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Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 4:27:02 AM

cyberdude611

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The prime minister of Poland was at the White House Monday making more aggressive calls to the United States to modernize Poland's military. Poland wants the US to help upgrade 17 areas of the military and wants short and medium-range missile defense systems along with the the long-range missile defense system the US wants to place on Polish soil.

The Czech Republic is also asking for more help to upgrade their defense systems.

The uptick in defense negotiations is apparently in response to Russia's growing influence in the region. Last month, Putin made a shocking statement that Russia will aim nuclear missiles towards Europe, and even towards former Soviet allies, if Ukraine and/or Georgia attempts to join NATO or the EU. Both Ukraine and Georgia have pro-western governments that has said wants to join NATO in the future.
Such language is making many governments in Eastern Europe nervous that Russia is trying to increase their sphere of influence. That fear is provoking those countries to ask the west for help in increasing their defenses.

Starting to look like the Cold War all over again, eh? The next 20 years will be interesting. Because few countries in eastern Europe want to be under the Kremlin's influence. There is potential for some serious friction here.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080311/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_poland;_ylt=Auu1JKNaf3b2uoGzmAHnmR6s0NUE

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 4:38:59 AM

RealityLicks

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Yeah, google "Cold Peace" -- that should get you going. Putin is increasingly ramping up pressure on Nato, Nato recently started talking publicly about first strike options. Last year, there were a few occasions when Russian bombers attempted entry into UK airspace. Fighters were scrambled to escort them out. The Russian Air force has begun routinely testing western air defences in a way unseen since the fifties.

However, aren't they offering to pay for these weapons? Wanting the US as a trading and military ally isn't quite the same as wanting them to run your country's policy and affairs. Or sending Marines to oust your president because he's Socialist - as the US did in Haiti, Grenada etc

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 4:45:05 AM

LadyEllen

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I somehow doubt that Russia would seriously think about nuking us any more; their wealth depends on supplying gas and oil to us and its bad for business to kill your customers. In any case, by turning off such supplies they can achieve any reasonable objective to which they aspire without risking their own population through the inevitable retaliatory strikes that would occur.

Same applies from this side of course - one has to keep the Russians sweet as much as possible to preserve supplies of gas and oil and no one is going to destroy the supply they depend on by making a first strike against Russia - for which the retaliation would be just as destructive.

We're set to get ourselves into similar unfortunate and pointless entanglements over this as we have in the Middle East; and all we have to do is get ourselves off of fossil fuels to avoid both situations. But then such a move would not be profitable for those who finance elections from the profits of fossil fuels and warmongering.

E

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 4:45:37 AM

meatcleaver

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If you look at opinion polls around 70% of both populations don't want American installations. The mayor of the town in the Czech Republic where the US want to site radar said, "We have not got out of one empire to join another." and "..the government refuses to listen to the people.". In the same programme the Polish mayor of the town where the airfield is where the US wants to place its missiles, which was once a Soviet base, said, 'We don't want the Americans here, not in the form of replacement Soviets anyway.' He went onto complain that the Polish government won't answer his quieries. No one has suggested that the US government doesn't have European governments on their side but they don't have the major part European population on their side. Most of the European population according to opinion polls see the US as a greater threat than Russia.

Russia has a population of 150 million, its economy isn't even as big as London's economy so they idea they are a great threat is just propaganda. As for neuclear weapons aimed at Europe, no doubt Europe has nuclear weapons aimed at them so MAD is in place. The last thing Europe needs is the import of American paranoia which is Strausian philosophy of instilling fear in the population to keep it towing the line. It obviously works in America but the majority of Europeans don't buy it. The majority of Europeans thought the USSR was incapable of invading western Europe and since the ending of the Cold war wee found out they were right, the Soviets couldn't organize a shopping trip. I doubt the Russians can do better looking at the debacle in Chechna.

All this is being driven by fear and its totally bullshit. Obviousily right wing Americans love shitting their pants and arming themselves to the teeth to fight shadows but hopefully there will be enough Europeans who see through the nonsense and can stop their governments kow towing to America and its paranoid vision of the world.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/11/2008 5:02:42 AM >

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 4:48:21 AM

RealityLicks

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By Ellen's argument, as soon as we do get ourselves off fossil fuels, we'd be free to nuke away to our heart's content. This is to do with tomorrow's supply not today's - and tomorrow's supply will come from the Arctic.

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 4:54:05 AM

LadyEllen

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But RL, we dont need fossil fuels - we have everything in place right now to get off of fossil fuels. No need to venture into the Arctic.

And quite why we'd want to nuke anyone because we dont need fossil fuels I dont understand? The same MAD strategy applies, whatever the circumstances, and its far more profitable to sell our non fossil fuel technologies than destroy potential customers.

E

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 4:56:18 AM

meatcleaver

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What we need in Europe is unity and politicians with vision and not politicians that keep running off to Washington. When European politicians keep on talking about national identity like many populist governments do, they really mean they want an American identity instead because that is their alternative to being European. Europeans need to wake up but to do that we need to realise Europe is a common culture with common values. America is related but has developed differently and has different values. We shouldn't be defending American corporate values by allowing American military on our soil. We should unite and seek a more equal relationship with America, not one of vassal states.

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 4:58:48 AM

RealityLicks

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Technology and vested interests are separate entities, though as demonstrated by the Iraq adventure. So the race to exploit the Arctic's resources, ruinous as we all know it will be, will go ahead regardless. There's a reason for the Russian bombers overhead, the flags in teh Arctic and the missiles that down "faulty" satellites.

I'll return to the thread a little later, God and Mammon permitting.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 3/11/2008 5:00:11 AM >

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 5:09:39 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

We're set to get ourselves into similar unfortunate and pointless entanglements over this as we have in the Middle East; and all we have to do is get ourselves off of fossil fuels to avoid both situations. But then such a move would not be profitable for those who finance elections from the profits of fossil fuels and warmongering.

E

Yep. We need to free ourselves from the American military-industrial complex. If Americans want to be serfs to the American military-industrial complex, that is for them. I suppose it is their military-industrial complex after all.

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 5:13:41 AM

cyberdude611

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What pissed Russia off is during the 1990s and early 2000s....many of the former soviet republics tried to move away from Russia. Georgia, Krygyzstan, Armenia, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania all signed defense and economic deals with the west as soon they were able to after the Soviet Union dissolved. In fact the Armenians have a rather large lobby based in Washington that has a lot of influence on the US Congress (that was displayed last year where tensions between the US and Turkey got put on ice). Now Ukraine, which is a country that is extremely important to Russia both economically and militarily, has become more and more pro-west. If Ukraine joins NATO or the EU....it's checkmate for Moscow. And Russia is well aware of this. They will never be able to regain their military or economic power they once had. That's why they are trying to regain their influence very quickly to prevent that from happening. That's why the Kremlin tried to have the Ukrainian president assassinated a few years ago.

So they are trying to flex their muscle a little to remind people that Russia is still there and alive...

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 5:19:19 AM

LadyEllen

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I agree RL.

And we have two choices;
1) to continue as now, and squabble over oil and gas for decades, maybe even centuries to come - with all the expenses of armament to protect that which we have squabbled over successfully, the potential for conflict that goes with that and the continuation of pollution worldwide and especially in those relatively untouched places (the Arctic, and probably soon also the Antarctic) where we go squabbling. Whilst a few of us get very wealthy indeed from all this squabbling, the monies which were spent on the squabble are derived from most of the rest of us, rendering us peasants the poorer.

2) to decide right now to move away from fossil fuel reliance, building a whole new economy based on alternative power sources, with the opportunity to develop wealth which is not reliant on the spoils of conflict in faraway places, and whose wealth spreads throughout the population. And as a spin off, we also get to live in less polluted local environments, and the warmongers still get to sell their wares to defend us as now and they get to sell them also to those who choose to squabble over fossil fuels. And we are independent of everyone else on the planet.

But Option 1 is what we'll be going with, thanks to "leaders" who suckle at the teat of the few who will benefit hugely from Option 1, and who will think not for one moment about sending we peasants and our children off to die for their profits in the midnight sun at the poles. At least we might get to die in fresh air, which is more than could be said had we died at home under their magnanimous rule.

E

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 5:20:23 AM

xBullx

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Ahhhh, the big Chess Board................who's move is it anyway?

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 5:25:10 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

If Ukraine joins NATO or the EU....it's checkmate for Moscow. And Russia is well aware of this. They will never be able to regain their military or economic power they once had. That's why they are trying to regain their influence very quickly to prevent that from happening. That's why the Kremlin tried to have the Ukrainian president assassinated a few years ago.

Russia never had military and economic power in the first place, they had nuclear weapons! That was enough to keep the west at bay. All the intelligence that has come out since the Cold War was that the Soviets were incapable of invading the west, something which many in the west believed but were constantly fed with the propaganda that the USSR was a threat. Afghanistan proved how much a thrat the Soviets were and Chechna proves how much a threat Russia is. What we are being drip fed again is propaganda, no doubt in an attempt to keep us in place.

The Russian Bear always growls nowandagain because no one is listening to it but tell me, when in history has Russia invaded the west? Now tell me when in history has the west invaded Russia?

Pardon?

Yeah, the Russians historically has something to fear of the west, which is the reason for its behaviour.

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 5:53:27 AM

Gwynvyd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I somehow doubt that Russia would seriously think about nuking us any more; their wealth depends on supplying gas and oil to us and its bad for business to kill your customers. In any case, by turning off such supplies they can achieve any reasonable objective to which they aspire without risking their own population through the inevitable retaliatory strikes that would occur.

Same applies from this side of course - one has to keep the Russians sweet as much as possible to preserve supplies of gas and oil and no one is going to destroy the supply they depend on by making a first strike against Russia - for which the retaliation would be just as destructive.

We're set to get ourselves into similar unfortunate and pointless entanglements over this as we have in the Middle East; and all we have to do is get ourselves off of fossil fuels to avoid both situations. But then such a move would not be profitable for those who finance elections from the profits of fossil fuels and warmongering.

E

See that is the problem with Russia... they are not putting all of thier bets on oil as we have. They are really runing with Nuclear power. They have been doing it very very quietly... but they have been advancing for a while now in nuclear energy and weapons.

No one can win a war on two fronts.. history has proven it time and again. ( also never go on a russian campaign in the fall or winter )

they are ramping up.

The whole reason why Russia was up in arms about the Serbs getting thier country back w/o tons of fuss is they have all of these nation states ( like Georgia) who wish to split off and who would be invigorated by things like that.

The US putting missles in those nation states and in Poland, ( which has always been *every bodys bitch* ) over there would be a direct chalange to the Russian Supremacy in Eastern Eroupe and the Balkan states. It is very touchy.

Not to mention we are cheesed about the Russians selling nuclear anything to chowder heads like the Iranians and thier like.

Now Russia is of course standing behind Iran and saying you mess with them, you mess with us.

A few months ago Russia broadcasted the "testing" ~ I will call a spade a spade lets just all it a commercial shall we?

for thier Father of all Bombs. We prev. had a Mother of all Bombs. ( MOAB) Thiers is bigger and badder. They broadcast it on thier natl' tv.. and also gave our media outlets the "heads up" on the neah neah nee boo boo ours is bigger we can kick your ass commercial. http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1155952320070912?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=22&sp=true

add to this the stress in Pakistan ( Russain's hate them) and they have the bomb too... and Iran hates them.. and US and Pakistan are allies. We need as many friendly locations over there for "future bases" and for help.

But thier own war on terror has gone to hell since Bhutto was assasinated.

Yeah it is all fucked up.

Gwyn

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 8:10:00 AM

RealityLicks

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Well, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on change spurred on by peak oil arguments. The pursuit of the black stuff isn't stopping anytime soon and they're crossing their fingers that the deposits found down in the Falklands turn out to be as large as the North Sea ones were, before Thatcher squandered the profits from them. If they are, don't expect a sequel to March of the Penguins.

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 8:37:07 AM

RealityLicks

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Ukraine joining Nato seems certain, eventually but I wouldn't say that that means checkmate for Moscow - or anyone else. That has been expected for ten years now and the eagerness of the emerging economies to join the EU is key to the Euro supplanting the dollar as the globe's foreign exchange denom. of choice.

The Russians fully expect it but are simply delaying it, which is quite wise. Look at Serbia recently - it helps no-one to de-stabilise too rapidly. More importantly, Ukraine turning west will affect all our security. With Latvia gone and several satellites out of commission, the Russians are partially blind already. When they lose their radars in the Ukraine, they will have no way of double-checking errors on first strikes and could conceivably retaliate full force to a false alarm. Duck and cover.

Some of their older defence systems are still serviced by Kiev, too and they have a fleet in rented bases in teh Crimea. Losing Ukraine will hurt them. But Ukraine is probably more dependent on Russia than vice versa, who else wants their ageing jet engines etc? All they sell to the west are raw materials and we can always shop elsewhere. Also, they are vulnerable to a Russian gas price rise each and every winter.

But since no-one, no, not even the US, can make all the weapons they "need", I doubt the Russians will be too phased. Cooperation is inevitable for everyone. They'll build the strength of the ODKB - expect Iran to join - and will probably develop a new fighter with the Indians. There are other places to site their new radar and having US launchers in Ukraine or Poland can only over-extend the US, it doesn't allow Nato to strike anywhere they can't already.

Clearly, though there are a lot of nervous people around and nervous people vote for war more readily.

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 9:50:30 AM

Moloch

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Polad Ukraine and Check people have been literally mass murdered by Russian communists. Putin can go suck on a bottle of vodka, Russia invaded its neighbors too many times they cant be trusted, isloate those idiots.

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 10:06:23 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

Polad Ukraine and Check people have been literally mass murdered by Russian communists. Putin can go suck on a bottle of vodka, Russia invaded its neighbors too many times they cant be trusted, isloate those idiots.

Actually if I remember rightly, Russia has never invaded Poland or the Czech Republic. It occupied them after chasing German invaders across Europe and refused to leave for its own defensive reasons. Before that if there has been any country for them to be fearful of its been the Germans, though France and Spain have had their moments in that part of Europe. I think you will find that it has been Russia's western neighbours that have historically done the invading and not Russia.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/11/2008 10:07:44 AM >

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 10:39:27 AM

RealityLicks

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I totally agree on the need to continue the European project and it was gratifying when the crude nationalism of Poland's Kasjynski (sp.?) brothers was fucked off at the election last year. Not too sure that their new PM is all that keen on the Americans; the previous incumbent was the one who okayed US bases and it was simply too late to renege, just seems he's taken the oportunity to upgrade in more practical areas of their defence.

Poland is weird. Its split down the middle with the east most into the nationalistic sabre-rattling and the west more liberal. Sort of echoes the bounds set by Hitler and Stalin in '39 but its maybe more to do with the character of the neighbours than anything else. And of course, the poorer, less well-educated live in the east.

Tusk looks good - well after the fascist neanderthal, who wouldn't - and Russia have lifted their ban on Polish food imports recently. I think Poland feel they have to create noise constantly because they really are on the front line but are often ignored - the key will be establishing good bonds between Poland and Germany, which just now aren't great, and reducing some of the damage done since they emerged from the Soviet sphere.

Russia will be looking east for alliances but is far too important to be ignored by the EU. Superpower politics, of any type, have no real place in Europe.

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RE: Well, not everyone wants America to leave - 3/11/2008 10:42:20 AM

Moloch

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quote:

be ignored by the EU. Superpower politics, of any type, have no real place in Europe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Poland is weird. Its split down the middle with the east most into the nationalistic sabre-rattling and the west more liberal. Sort of echoes the bounds set by Hitler and Stalin in '39 but its maybe more to do with the character of the neighbours than anything else. And of course, the poorer, less well-educated live in the east.

Thatsbecause east was a$$ fu$ked by Russians too many times.

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