RE: Religion and Religiosity (Full Version)

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CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 2:19:18 PM)

But then wouldn't that something older have to have been sprung into existence by something?  And you could say that it keeps going back- to something yet older- but then there's something that had to be there to start with.  Some beginning.

Why should this beginning have had been sentient, or living?  Isn't it so much more likely that it was a random disorder?  Couldn't that random disorder have been something like the big bang?

It's a problem because we can't answer it.  But if I give you a math problem..

3234x^6345 + 34234234y*x*dy/dx + du/dx*y*ln(x)= sin (x*y*u) for u = e^(x+y+du/dx), could you solve it?  I sure as hell can't.  But if you gave me numbers, I could plug them in and tell you if they're accurate.

Same deal with creation.  I can tell you that I don't know what the answer is, but I can tell you that making the assumption of a God is no closer to the answer- and may very well limit you from knowing what the actual answer is, in the same way that assumng x is 2*y might in the equation above.

That equation's a very weird differential equation.  I'd have to look up what's currently known about them, but I'm not even sure if it's currently known how to solve such an animal.  :P



Stephann -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 2:24:13 PM)

Again, I follow you, but when we're talking about analyzing our souls, there's not much in the way of equations to be made.  Faith isn't about knowing the answer, but rather believing something that is comforting.  There's enormous value to be had by those who can find comfort the concept of a power greater than themselves. 

To suggest that "God isn't the answer, because it could be a million other answers" still doesn't discount the possibility that God is the answer.  Stating that because that answer doesn't make sense for you, doesn't address the impact it has for those who feel the answer does make sense for them.  If you don't have the answer for yourself, why are you in such a rush to rob others of their answer, that they came to as honestly as they knew how to?  As nobody can definitively, positively, irrefutably answer the riddle of God, why must those who feel they have found it for themselves be ridiculed?

Stephan



CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 2:31:34 PM)

If a man is dying of dehydration the desert, and he thinks he's found an oasis- which is just a mirage- I suppose it's true that he could die happier in his delerium, thinking that he's drinking and never knowing the truth before passing.

I have two reasons I'd tell him it's not there, though:
1.  I think it's distasteful to believe in a falsehood.
2.  If he doesn't believe in the illusionary oasis, he might go further and find a real one.

In the same respect.. if we all honestly believed in God, to the utter fulfillment of our beings, I'd have two problems with it (assuming I wasn't also under the delussion):
1.  I think it's distasteful to believe in a falsehood.
2.  If we don't believe in some divine being giving us eternal life, we might go on and seek it, and we might find longer, happier lives.

If you honestly thought that when you died, you'd go to a place of eternal bliss.. would you stave off morality as you do now?  If you knew that you wouldn't, would you take better care of yourself to enjoy life as much as possible while you live it?



caitlyn -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 2:51:25 PM)

General ...
 
The world is full of people, and people do evil. People that do evil, often have the need to justify that which they do. Religion is convenient, as is national fervor. The Romans enslaved half the known world in order to bring "civilization."
 
There is no need for any members of any religion, to formally denounce the evils of religion ... just because evil people happen to use religion as justification for their evil acts. Likewise, there is really no reason or purpose to engage in long debate with people unable to see this for what it is.



CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 2:58:08 PM)

Because it's wiser to make the assumption that you're just right and leave it at that, eh?



kittinSol -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 2:58:31 PM)

One could argue that only religious people believe in evil.



caitlyn -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 3:01:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
One could argue that only religious people believe in evil.


I wouldn't. 



caitlyn -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 3:10:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
Because it's wiser to make the assumption that you're just right and leave it at that, eh?


Whatever gets you through the day ... but since you only believe in that which can be proven, perhaps you can prove how stating that there is no point engaging in long discussions with people unable to grasp as simple a notion as people doing evil and using religion as justification, is an indication that they think they are just right.
 
Myself, I see no such linkage.



CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 3:36:40 PM)

Ah.  You must've misread a good bit to think that my position is that religion's incorrect because people've used it for evil.

Actually, hell, where'd you even get that from?



SugarMyChurro -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 3:53:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: softness
...they have been corrupted y the devil/turned from god/ turned gay/ had sex outsiode of marriage...


Gee, I think I mentioned this kind of viewpoint in another thread.

[8|]

Stay sick.



caitlyn -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 3:56:17 PM)

My response was general, as stated in the first word on my post.
 
I made no commentary on your opinion one way or the other. If you made the choice to attach your position to my general comment ... that is something I have no power over.



CuriousLord -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/11/2008 5:08:52 PM)

It's like there's a kid pointing his middle finger up in the air at someone, then saying he's just doing it, not directly at anyone, just happens to be doing it.

How does one deal with such an individual?

Well, peace.



QuietlySeeking -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/12/2008 6:52:25 AM)

Back to the originial telecast....

My church has started recently examining many of the negative stereotypes attached to Christians....(some of which are intolerance, anti-homosexual,  hypocritical, and more than I care to mention). 

Individual members of our congregation have the opportunity to change those negative things....or not.  I have chosen to work on those things because I identified with some of them.  When I am comfortable with the changes I've made, I will speak up.

Everyone here has talked about religion as if it is some great group.  While many people huddle under the banner of Christianity, the religion is a PERSONAL relationship with God.  Many other religions are based on the same individual relationship with God/G-d/Goddess/Great Spirit.

To say that we are all the same in any way is to draw an erroneous conclusion (and logical fallacy) on the same magnitude as anyone saying that "all lesbians are the same" or "all white men are the same" or "all <insert your problem group here> are the same".

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I was reading a thread the other day - there was a contribution there along the lines of "how come ordinary Muslims dont do anything to denounce the extremists?" with the conclusion that their (apparent) silence and inactivity constitutes tacit support for the extremists' actions.

And then I was thinking about Christian fundamentalists - the sort who disrupt funerals, who attack abortion clinics and use free speech to broadcast condemnation (some would say hate) for anyone not of their particular worldview. And I wondered where the rational voices within Christianity were - the ones denouncing the extremists, as we seem to expect rational Muslims to do - and whether their silence could be taken to be tacit support for the actions of the fundamentalist Christians?

Or is it that we hold Islam to a different standard than Christianity? And does that not obviously imply that Islam is held to be second class in our multi-cultural, equality of all societies?

E



LadyEllen -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/12/2008 7:39:29 AM)

Careful QS - repeating the OP might count as a hijack after three pages of "God doesnt exist"/"Yes he does"

I hope you didnt think from my OP that I was saying all Christians or even all people of faith are the same? I tried to make the point that they arent and asked why the fundamentalists/ordinary people of one religion seem to be held to a different standard to the fundamentalists/ ordinary people of another.

All part of the "Islam isnt the enemy" programme currently being broadcast from my keyboard.

E



Stephann -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/12/2008 9:43:31 AM)

LadyE,

Conventional Wisdom tells us that Christian Fundamentalists aren't trying to blow us up.  The reality, obviously, tells us that it was Christian Fundamentalists responsible for destroying Iraq and Afghanistahn as we know it.  If I were a Muslim, I'd be just as pissed off.

Stephan



caitlyn -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/12/2008 10:43:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
Conventional Wisdom tells us that Christian Fundamentalists aren't trying to blow us up.  The reality, obviously, tells us that it was Christian Fundamentalists responsible for destroying Iraq and Afghanistahn as we know it.  If I were a Muslim, I'd be just as pissed off.


I strongly disagree.
 
The people seeking to destroy Iraq and Afghanistan as we know it, are evil people with an evil agenda, that happen to use Christianity to justify their actions.
 
They are frauds.
 
If they were Christians, they wouldn't be trying to destroy Iraq and Afghanistan as we know it, and killing tens of thousands while doing it. 



Jeffff -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/12/2008 11:16:25 AM)

Ok, but if you read the Koran, you can see that the Muslim fundamentalists are also frauds.
Since there is no clearing house for the dissemination of information about wack job " Christians", it seems unfair to expect the same of Islam

Jeff



JackNikopol -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/12/2008 11:39:48 AM)

religion like wine and anything else is only good in moderation

too much of anything will kill you

Religion no matter what the religion is often misused by a minority who believe they know best

this can have a domino effect if people at a young age from birth till early 20's can become quite badly damaged, and have a wide range of contradictory views, these are often extremists

you can think of it as a Reenginering of Human Nature along with Human Instinct.

Human Instinct is fundamental to everyone, and is partially controlled by Genetics and Hormones, and is fairly predicatable, but the enviorment and religious teaching can cause a decremental effect on the person

I once knew a Guy in primary school his Name was John, he came from a High strunge cathloic familly his mother never slept with his father in the same bed "except for his conception", never wore makeup "called the devils paint" and the father took seperate vacations, and neither drank the end result was an emotionally stunted adult, now at the age of 27 he has had no real relationship, and goes around preaching the glory of god, yet the most enjoyment he has in life is currently

going to church, writing leaflets, watching football 

he does not question anything, has about as much passion as a Mr Potatoe head, and he still refers to anyone who has sex outside of marrige as Heathens, and i dont want to mention his opinion about people into bdsm etc

Now with the way he turned out, can you imagine how his children will end up being

its like the right wing will breed even more right winged people



luckydog1 -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/12/2008 11:44:47 AM)

Just about all of the destruction in Iraq and Afghanistan is Muslim on Muslim (plus some on Kurd) violence.  We are not trying to destroy and turn thier cities to rubble.  We could do that in an hour.  They are destroying the place one bomb at a time. 

CL is emotionally invested in and has a deep psychological need to believe and convince others of his faith.  He is deeply drawn to testify.  His argument is flawed,

"Why should this beginning have had been sentient, or living?  Isn't it so much more likely that it was a random disorder?  Couldn't that random disorder have been something like the big bang? "

There is nothing and can be nothing random in a Materialist/Athiestic existance.   Absolutly everything is deterministic.  Therefore a scientific argument based on randomness is not valid.  This in no way proves the existance of God....it debunks an attempt to disprove the existance of God.  Of course the Faithfull will refuse to see this. 

Science which he claims to follow does NOT support his position.  We have talked this before, and he insists on defining God in a very limited way, and arguing agianst it.   It's likely his thinking on this will evolve over his life as it does for all, except the un-thinking fundementalist.





Stephann -> RE: Religion and Religiosity (3/12/2008 11:58:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
Conventional Wisdom tells us that Christian Fundamentalists aren't trying to blow us up.  The reality, obviously, tells us that it was Christian Fundamentalists responsible for destroying Iraq and Afghanistahn as we know it.  If I were a Muslim, I'd be just as pissed off.


I strongly disagree.
 
The people seeking to destroy Iraq and Afghanistan as we know it, are evil people with an evil agenda, that happen to use Christianity to justify their actions.
 
They are frauds.
 
If they were Christians, they wouldn't be trying to destroy Iraq and Afghanistan as we know it, and killing tens of thousands while doing it. 


I apologize for confusing those responsible with Christians.  I used "Christian Fundamentalists" the way the term "Islamic Fundamentalists" is commonly used; i.e. that those responsible are no more associated with the fundamentals of Christianity, than they are with Islam, Hinduism, or Discordianism. 

The truth is, admittedly, more complex; Iraq and Afghanistan suffered a fair bit under their religious (and non-religious) leaders.  It's the utter lack of moral authority of those claiming to be Christians who are responsible for the atrocities that I am addressing.  We see Bin Laden as a religious extremist.  Had I grown up in Baghdad, I imagine I would likely see Bush in the same manner.

Stephan



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