RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!"

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RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 5:45:33 PM

mstrj69

Posts: 295
Joined: 5/27/2004
Status: offline

1) Fast and abstain on days appointed
2) Attend Mas on Sundays and Holidays of Obligation
3) Contribute to the support of the church
4) Receive communion during the Easter time
5) Confess your sins at least once a year
6) Obey the church laws concerning marriage
7) To evangelize and tell others about the church

Those are 7 other rules the church made up that can not be found in the bible. Take an old bible and look up the definition of adultry, one of the two parties has to be married for this sin to happen. Take it further and if there is penetration but no orgasm, that is not a sin. The current church rules about abortion and birth control go back to the rule about how you must propogate the faith. This too was a man made rule and was created when the church wanted and needed more members. The various popes have had new rules developed under them however while they may have changed some of the old rules, they never changed the ten commandments.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 141

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 5:53:07 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

How so? Is it politically incorrect to hate the fucking Nazis now?

He (Popeye's preacher, if I have the story right) wrote someone off permanently for an adolescent act, and so have you.

But, fair play, that preacher seemed to be doing it case-by-case, whereas you're willing to condemn an entire category of people, that being anyone who ever espoused Nazism for any set of reasons. Insofar as that you seem to have trumped him.

You usually strike me as someone who tries to think clearly, that's the biggest part of why I never skip over your posts. This blanket condemnation of yours doesn't seem like the product of clear thought, though. In the present context it also seems a little ironic.

But there is plenty of that in this thread.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 142

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 6:12:34 PM

PanthersMom

Posts: 2215
Joined: 11/26/2007
From: Cleveland Ohio
Status: offline

i'm sorry, i'm human. i cannot forget that the man was involved in something that killed so many of my relatives from the part of the family that stayed in europe. i'm not as forgiving as the lord i suppose, but that's one fault i think he'd understand.
PM

_____________________________

That which does not kill me, better run pretty damn fast

I miss my ex, but my aim is improving!

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 143

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 6:15:13 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

No fair wanting me to be "serious" but since its you...

quote:

Seriously, it's one thing to not believe at all. Perhaps someday you will find something. Perhaps not. But for those who claim to believe but think it is funny to make jokes about preferring to go to hell rather than thinking for themselves and realizing that <insert natural and harmless human pleasure here> is not going to get you a one way ticket to the flames, then I truly rue the day you find yourself in those flames because you assumed you would never end up there.

My perspective is this. God or Fate (your choice) brought me to LA. In LA I found more happiness than I've ever know in my life. For that to occur a couple planes had to go into my office building in NYC. Should I feel guilt or joy? Is God/Fate generous or a sadist?

Meanwhile, I have 'faith' in beth's faith. she has enough for both of us. Let me put it another way. Without her in my life, I'd have no doubt regarding my doubts.

Take her out of the equation and it comes down to reading history, direct contact, and first hand research. Religion as a whole has killed and caused more pain and suffering than the lack of religion. Humanity's actions are the biggest hindrance to humanity's spirituality. The industry of religion makes the belief in any religion's dogma pragmatically impossible.

We've grown as a civilization. Religions have chosen not to. It takes a child-like faith that I don't believe possible in the face of modern society. As a child it was easier to believe in Santa Claus than it was God. After all, Santa left presents, God gave "grace" - try taking that back to the mall!

But it shouldn't be about materialism right? Than why the worry about "rich" or "poor"? Why focus on any earthy issues? Pollution is only a temporary condition for living in a world in a relative time inconsequential in the face of immortality in heaven. Wealth is a burden because it provides access to better medical care, leading to a longer life, keeping you from heaven and God. Poverty on the other hand, leads to a shorter time on this earthly plain of existence. It would seem more appropriate for religions to pity the wealthy than to try to be one.

When humanity left its childhood, going from suspecting that comets were signs from God, to knowing they were celestial bodies subject to scientific explanation Religion didn't evolve with the knowledge. Instead religion, in the form of the Catholic Church, stood in the way. They needed to extend our belief in Santa long into adolescence. That is where they failed and are failing.

When the switch was made from Latin to common language mass much of the 'mystery' was lost. With it went many of the 'faithful'. Now that the Mass was in a language understood many sought to replace its mystery with something else. I think this move is an attempt to reestablish a connection with those disenfranchised. This latest treatise is an attempt to merge, or at least become identified with 'New Age' religion. It's a corporate decision recognizing that although the poor and less educated generate numbers they don't generate cash. They envy the gods of 'global warming' and of 'drug control'; merely an extension of long ignored moral laws. They want in on the cash cow being milked by Al Gore and others of his ilk.

Yet - as logical as the scientific evidence is, the closer we get to a 'unified theory', when the smallest particle of matter is finally uncovered; I'll stipulate that the "Big Bang" can be just another name for God. That said - I'm sure that I'd rather not get to the same place that many other people desire - called Heaven. By many descriptions their heaven would be my Hell, and vice-versa I'm sure.

Meanwhile, I'll stick with my one sin of avoidance - hypocrisy and be an advocate against organizational hypocrisy. Admittedly I've been a sinner. But I do my best and am careful to not deliberately 'sin' again.

Serious enough?

(in reply to GoddessDustyGold)

Post #: 144

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 6:22:47 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

How so? Is it politically incorrect to hate the fucking Nazis now?

He (Popeye's preacher, if I have the story right) wrote someone off permanently for an adolescent act, and so have you.

Perhaps... But there is a world of difference between jerking off and JOINING THE FUCKING HITLER YOUTH.

I do think that SUPPORTING AND WORKING FOR THE NAZI CAUSE does permanently stain your soul. I don't understand, myself, how anyone who had worked with for the Nazis couldn't keep from blowing their brains out in remorse for their heinous acts.

quote:

You usually strike me as someone who tries to think clearly, that's the biggest part of why I never skip over your posts. This blanket condemnation of yours doesn't seem like the product of clear thought, though. In the present context it also seems a little ironic.

But there is plenty of that in this thread.

Maybe you have a point. I think I'll always hate Nazis, though. My G-d isn't into the whole "Forgiveness" thing, anyway...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 145

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 6:29:54 PM

HopeLost

Posts: 80
Joined: 2/7/2007
Status: offline

wow looks like im gonna have lots of company!

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 146

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 6:35:45 PM

xBullx

Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline

Holy fuck you're obsessive.....

I think less of your opinions everytime you hit the keyboard.

You have no fucking idea of what this man seen, heard, felt and went through as a boy and yet you have such a holier than thou opinion of him.

lol................. You are the people you hate.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 147

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 7:19:48 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Perhaps... But there is a world of difference between jerking off and JOINING THE FUCKING HITLER YOUTH.

I agree. But I wasn't talking about the different things which Popeye and Joe Ratzinger had done. I was talking about the similar things you and Popeye's preacher had done.

quote:

I do think that SUPPORTING AND WORKING FOR THE NAZI CAUSE does permanently stain your soul. I don't understand, myself, how anyone who had worked with for the Nazis couldn't keep from blowing their brains out in remorse for their heinous acts.

I wonder whom you have to thank for that whole "soul staining" aspect of your theology.

Do you really see a brief membership in that youth group, at that relatively early stage in the history of Nazism, counting--to a brain-blowing-out degree--as working for the cause? I would tend to think that many innocent youth were victimized by the Nazis in that whole youth group deal. I think it might be one more thing to hold against the leadership and many responsible adults within the group.

I would hardly ask any child who ever put on the dun shirt and swastika to stand in front of a gun. It isn't directly analogous but it is still a little too redolent of asking anyone who happened to be born to Jewish of Roma parents to line up for the chambers, in my view.

quote:

Maybe you have a point. I think I'll always hate Nazis, though. My G-d isn't into the whole "Forgiveness" thing, anyway...

Thanks. Myself, I try to roll with the hate-the-sin motif, insofar as I'm not sure that hating a person isn't sin-ish in itself. Whether it is or not I'm confident there was some Nazi party member somewhere whose sins in the aggregate were less eggregious than mine have been so far. If I hafta hate him then in fairness I'd better hate myself too. I just don't see that whole approach pointing toward anything virtuous.

Not admitting the existence of forgiveness, though, that kind of strikes me as stingy. I think you deserve better. But I'm not gonna try to tell you how to find your way, or your heart.

That said, a lot of people who spell it G-d believe in atonement. Is there room for that in your theology?

< Message edited by Noah -- 3/10/2008 7:48:24 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 148

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 7:52:29 PM

DominorSomnium

Posts: 75
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominorSomnium
Thats one of the coolest parts in tombstone. and merc, were did you find the hitler youth mention, I am doing a paper about nazi social organizations for history.

DS, There is virtually a limitless list of references. For expediency sake I used the Internet version of 'Reader's Digest' - Wikipedia. I gave the source in the quote, but maybe it wasn't obvious. Start there - It will give you plenty of places to dig further.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI

quote:

Pleasant evening.
Back at 'ya!

PS - Now that's 2 prayers you need to say on my behalf!

PPS - Tell you what - send them to beth. she's recovering from surgery and is already on a much clearer path to heaven. Me - My seat awaits on the frigid 9th level, at the table with Brutus, Cassius, Judas and Satan. Maybe I can talk them into a winner take all - no limit Texas Hold 'Em game to rule hell.

Bringing to mind Milton's words on the subject: "It is better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven". Learned from the "Space Seed" episode of the original Star Trek series.

Didn't see the link in my migraine induced haze, thanks. Benidicts father was in the SS towards the end of the war h owever, but again, so were alot of people. Alot of the SS was clerical paper pushers, ones who pushed paper for others deaths. There was a good book a few years back about how IBM was connected to the holocaust by giving the Nazis punchcard machines for free to tally things. This was just before the holocaust started, and they never even ask for the purpose, the SS said please and IBM said sure! anyways way out in left field there. I actually went down to the old church a couple blocks away and prayed for a bit ;) and I'll pray for your beth, goo folk are hard to come by. And the Milton quote is a good one. night everyone

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 149

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 8:24:27 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

I think a public confession and apology to the victims of Nazism from the Pope would be a welcome gesture of goodwill, and a show of clear rejection of his past. He was fourteen, not four, so he knew where he was going. Just my opinion.

_____________________________

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 150

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 8:31:16 PM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

No discussion like this on CM would be complete without a mention of
The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.

http://www.thesisters.org/

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd

I went to a fetish ball that had Latex nun and priests running around doing all sorts of hellacious things... I still get all warm and tingly when I think about it.

Gwyn,

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Gwynvyd)

Post #: 151

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 9:41:54 PM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

It's an interesting post Merc ... and while I respect your right to your opinion, I tend to not agree.

You can point to the ills of the church, a bad priest, a lust for money, enough hypocracy to fill an ocean ... and I can point to some priests who are good people, massive charitable efforts, and point out that the hypocracy of man exists in all things, and really has little to do with faith.

Many Catholics find comfort in the good things that can be found in the church, and honor the traditions. There is little doubting and no defense for, the many ills of the church ... but they are the ills of man, the ills of the world we live in. Looking for a church of perfection, in this world full of flawed people, is empty work.

If leaving the church would ease the ills of the world, I would leave tomorrow. If every Catholic left the church tomorrow, the only result would be the loss of the many good things done by the church, while the ills of the church would remain, moved to another venue.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 152

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 10:07:58 PM

Smith117

Posts: 1447
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

It's an interesting post Merc ... and while I respect your right to your opinion, I tend to not agree.

I don't think it's a bad thing that you don't agree. Merc's views, unlike most of organized religion, do not require you to agree or to share the beliefs. Organized religion on the other hand......

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 153

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 10:18:48 PM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

Someone here or in the many "religion" based posts, insisted that people needed to agree or share beliefs? I must have missed that.

All I have seen over the past few of these threads, is some (very few) of the people that don't believe, elevating themselves above those that do. Even in this thread, we were told that people believing in hell are simplistic. I notice you didn't respond to that. May I consider that intentional?

Those not practicing organized religion, are no more tolerant than those that do. They are just equally intolerant, in their own fashion.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to Smith117)

Post #: 154

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 10:28:47 PM

Griswold

Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline

(I'm still working on all the old sins).

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 155

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 10:40:22 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

No fair wanting me to be "serious" but since its you...

I am flattered that you choose to address this! Sincerely!
Actually, I was using the fast reply and I did address you specifically in the beginning of the post, but it was more a general response since there is so much joking going on about a preference for hell.
In truth, Merc, I agree with much of what you say. I am impressed with Caitlin's answer, too. And that is somewhat My point. For those who need it, I suppose organized religion can be a good thing. It is human, therefore there will always be bad. But there is undeniable good, also. And I truly would hate to consider the condition of the world if there was no basic moral rule. We will never have the Utopia that so many seem to crave these days and think is achievable. That is promised in the hereafter. I am not a humanist. I do not have faith in the human condition and I do not believe it can cured. Not with all the marches, legislation, public sentiment, political correctness and money in the world.
It is always important for people to use their minds and educate themselves and draw their own conclusions regarding spiritual matters. If they do not believe, they they do not. But if they do, then they should also know that it is okay to study, read different opinions, learn and make their own decisions. I may have been born Catholic, and it is a church (when I go) that is most comfortable for Me so far as a service is concerned, but much of the dogma (control issues, all!) was benched for Me long ago. Hence I state I am a "sorta kinda" lapsed Catholic, but I do not throw away My basic faith because of the human flaws that are everywhere...even in the churches.
I only wish you well, as you know. Everything has a reason...even 9-11, as you now know. I do not believe that God is orchestrating everything. What I do believe is that God is well aware of all the "free will" choices that will be made. S/He is omnicient. Because we do have "free will", everything is simply permitted to occur in the natural course of events. That does not mean that S/He does not have an infinite amount of grace and forgiveness for it is the plan that no one should be lost and all given every opportunity for eternal life. There will come a time when the patience will run out. Only S/He knows that time. This is My belief: There is eternal life and all will end up someplace.
Heaven, to Me, would be eternal peace and unconditional love. I really prefer that to the alternative.

My best always to both you and Beth.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 156

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 10:47:52 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I think a public confession and apology to the victims of Nazism from the Pope would be a welcome gesture of goodwill, and a show of clear rejection of his past. He was fourteen, not four, so he knew where he was going. Just my opinion.

Bold emphasis Mine.

I am wondering how you feel about all the 14 year olds who are tried as adults when they commit actual crimes?
This is a sincere question, kittenSol.

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 157

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 11:42:28 PM

Gwynvyd

Posts: 4949
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"membership being legally required after December 1939 (though 10-20% did disobey the rule) "

So, he didn't have the INTEGRITY to stand up for his beliefs, although 10-20% of the population did....

That says it all, doesn't it.

those who stood up died...

I do not see you marching on Washington launching yourself over the gate at the White House to go slam your fists on the Chimp in Charge's desk....

It would have the same effect. Only not joinging the Hitler Youth would get not only you, but your whole family killed.

You'd just scare the shit out of the boys at the White House, you'd be on the news as a crack pot.. and they would scrutinize your whole life.

He was a Kid. Some times you have to put some common sense into things people... Com'on.

I would not expect my son to go do some thing stupid like that. I would rather want him alive. You fight the bad guys by living another day... some times rushing the hill is not the smartest thing to do.

( Esp. when it comes to fanatics like the Nazis.)

Gwyn

_____________________________

Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 158

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/10/2008 11:47:20 PM

Gwynvyd

Posts: 4949
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

From where I sit, "Once a Nazi, always a Nazi."

that would be every man woman and child born in Germany....

People who blindly take the same view as you will say as hateful things about us long after good ol King George is removed. Since we all enabled him.. and did nothing to stop his BS.

Niiiiice.

A lot of people tried to help the Jews.. a lot of people wanted nothing to do with the Nazis but were afraid for thier lives.. and were well out numbered.
Again knowing history helps us to not recreate it.

Gwyn

_____________________________

Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 159

RE: Pope - "New 'sins'; more ways to go to hell!&... - 3/11/2008 12:05:38 AM

Gwynvyd

Posts: 4949
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

PPS - Tell you what - send them to beth. she's recovering from surgery and is already on a much clearer path to heaven. Me - My seat awaits on the frigid 9th level, at the table with Brutus, Cassius, Judas and Satan. Maybe I can talk them into a winner take all - no limit Texas Hold 'Em game to rule hell.

Bringing to mind Milton's words on the subject: "It is better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven". Learned from the "Space Seed" episode of the original Star Trek series.

Well concider more prayers sent her and your way. *smiles*
Milton was an interesting man. Funny how so many took Dante's concept of hell and ran with it as the Gospel truth. *chuckles* We were talking about that in church. ( my church doesnt normaly talk about sin or hell... 99% of us do not believe in those concepts... ) but it was interesting hearing my very wise Gay, Hindu Minsiter talk about reading The Inferno as a young boy. Talk about troublesome.. he was doomed in the first couple of chapters. LOL His sermon on it was funny and delightful. I about lost it when he said that usualy when UU minsters when asked about sin they just offer Coffee and Doughnuts. ( We each walk our own path.. but together.. and most of us are a mish mosh of many spiritualites. So "sin" is a concept that is hard to answer. ) Plus we always have coffee and food... I am surprised we all dont weight 300lbs a peice.
Some how he did cover the 7 "old" deadlies... with congregants doing our little speaches on them ourselves. It was good.. and usualy humorus. Some times sad. But never angry. (Wrathfulness was the one that made us all cry )~ our fav. little old Lady who is loving as anyone in this world could ever be dreamt of being gave us the speach on that one.. we thought she had lost it.. and was confused. She is too kind to know anything about wrath. *makes a face* but she told us of her childhood and a wrathful mother who didnt want her, and many ( over 10 ) siblings who didnt want her around.. as it was less attention and less food for them. She has known wrathfulness.. but did not let it effect her life as she grew. The little sweetie only comes to my ribcage.. and I get "tackle hugged" by her each and every Sunday. I hope to be like her some day.

I personaly prefer the phrase "Heaven don't want me.. and hell is afraid I will take over." ( as seen on a T-shirt my mom bought me.)

Gwyn

_____________________________

Self avowed Geek-Girl~
Come for the boobs, stay for the brains.

Be the kinda woman that when your feet hit the floor in the morning the Devil says "Oh shit, shes awake..."
~ Softandshy's "Shiney"

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 160

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