Religion and Religiosity

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LadyEllen -> Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 10:44:09 AM)
I was reading a thread the other day - there was a contribution there along the lines of "how come ordinary Muslims dont do anything to denounce the extremists?" with the conclusion that their (apparent) silence and inactivity constitutes tacit support for the extremists' actions. And then I was thinking about Christian fundamentalists - the sort who disrupt funerals, who attack abortion clinics and use free speech to broadcast condemnation (some would say hate) for anyone not of their particular worldview. And I wondered where the rational voices within Christianity were - the ones denouncing the extremists, as we seem to expect rational Muslims to do - and whether their silence could be taken to be tacit support for the actions of the fundamentalist Christians? Or is it that we hold Islam to a different standard than Christianity? And does that not obviously imply that Islam is held to be second class in our multi-cultural, equality of all societies? E

DomKen -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 11:11:08 AM)
Careful there, the christians absolutely hate when someone points out their hypocrisy.

softness -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 11:15:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Careful there, the christians absolutely hate when someone points out their hypocrisy. we dont hate it ... it is just obvious they have been corrupted y the devil/turned from god/ turned gay/ had sex outsiode of marriage .. etc etc etc blah blah blah I think the OP is perfectly correct, and though I may not do it in public, in privtae a battle with the people I know who hold fundementalist Christian beliefs. Often to no useful conclusion ... but it still does happen

CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 11:33:44 AM)
The problem is that, if you actually think there's a God, you should devote every moment of your life to him, for he's the grand lord of all creation whose whims are meant to be served by every living creature. His will should overcome anything else. Christian fundamentalists (like other fundamentalists) are the crazy ones. They actually believe in God! They're able to think, but they find in favor of the madness. I think most "Christians" are half-witted individuals who sort of just go along with various things that they're told. They can be coerced into believing that there's a God, but that they should still act as humans (in society) tell them that they should- in other words, taking human tenants over the God's. Then again, I'm sure some (if not most?) fundamentalists can't think, either, and they've just taken to religious concerns more than social ones. I'm just speculating that some actually think in favor of God.

domiguy -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 11:37:14 AM)
We have all sorts of double standards...Muslims should criticize the extremists...Obama is forced to marginalize Farrakhan....Same shit different day.

DomKen -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 11:41:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Careful there, the christians absolutely hate when someone points out their hypocrisy. we dont hate it ... it is just obvious they have been corrupted y the devil/turned from god/ turned gay/ had sex outsiode of marriage .. etc etc etc blah blah blah I think the OP is perfectly correct, and though I may not do it in public, in privtae a battle with the people I know who hold fundementalist Christian beliefs. Often to no useful conclusion ... but it still does happen I'm sometimes far too hard on all christians. I know some who are truly outraged by fundamentalisms many excesses. However I run into a lot more who seem to have never given any thought to their own faith or how the fundamentalists are affecting the world in the name of their faith. The problem comes, as Ellen points out, when I hear christians attacking muslims for not acting when those self same christians are not taking a stand against their own faith's extremists. IME pointing this out inevitably results in screams of outrage and the comparison of some comparitively unknow progressive christian to the leaders of the RR. I'm honestly curious to see if the responses here are any different from my expectations.

softness -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 11:52:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Christian fundamentalists (like other fundamentalists) are the crazy ones. They actually believe in God! They're able to think, but they find in favor of the madness. I think most "Christians" are half-witted individuals who sort of just go along with various things that they're told. They can be coerced into believing that there's a God, but that they should still act as humans (in society) tell them that they should- in other words, taking human tenants over the God's. see .. it is people like you ... who use such inelegant arguments like these that stop the tolerant, intelligent, reasonable people who have faith, like myself, from speaking out in public. Because we are insulted, mocked and ridiculed by people such as yourself, we choose not to speak about our beliefs. Thus you are left with the people beyond the reach of reason and reasonable discussion, they are most often fundementalists. I live everyday with my faith, and make difficult decisions every day based upon it. To do that with a clear conscience and a glad heart .. takes strength .. not stupidity.

LadyEllen -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 11:58:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness see .. it is people like you ... who use such inelegant arguments like these that stop the tolerant, intelligent, reasonable people who have faith, like myself, from speaking out in public. Because we are insulted, mocked and ridiculed by people such as yourself, we choose not to speak about our beliefs. Thus you are left with the people beyond the reach of reason and reasonable discussion, they are most often fundementalists. THAT is a great point! E

CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 12:11:33 PM)
If our mental hospitals are proof of one thing, it's that insanity will always be present. People have mental disorders galore. Therefore, there will always be the fundamentalists among us. Should religion die off, I'm sure they'll come up with something else crazy to be about. The voices talk to them, after all. But it serves my purpose if people do not talk about religion in public. That is, afterall, a large means for it to spread. The more seemingly intelligent people talk about religion, the more legitimate it looks to our youth. I mean, think about it. If someone says voices talk to them and tell them to burn things, you think they're crazy, right? What if someone said that God talks to them and told them to build a church? Slightly less crazy, eh? Which doesn't make sense. They're both psychotics, but it's easier for the latter example to keep up his psychosis because of the social climate that's more accepting of people who want to build churches than people who want to burn things. Still, I should point out that while I have little more than contempt for religion and the idiocy known as "faith", I do not hate you nor those who have it. It's not the people, but the beliefs- the insanity- that is what I speak against. I was religious, too, so it's not like I'm saying I'm above having been fooled, either. I had to grow up and look at the world around me before realizing the silliness of blindly believing in what people told me.

colouredin -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 12:18:41 PM)
England was a Christian country, we view other faiths as 'invaders' or whatever, I know that here it is far easier to demonise the 'other' becuase thats just what we do, its institutionalised bigotry, read the way that newspapers talk about muslims etc. Actually there was a thread put up i think yesterday, it showed a clip of some people in new york they had shouted out happy hanukkah and some people had beaten them up, a man stood up and defended the people being attacked, he was rightly called a hero. But it wasnt that he was a hero, the bulk of the story was "wow a muslim guy did this...Muslim hero" even that is deliberatly creating an idea of differance. If it had been a white christian would they have made a big deal of it? probably not.

softness -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 12:23:27 PM)
Imagine for a second the power, devotion, vehemance, drive and passion with which you say there is no God. Every fibre of your being knows that I am mad for "blindly" believing, for having faith. that is everything that I have for you. One of us however is not ranting on and on about how stupid and wrong the other is. One of us is being calm and responsive, the other is talking on and on without listening. Have you ever spoken with someone insane Curious Lord? .. I mean someone actually .. legally .. judged to be living in a false world inside there head? .. The last time I did .. they wouldn't listen to us either .. just kept ranting on and on without reason. One man's sanity is another man's madness ... as they say

CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 12:29:07 PM)
When you say "ranting", this typically implies that I don't hear you.. that I'm just going on on my own tangent. I have a lot to say, but I'm responded to you. It would be ranting on your part to ignore this- even if you say relatively few words. You have an interesting view of insanity. Have you been to a ward? Do you believe all- or even most- crazy people to be loud, talkative individuals?

charlotte12 -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 12:32:52 PM)
Oops, wrong account.

Stephann -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 12:34:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord The problem is that, if you actually think there's a God, you should devote every moment of your life to him, for he's the grand lord of all creation whose whims are meant to be served by every living creature. His will should overcome anything else. Christian fundamentalists (like other fundamentalists) are the crazy ones. They actually believe in God! They're able to think, but they find in favor of the madness. I think most "Christians" are half-witted individuals who sort of just go along with various things that they're told. They can be coerced into believing that there's a God, but that they should still act as humans (in society) tell them that they should- in other words, taking human tenants over the God's. Then again, I'm sure some (if not most?) fundamentalists can't think, either, and they've just taken to religious concerns more than social ones. I'm just speculating that some actually think in favor of God. Hrm. I actually believe there is a God. I also believe that God doesn't really want me devoting all my time and effort to him. He didn't put life into motion, only to have it become his cheerleading squad. Religion, as a means of providing spiritual and emotional comfort, can do great things. Religion, as a tool to control the masses, is extremely effective. Nuclear energy can power entire cities, or turn them to rubble. It has nothing to do with the tool, everything to do with how man manipulates it. Religious intolerance feeds on the same emotional drive, be it from Christians, Muslims, or Athiests. "I think you're crazy for believing in God" is on par with "I think you're crazy for not believing in God." As this discussion has never been logically settled to any sort of generally accepted level (God cannot be proven, nor disproven) it truly does become a matter of faith. Which, again, is a tool man uses to his own ends. "And the wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round...round and round...." Stephan

kittinSol -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 12:34:22 PM)
There's no central administration for Islam, unlike the Catholic church, for example. Perhaps this explains, in part anyway, why all Muslims don't take out newspapers advertisements in the Herald Tribune or whatever in order to condemn what some insane terrorists do in the name of Islam. PS: Stephann, you did a double-post.

softness -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 12:38:51 PM)
the ones I work with are loud and violent and outspoken ... the quiet ones are usually in need of help I cannot give them .. they have need a strength I cannot offer them I have visited a "ward" in a hospital.. I have visted prisons and worked in the secure "mental" wings there, I help children with EMBD (emotional, mental, behavioural disorders) on a daily basis .. my view of insanity is one developed over years ... of contact .. not theory or judgement ... but contact

Politesub53 -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 12:38:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord The problem is that, if you actually think there's a God, you should devote every moment of your life to him, for he's the grand lord of all creation whose whims are meant to be served by every living creature. His will should overcome anything else. Christian fundamentalists (like other fundamentalists) are the crazy ones. They actually believe in God! They're able to think, but they find in favor of the madness. I think most "Christians" are half-witted individuals who sort of just go along with various things that they're told. They can be coerced into believing that there's a God, but that they should still act as humans (in society) tell them that they should- in other words, taking human tenants over the God's. Then again, I'm sure some (if not most?) fundamentalists can't think, either, and they've just taken to religious concerns more than social ones. I'm just speculating that some actually think in favor of God. I cant work out if you are just immature or stupid. I`m not religious but i have respect for others views of it. To class them all as "Half witted" Or "Having mental problems" just because someones view dont match your own is stupidity personified.

RCdc -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 12:39:46 PM)
On the question itself, I think it's a bit of a bizarre statement more than anything. I have seen many 'ordinary muslims' speak out against extremists. I see it more of pot stirring than anything else. Muslims are the new easy target, that's all. As for christians standing up against fundemental christians, I have seen that also. I believe it is just more interesting for the media to report on the fundementals and the extremists than it is to report those saying they do not agree. Last night I watched catholic priests questioning the 'new sin list' - so it happens, but it's reported 'quietly'. Why - I have no idea - sensationalism probably. the.dark.

CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 12:40:25 PM)
I've always felt that the mixture of religions was a wonderful argument for atheism. And I've always felt it's insane to believe in something that there's not evidence for- such as believing that there's going to be a cow in the next room an individual steps into when there's no reason to believe it. I mean, sure, there could be, but it's insane to think that there is, you know? I'd argue the same with God. I mean, there could be some sort of being which loosely meets the qualifications of "God". But as long as there's no evidence for it- even if it happens to be correct- it's insane to think that there is. I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ” —Stephen F. Roberts

Aneirin -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 12:41:13 PM)
England was a Christian country, and a catholic country and a protestant country and before that a pagan country .Intolerance has always been practised here, why, I feel that was wholly to do with them being different and thus seen as a threat to be watched and destroyed. Moslems have been here too in Britain's past, as have Jews and whatever other religion they kept a low profile, but they were here. The jews even financed aristocratic adventures, they were needed for their savvy with currency, but they were hated still and destroyed when the need was there, as any other religion other than the one ruling at the time was seen as evil, just because they had a different view of things. One has to wonder were those different beliefs not tolerated because it threatened the power of those in power, i.e. the church. So, not much has changed, we still have our bogeymen, perhaps even when everything is put into the cold light of day, they are no threat to us, it is just we make them a threat to soothe our minds when the reality is, we are a threat to ourselves but rather blame someone else. Maybe just me, but the enemy in our midst is the media, they are the new all powerful rabble rousers, the new church perhaps.

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