuanced, multi-layered fear response in a human who was similarly spawned in the moment the singularity of our origins began to unravel.

Uncalculable.

Your thread spanning insistence to the contrary simply won't change that.


Z.


PS: Who let the mimes in this thread? *does his trying to escape an invisible cyclic argument routine*



EDITED for spelling -


< Message edited by Zensee -- 3/20/2008 1:34:15 AM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/20/2008 1:20:10 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Lucky - it is entirely possible for a system to be lawful and uncalculable at the same time. Meaning, there is nothing hocus pocus about how it works but the results it produces cannot be predicted in any but the most vague terms (in Canada it will probably snow in December and probably won't in July - but you can't say how much snow till fall on a particular spot and some time in the distant future).

A human mind will probably experience certain categories of perception and reaction at certain times under certain stimuli. Fear of snakes, for example. That does not mean that on a certain day, a snake, whose being was also predetermined and whose actions bring her to the precise time and place needed to evoke a particular, nuanced, multi-layered fear response in a human who was similarly spawned in the moment the singularity of our origins began to unravel.

Uncalculable.

Your thread spanning insistence to the contrary simply won't change that.


Z.

That red herring he's trying to peddle is way past its "sell by" date. It's really starting to reek. The only sensible thing to do with it is dump it in the dumpster. "Block" is my friend.

Namaste

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/20/2008 2:34:56 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Zensee it being calcuable with our current abilities is irrelevant.  Just the same as how gravity worked before we could calculate it.  Xrays caused cell damage before we knew it or could calculate it.  Things we do not know yet are affecting us

No a system can not be lawfull, and less than deterministic.  Please give an example, beyond just saying it is so.  What force could allow a lawfull system to deviate?

When you throw a dice, the conditions as it leaves your hand determine what will come up, even though it can't be calculated.

Your still scared that if you accept Materialism as part of Athiesm, I will have put you in a trap.  Thats not it at all.  Determinism can easily exist with no intent.  It's not a proof of God.

So if you can give me a non Materialist Atheism ( that includes Science), you have shown me wrong.  It would be far easier to simply provide one, or admit you can't.  Or babble about mimes if you like, it is a free forum.

Determinism is an inherent part of Materialism.  Feel free to give any sort of evidence to the contrary.  It is infact part of the definiton.

Chaos thoery and Quantum theroies are deterministic, again by definition.

All science is deterministic, that is the basis of it.

These are real cited definitions BTW, unlike the ones you and Alumbrado simply declared with no cite.

Indeed a system can be lawfull and uncalcable, for billions of years it operated with no one doing any calculations.

But are you trying to say a lawfull system can produce anything but the lawfull result?  That there can be variation in output, beyond the law?   Thats just ridiculous to even say, if you are an Atheist.

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/20/2008 12:46:11 PM   
Zensee


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Status: offline 		No lucky - there are things that are provably NONcalculable. It's not that we don't know the math it's that the math says, this cannot be calculated. Calculation does not mean someone sits down with an abbacus and does the symbolic math, it means accurately predicted or described. The universe is not a binary machine. All choices are not 0 and 1. Binary processes are calculable, regardless how vast. The universe defies calculation because the information in it is not just binary.

And no again - I did not say this "But are you trying to say a lawfull system can produce anything but the lawfull result?  That there can be variation in output, beyond the law?   Thats just ridiculous to even say, if you are an Atheist." nor is that conclusion contained in my statements except by the liberal application of straw in the shape of a man. Scour my post all you like - in fact try reading it before you make up things for me to say.

If god has nothing to do with it why is it necessary to classify a person as Atheist to qualify for special treatment as a predetermined being in this great scripted universe you propose? Now there's an absurdity. The rather simple example with the snake should make that amply evident. Determinism, as you so liberally and changingly define it to suit your mood of the day, is simply impossible and is certainly not integral to materialism. It's not a semantic matter, even if you'd stick to one deffinition of determinism and not keep moving the goal posts, your labels won't stick and are certainly not proof.

You say if I produce a three humped camel you will be proved wrong. You'd just say, 'ha- it has three humps, so it can't be a camel'.

When you prove, for a start, you understand the words atheism, science and determinism you might have a chance but if you do come to understand those things (not just the words) you will also see the absurdity of your position.


Z.


Yeah HK - I know.

< Message edited by Zensee -- 3/20/2008 12:50:19 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/20/2008 4:31:49 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Well ok Zensee, you might as well go block me, then you and Rule and Hippie can all talk without my interjecting facts.  Y'all will be much happier.

"No lucky - there are things that are provably NONcalculable. It's not that we don't know the math it's that the math says, this cannot be calculated. "  That is completely not true in an atheistic universe.  But again, you are trying to switch to the term calculated, not I.  Perhaps you should check out what a straw man argument really means. 

Actullly all the information in an Atheistic universe can broken down into Binary numbers.  Converting from different base numerical systems is not hard. 

A lawfull system operates without anyone doing any calculations, and the output is the result of the laws alone, or its not lawfull. 

Scraming about 3 humped camels instead of simply giving an example prooves my point very nicely.

I have not changed my definitons at all.
In fact, I posted them in thread with cites, unlike you.

That in Materialism the thoughts in our heads are the result of natural law is absolute fact, not something I made up.  Are you trying to play a silly word game and pretend you only accecpt the meaning of Materialism as loving possesions?  That seems rather silly to do. 

Since you are pretending you can't see the these I will repost....

ma·te·ri·al·ism
play_w("M0149300")


 (m-tîr--lzm)
n.
1. Philosophy The theory that physical matter is the only reality and that everything, including thought, feeling, mind, and will, can be explained in terms of matter and physical phenomena.
2. The theory or attitude that physical well-being and worldly possessions constitute the greatest good and highest value in life.
3. A great or excessive regard for worldly concerns.
 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Materialism
 
de·ter·min·ism
play_w("D0171300")


 (d-tûrm-nzm)
n.
The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs.
 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Determinism
 
a·the·ism
play_w("A0495200")


 (th-zm)
n.
1.
a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2. Godlessness; immorality.
 
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atheism

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RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/20/2008 4:39:59 PM   
luckydog1


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Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Real the thing is, flipping a coin is not random, just like a die.  After it leaves your hand, it experiences a set of conditions, a degree of spin, vectors in several direction, humidity, air pressure, micro variations in gravity, wind, and probably forces we don't know about.  Those conditions are run through a physical law based process, which gives a result.  Its not random.  In a Materialist Universe (as well as several of the God based models) there can be nothing at all that is random.

It is a very chaotic system, and we can't calculate the outcome.  But Chaos, as well as all scientific process, are 100% deterministic.

If someone has a non science based Atheistic model lets examine it. 

Which direction you look first is the result of your internal Brain workings, which are either Science based or based on something else.  What something else can exist in an Atheistic/Materialistic Universe?

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/20/2008 6:57:02 PM   
Real0ne


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The coin one does not really apply here but I agree.

The problem is how do you explain a null?  When one calculates without weighting which way a guy will look the computer has to now guess since left = right in as much as priority.  So when the computer spits out right and the person goes left there is a break in the chain of prior occurances negating determinism.

So if you want to identify everything in terms of feather soft determinism then sure you can say that about anything.  Which flavor of determinism are we talking about?

Determinism I think completely falls apart when faced with irrational ramdom actions that have no pattern.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/20/2008 9:31:40 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
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Status: offline 		I am talking about iron clad determinism that covers absolutly everything. 

Rationality does not matter at all.  The output of Brains is not rational.  Yet it is dervived from either Chemical reactions operating in a unique sytem, affected by all previous input, all goverened by laws.  Or it is controlled by something else.

There can be nothing random in an Atheistic universe.  A computer can not generate a random number.  It taakes values from different points in its system, and applies a forumla, to generate a number that appears random to us.  But if you knew  The input values, you would know the number.  every single time.

The same applies to Free Will.  There is indeed an illusion of it. 

There is only one form of determinism (at least within the context of the Philosophicla model of the Universe).  Either everything happens according to Scientific law (as it really is, not our current incomplete understanding), or it doesn't.

If a system has any apsect that is non determinitive, the system is non determinitive.  There is no soft determinism.  Its an either /or.   There are only scientific laws affecting events. or there is more than just scientific law affecting events.

"The problem is how do you explain a null?  When one calculates without weighting which way a guy will look the computer has to now guess since left = right in as much as priority.  So when the computer spits out right and the person goes left there is a break in the chain of prior occurances negating determinism. "

Could you define a null?  I don't understand your example here?   How does a computer not knowing which way a person will look first, negate determinism?  That simply shows a useless computer program.  People look which direction they do first for a variety of reasons.  I usually look left first, because that is the direction that an oncoming car could hit me from first (and a lot of skateboarding and biking when younger where I would not stop before crossing a street.) , but thats just a habit in my mind, created by the unique composition and chemistry of my brain, which is controlled by determinism (at least if the Athiests/Materialists are right). 

Can you give an example of , "irrational ramdom actions that have no pattern"?

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RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/20/2008 9:44:17 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		And real, I am not saying that Determinism = calcuable.  Someone else simply made that up, claiming a fake definiton they would not cite, then they huffed off to block me. 

Determinism says that if the location and vector of every aspect of the universe was known, and all the effects were understood, the Universe could be played back and forth like a DVD.  In fact, we can't know all the values from our perspectives for a few reasons.  1 we can't determine the vector and mass of a particle, so we can't collect the data.  and 2 the model would have to as complicated as the existing universe plus more to do the analyzing.  I am sure there are others.

But according to Athiestic science/ Materialism, the Universe does work like that.  There can be nothing random or outside the results of the Laws.  The initial conditions were set(either by the conditions pre big bang or by some sort of God force), and it plays out according to law. Period.  Nothing irrational (outside the laws) can happen.  Irrational decisions by animals sometimes pay off in a big way, hence we can see an evolutionary advantedge in a degree of "irrational thinking", for example pick a fight you are sure to lose, but get in a lucky punch and win, then you get laid as a result. 


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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/21/2008 4:56:12 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		No lucky - all the information exchanged in the universe is NOT binary. The universe is a stew of predictable, quasi-random and truly random events. Let me repeat that last bit for you - TRULY RANDOM events. Non-calculable, chaotic, unpredictable...

Determinism DOES equal calculable - how could it not - unless you are using one of your cutom definitions again. As with all your key arguments, there is no basis in fact or they betray vast gaps in your understanding.

quote:

There is only one form of determinism (at least within the context of the Philosophicla model of the Universe).  Either everything happens according to Scientific law (as it really is, not our current incomplete understanding), or it doesn't. 


Oops. Judging from the above you DO understand that determinism equals calculable so either you are ignoring your own dogma or you simply don't understand the disinctions you are making.

Fortunately for you, your above quoted statement is, of course, pure clap-trap. True chaos, randomness and noncalculable events are legion in the universe. You might as well propose a universe without atoms. Guess you're off the hook for inconistency now. (That was a close one.)


And this -

quote:

A lawfull system operates without anyone doing any calculations, and the output is the result of the laws alone, or its not lawfull. 


Makes it quite clear that you didn't read this -

quote:

Calculation does not mean someone sits down with an abbacus and does the symbolic math, it means accurately predicted or described.




Which leads nicely to the matter of the three-humped camel.

Firstly, you do not get to name some arbitrary proof (producing the three-humped camel) based on your own invented, self referential terminology (Atheistic Determinist Scientificic Universe or whatever it happens to be today).

Secondly, the proof you name ("...if you can give me a non Materialist Atheism ( that includes Science), you have shown me wrong.") is a chimera generated by your own hypothesis. You are asking me to disprove your hypothesis with terms and ideas created solely to support that hypothesis. That's like a creationist saying - show me where in the bible it says that natural selection is the primary mechanism of species evolution and I'll embrace Darwin!

Thirdly, even if I were to produce the three-humped camel, you would simply dismiss it as not humpy enough or insufficiently camelish owing to it's extra hump... You have dismissed all evidence in fact and all revealed errors in your thinking on the grounds that they do not support your ill conceived hypothesis.

You have done this over many pages and in two separate and unrelated theads. You are apparently impervious to reason, pretty impressive for a person with an IQ of 200.


Z.

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RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/21/2008 7:42:27 AM   
Real0ne


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and that sums it up quite sufficiently.





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/21/2008 10:22:39 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		First of all, I have never made a claim as to my IQ on these boards ever.  So your not even paying attention to what I am saying. And can't even keep track of who you are talking to.  But managed to work it in in an insulting way.  For the record I tested in the high 140s when a child, but who really cares. 


What does calculation mean? 

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
cal·cu·la·tion      /ˌkælkyəˈleɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kal-kyuh-ley-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun



1.
the act or process of calculating; computation.



2.
the result or product of calculating: His calculations agree with ours.



3.
an estimate based on the known facts; forecast: Her calculation of the building costs proved quite accurate.



4.
forethought; prior or careful planning.



5.
scheming selfishness.  

It clearly does not mean what you claim. "Calculation does not mean someone sits down with an abbacus and does the symbolic math, it means accurately predicted or described"   In fact you are the one making up and changing definitions.  This is the 5th or 6th tem, I have defined wth a cite, as opposed to one you made up.  I did read your made up definiton.  I simply checked and since it is 100% false, simply said It was wrong and moved on.  Feel free to cite the defintion you are using. 


Its not my hypothesis.  I didn't make it up.  Materialism and determinism and such ideas go back centuries.  It is the basis of science.  No one has to make a description for it to work, the Universe chugged along fine for billions of years with no one to observe or predict or calculate anything, according to science

Please name a random act?  One that does not directly follow from scientific laws.  The entire concept of Science (Modern science) is Materialist based, which is inherently deterministic.  All of this is centuries old.

So instead of giving me an example you babble about 3 humped camels, and what you know I will say if you gave an example.

the fact is you can't.

And you know it.

To me this is just very funny.  The idea I put out, has obviously got you worked up enough that you want to chase me around trying to debunk it.  But you refuse to give a single example, and have to resort to making up definitions.  Threaten a public ignore.  That always makes me laugh.  Go ahead I dare you.  Run from the ideas you can't handle.  You spend all this time saying why you won't answer a qustion.  This just makes me laugh.


Zensee, was it you who was trying to argue that Marxism is not inherantly Atheistic?  Dialectal Materialism (what Marx called Marxism), is a form of Materialism, and Deterministic. 

Go study Chaos theory ( the real one not the one from the Dinosuar movies)  It appears random, but is not.  They are 100% deterministic, even though too complex to be calculated.  Things like the movement of smoke, used to have be done with apporiximations via Chaos theory.  Now Computers are able to do a decent job of Modeleing the behavoir of smoke. 

Chaos is not random, even though it might appear as such from our perspective it is not random.

According to science nothing is nor can it be.

The fact that we can't calculate (I am using the real cited definition, not your made up one) something, does not mean it is unlawfull or random.

Please give me an example of a random act in a Materialist system. 

Or just be satisfyied that you got realone to agree with you. 

Determinism means theoretically calcuable if we had ALL the data, which we can't get.  And yeah absolutly everything is Deterministic in an Atheistic Materialist Universe, according to science.

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/21/2008 10:25:13 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		"self referential terminology (Atheistic Determinist Scientificic Universe or whatever it happens to be today)."

No where in any of those terms do I refer to myself, nor have I anywhere in my argument.  

What is your made up definition of "Self Referential"?

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/21/2008 12:53:28 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

2.
the result or product of calculating: His calculations agree with ours.



3.
an estimate based on the known facts; forecast: Her calculation of the building costs proved quite accurate.




Lucky I gave you an example but you refuse to accept it.  you cannot predict which way a person will look first, left or right.    You cannot calculate scientific algorithyms without a calculator.






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/21/2008 12:54:29 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/21/2008 4:53:05 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Real, because I am not making the claim that micro events, such as how a persons internal brain works, can actually be calculated/predicted.  But that the workings of the brain are due to chemical reactions, with nothing controlling them but scienctific laws, which is absolute basic science/materialism.  Unless there is something beyond scientific law affecting things.

Calculation is not my term. Determinism is my term, and that which I am defending.  I have stated several times why we can't calculate everything.  But according to science, everything is theoretically calcuable.  Not a single event in a chaotic system is uncalcuable or random, it just appears that way from our perspective, because there are millions of events happening at the same time.

Things do not have to be calculated to actually happen, that makes no sense at all.  Things happened for billions of years with no one doing any calculation, at least according to science.

"You cannot calculate scientific algorithyms without a calculator"   By this do you mean calulator as someone/thing doing calculations, or calculator as a proto computer. 

Scientific law is not math, it can be expressed in math.  No one has to chrunch numbers for physics to work.  By chrunching numbers we can make accurate predictions about how physics will operate in the actuall world.  We do not understand how the mind works yet, but if we did, it would certainly be calcuable, and it certainly conforms to scientific laws, if you are an Atheist.  For conspiricy "mind controll" to work, the brain has to not be random in its operation.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/22/2008 3:52:20 AM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

(JO) Namaste....hmmmm... how strange to see that word after reading the above paragraph.


Given the literal meaning of Namaste ('Salutations'), and the further meaning of 'salutation' as a method for cleaning up communications errors between different computer devices, it seems quite appropriate.


Quotations taken from Wikipedia on "Namaste"

"In recent times, and more globally, the term "namaste" has come to be especially associated with yoga and spiritual meditation all over the world. In this context, it has been viewed in terms of a multitude of very complicated and poetic meanings which tie in with the spiritual origins of the word. Some examples:
  • "I honor the Spirit in you which is also in me." -- attributed to author Deepak Chopra[citation needed]
  • "I honor the place in you in which the entire Universe dwells, I honor the place in you which is of Love, of Integrity, of Wisdom and of Peace, When you are in that place in you, and I am in that place in me, we are One."[3][4]
  • "I salute the God within you."
  • "I recognize that we are all equal."[5]
  • "The entire universe resides within you."[5]
  • "The divine peace in me greets the divine peace in you."[5]
  • "Your spirit and my spirit are ONE." -- attributed to Lilias Folan's shared teachings from her journeys to India.[citation needed]
  • "That which is of the Divine in me greets that which is of the Divine in you."[6]
  • "The Divinity within me perceives and adores the Divinity within you".[7]
[edit] References ^ Oxford English Dictionary, Draft Revision June 2003.^ a b Sivasiva Palani (November 1991). "Never Shake Hands With God". Hinduism Today. ^ Yoga Heals Us (2007). Yoga Philosophyy - Namaste. Yoga Heals Us. Retrieved on November 10, 2007.^ Dass, Ram (1976). Grist For The Mill. Unity Press. ^ a b c LoveToKnow (2007). The Meaning of Namaste. LoveToKnow. Retrieved on November 10, 2007.^ TEDTalks (2005). Rev. Tom Honey: How could God have allowed the tsunami?. Video Podcast. TED Conferences. Retrieved on November 10, 2007.^ Finnegan, Dave (1993). Zen of Juggling. Jugglebug. ISBN 9780961552152.""


Language and it's usage is dynamic and changes to serve changing cultural needs. To adhere to an ancient definition of a Pali or Sanskrit word seems to me to serve no purpose other than perhaps an esoteric, academic one. It behooves me , rather to consider the current understanding and usages for the Sautation"Nanaste"  because it puts me in mind that "the "Other" and "I" are One and the same. And , perhaps, shortcircuits the "need" to engage in and "win" an argument.


< Message edited by cjan -- 3/22/2008 3:55:53 AM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/22/2008 7:41:02 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		On second thought before I ramble on about this to much further your position is that there can be no free will and that everything is deterministic in an atheistic materialist world.  (the nutshell version)  correct?  If not summarize it.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/22/2008 7:49:58 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Cain't hep mahself... part one: Quackery - 3/22/2008 9:34:36 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		That would be exactly correct real, though I would add, there is the appearance/illusion of free will and ranndomness from our perspective, so we should live as if we do have will.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 80
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