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RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 12:06:55 PM   
petwolf22


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		i think at the very least it would still be incorrect to judge that most do not take the M/s and other aspects of the lifestyle seriously. Everyone is different, and just because they do not define their lives as you do with your Master, does not make them wrong, or not serious. They simply do things differently. as the way you choose to live your life should be accepted, so should the rest of ours.

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 12:23:18 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		petwolf, as i said before, no two M/s unions are the same. my Master has his way...others have theirs. i am not saying that those who differ from us are wrong or any less true or real. i'm saying that the terms and the lifestyle cannot be defined absolutely any way under the sun, that at the base level we all must share a common thread. i do not understand the need that some have for attaching labels and titles to themselves that are not true and that in their hearts they do not even desire. i could say that i am president of the united states til i am blue in the face, but no matter how much i say it, it just isn't so. likewise with many i've observed in this lifestyle when it comes to slavery. no, their relationship must not be like ours, their ways must not be like ours or anything resembling...but, they must be slaves. they must actually be property with all that entails. that is all i'm saying.

(in reply to petwolf22)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 12:32:30 PM   
petwolf22


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		if you happened to believe that you were president of the united states, you would want to be taken seriously.

im just simply responding to your comments that there are so many others that don't take M/s seriously. you've said it yourself
"they simply pervert the meanings and intentions of M/s to suit their own purposes"
which to me seems like you believe there is only one true definition of the Master and slave/sub dynamic.

Even property is treated differently by different people. i may not keep my car very clean, but i always take the trash out of the kitchen.

< Message edited by petwolf22 -- 10/2/2005 12:45:40 PM >

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 12:48:37 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: petwolf22

if you happened to believe that you were president of the united states, you would want to be taken seriously.

im just simply responding to your comments that there are so many others that don't take M/s seriously. you've said it yourself
"they simply pervert the meanings and intentions of M/s to suit their own purposes"
which to me seems like you believe there is only one true definition of the Master and slave/sub dynamic.


at its most basic level, yes there is only one true definition of M/s...ownership. the life of the owned is completely under the control of the Owner. as far as what else the dynamic may entail....the sky's the limit, the individuals define that for themselves. i don't know if it's political correctness or what, but i notice many have issue with there being any clear definition for anything in this lifestyle. but by basically saying that anyone's a slave, anyone's a Master, any and everything qualifies as a M/s union, it sullies the whole lifestyle and makes it look as if we do not even take ourselves seriously. if i'm standing in a crowd proclaiming i'm the president, i don't see what's wrong with someone shouting back, "sorry chick, you're not." maybe it'd be just the wake up call i'd need.

(in reply to petwolf22)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 12:55:11 PM   
petwolf22


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		well, so the most basic definition of M/s is ownership? Then define that. At some point its going to be how an individual person or couple defines those terms for themselves. Maybe it's all up to degrees.

ownership may mean the ability to abuse (as in treat violently--please seperate from the abuse discussion on the other thread) their property for whatever reasons they want. i could kick my cat around, and starve him, if i so chose. but i dont, because i think he deserves more respect as a living creature than that. he'll get a smack on the rump for pooing on the floor, or get shut in the bathroom, but that's never just because im bigger than him, own him and am therefore entitled to do so.

i know some people who would invariably treat their pets/general property much worse. so whose definition of ownership is the correct one?


< Message edited by petwolf22 -- 10/2/2005 1:12:59 PM >

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 1:14:28 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247


quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut


And someday, your master will become infirm and unable to care for you, then what? It is HIS duty to teach you to function in the world because no one lives forever.

To say that others don't take the term "slave" seriously because they don't see it as you do is making a statement out of ignorance rather than knowledge. Giving someone the right to abuse you physically and emotionally "until there is nothing left" is not the most intelligent decision a person can make, but it certainly was your choice to make. It is not your choice to tell others that their choices are wrong because they don't agree with yours.



FL...when or where did i imply that the individual choices of others are wrong because they differ from my own? it is not a matter of me thinking "my way" is "the" way...i doubt there are 2 Master/slave unions on this earth that are exact mirrors of each other. however it disheartens me when some define the terms so loosely that they can mean absolutely anything under the sun. the plain fact is, many do NOT take the terms Master and slave seriously. and many will plainly admit to such...saying that this lifestyle is a fantasy or some sort of roleplay game. others will claim to take it seriously, and in the next breath talk about how the door is always open and how they have the power to do whatever they want to...yet they are "slaves". i am not looking down on such people. i do not feel any "better" than they are. what disturbs me is why those with such feelings would wish to have any association with a Master/slave lifestyle to begin with...there is nothing wrong with wanting a way out, with wishing to retain the right to say no, the right to be independent, etc. if that is what one needs, that is what one needs. but if those are your needs, why call it something it's not?

as for your personal feeling that it's my Master's duty to teach me independent functioning in the world...that is not his desire. His "duties" to me are whatever he feels they are, and that is not among them.



Obviously, that is exactly what you are doing. Of course the fact that having voluntarily committed your life at the much wizened old age of 19, and clearly stating that your activities are so closely monitored, I wonder....how did you manage to get the right for free thought?

There are many different levels of "slavery", and like it not kiddo, the door IS always open. You may choose not to use it, you may even believe you do not have the right to use it, but REALITY is that that option exists for anyone. Making a conscious choice to not be capable of functioning in society is not something anyone should be proud of. Your "master" may choose to prevent you from learning life skills, but if he doesn't have a plan for what happens to you after he is gone, you both will be in for a rude awakening. Or is the plan that you die with him?

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 1:26:33 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

petwolf, as i said before, no two M/s unions are the same. my Master has his way...others have theirs. i am not saying that those who differ from us are wrong or any less true or real. i'm saying that the terms and the lifestyle cannot be defined absolutely any way under the sun, that at the base level we all must share a common thread. i do not understand the need that some have for attaching labels and titles to themselves that are not true and that in their hearts they do not even desire. i could say that i am president of the united states til i am blue in the face, but no matter how much i say it, it just isn't so. likewise with many i've observed in this lifestyle when it comes to slavery. no, their relationship must not be like ours, their ways must not be like ours or anything resembling...but, they must be slaves. they must actually be property with all that entails. that is all i'm saying.



Is it purely your youth that makes you unable to see the contradictions of your own statements? President of the United States is a very definable term because there is only one and therefore anyone who is not that one but makes that claim is delusional.

You are exactly saying that those who do not live as you do are falsely labeling themselves and therefore not as "true" or "real" as you. As petwolf says, just because he chooses not to kick his cat, doesn't make him less of a cat owner than the one who does. However, feeling that one can define how something works when it is the only thing they have ever experienced as an adult with no comparative experience IS arrogant. It hasn't been said for the purpose of offending, yet you take offense. Perhaps we should begin to define for you the term "constructive criticism"?

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 2:05:21 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		FL...your inability to understand the few points i've tried to make confuses me. yes, being president of the united states IS an exact, very clearly defined thing. as is slavery. however, that clear, exact definition of slavery isn't "exactly as Daddy's prop lives it". that clear, exact definition is ownership. and by that i mean, being bound in servitude to another (got that straight from the dictionary). pretty simple really. one person may treat their property well and with respect...another may treat their property cruelly and inhumanely. neither is any more or less a true or real Owner, and neither property is any more or less property. how they are treated, all of the many intricacies of the dynamic, that is all up to the individuals involved. what makes it real is simply ownership and being owned. controlling a life of another, and being bound in servitude to another. is something about that definition of M/s offensive to you?

and FL, why do you even bother reading my comments, when you have made it very clear that because of my age or my chosen lifestyle or both, you think very little of my ideas, opinions, beliefs, and intellect? you assume a great many things about me based on my age, and you know what happens when one assumes.

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 3:49:55 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

FL...your inability to understand the few points i've tried to make confuses me. yes, being president of the united states IS an exact, very clearly defined thing. as is slavery. however, that clear, exact definition of slavery isn't "exactly as Daddy's prop lives it". that clear, exact definition is ownership. and by that i mean, being bound in servitude to another (got that straight from the dictionary). pretty simple really. one person may treat their property well and with respect...another may treat their property cruelly and inhumanely. neither is any more or less a true or real Owner, and neither property is any more or less property. how they are treated, all of the many intricacies of the dynamic, that is all up to the individuals involved. what makes it real is simply ownership and being owned. controlling a life of another, and being bound in servitude to another. is something about that definition of M/s offensive to you?

and FL, why do you even bother reading my comments, when you have made it very clear that because of my age or my chosen lifestyle or both, you think very little of my ideas, opinions, beliefs, and intellect? you assume a great many things about me based on my age, and you know what happens when one assumes.


What is offensive is the concept that because others recognize the REALITY that they can leave if their situation become untenable is something that you find makes them less of a slave.

You have chosen your lifestyle, and your opinions, beliefs and intellect are evident of your age and lack of actual life experience. I don't make the assumptions based on your age, but rather based on the position presented that because you read in the dictionary the definition of something that having any freedom goes against that definition.

Reality is what it is. "Consensual Slavery" is all that can LEGALLY exist. If you give consent, you are also able to withdraw that same consent. Choosing to ignore that legal right doesn't make the slavery more "real", it simply means that you choose to never exercise your right. Saying that you will stay even if your beloved "daddy" should choose to physically and emotionally abuse you beyond recognition is not the definition of "slavery" within the confines of the "lifestyle". Rather it is in the confines of not having the common sense to know the difference between the two. It is very easy to then make the argument that "he would never do that", but you can't quantify giving someone the control to do something simply because you don't believe it will happen. Do I make these assumptions because I think you are too young to understand? Certainly not. I make these assumptions because you have clearly stated that you place no value on your life at all beyond what "daddy" chooses to do with it.

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 4:31:25 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline 		Incidentally, I own my dogs, but I am not legally permitted to abuse them.

Furthermore, prior to the Emancipation Proclamation, there were laws on the books regarding how owners could treat their slaves. They couldn't treat their slave any way they saw fit, even though these laws were only loosely applied.

The POINT? That being a slave does not grant the right to do anything master wants just because he owns a slave.

But then again, perhaps you will try to claim that Sally Hemmings was not as much of a slave as you either.

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 4:53:41 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		FL, we seem to disagree on what exactly is "reality". i am pretty positive you do not know me in real life, or my Master, so how is it you can make the assumption that i can walk away from my Master? my reality is this: i cannot leave him. can i try? oh, certainly. but can i succeed? no. it is not a matter of simply loving him and wishing to stay. it is also a matter of understanding the fact that leaving (except by suicide) simply is not an option. the door is not open for me, and for various reasons (1 being that i have no unsupervised contact in real life with anyone on the outside, another being that the fact that he has certain legal powers over me), the odds for survival would not exactly be on my side. it's both frightening and comforting, knowing i am trapped. this is my reality, but this is not the reality of every slave. for some the door is open, and they "can" walk out that door if they so choose. however, should they? imo, no. do they have that right, to put themselves first and simply leave? imo, no. but what one can do and what one has the right to do often differs.

obviously, you have a very different view of this lifestyle (meaning M/s, not necessarily BDSM) than i do FL. it is clear you believe strongly in a few things....there is always the right to leave (altho you seem not to understand that for some leaving is a physical and/or legal impossibility), abuse is not acceptable and perhaps not even a "true" part of the lifestyle...and such beliefs are fine. but they are not what i would define as slavery or anything close to it, and i don't see the problem with admitting that. likewise, if you or anyone else for whatever reason didn't feel that i was a slave or anything close to it, it's your perogative to tell me that and whether or not i'd be offended is irrelevant.

you assume i lack life experience and common sense...simply because my beliefs differ from yours. aren't you doing the same thing to me that you feel i'm doing to others?

i do not believe in redefining words to make them mean what i'd like them to mean. if dictionary definitions don't suit you, fine, but i like to keep things simple so that is what i go by. a slave is X. a Master is X. clear definitions. no gray areas. yes, my Master has the right to do with me as he wills, because i belong to him. nothing complicated about that. no, i do not feel he'd ever harm me beyond recognition, but i am no fool and understand that in life anything can happen, so i accept the possibility. that is part and parcel of accepting a life of slavery. and no, i do not have the right to leave him. is a slave who will not leave any more a slave than one who will? no, that is not what i believe. a true slave can do something which they know full well they have no right to do, so yes a true slave can leave. but one who feels that they (and all others) have the god/legal/nature given right to leave? that is not a slave in my opinion. but i'm sure those who feel differently could care less about my opinion.

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 5:09:49 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline 		Where you ARE mistaken is in your ignorance of the legal aspect. The LAW grants you or anyone else the right to leave. The fact that you choose not to do so does not negate that right.

Going by dictionary definitions is a great way to understand some things in life, but even then there are "gray" areas.

Again, my "assumption" that you lack life experience or common sense is not based on your choice to become a slave. It is based on the fact that your "concept" of reality is only the reality which you are living. I have never said that you don't have the right to make the choice you made. I have said you don't have the right to claim that others are only "claiming" to be slaves when they are not because they don't fit in your definition.

It is not simply MY belief that abuse is not widely accepted in the lifestyle. If you are permitted, look around and read and educate yourself regarding what is and is not "accepted". Your statement would be similar to saying it is only MY opinion that those who are underage should not be involved in the lifestyle. Then again, perhaps in your little corner of the world, if you and "daddy" had a child, that child should be brought up with the same beliefs, and you would argue it was his right to do so.

Believing that he would never harm you beyond recognition is one thing. Thinking that if he did, you have no option but to sit and take it doesn't necessarily mean you are a fool, moreso that you are deluded from reality. Not knowing the difference between your choice and the legal rights that are afforded to every human being in the country is not foolish either. It is simply ignorant.

Perhaps you should look at my other post regarding ownership and slavery. But then again I guess your supreme intellect and life experience would say that throughout American History, the slaves were not really slaves at all if there were national laws that protected them because according to the dictionary, it doesn't "fit".

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 5:33:43 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		when did i say that "only" you had such beliefs? i am certain that there are far more within the D/s and BDSM lifestyles with beliefs similar to yours (regarding abuse and rights and such) than there are with beleifs similar to mine. i know my views are not popular ones...that's fine with me.

and when i refer to the rights of a slave, obviously, i am not refering to legal rights. the law is not what defines a person's reality. the law says i can leave Daddy whenever i please. but the reality is i cannot set foot outside the front door, or sometimes even a particular room (and sometimes a closet). that is reality. not what i wish it to be, or imagine it to be, just what is. many years ago, during pre-civil war slavery in the US, there were laws to protect the welfare of slaves in certain circumstances. but what significance did those laws have for those who were crippled or killed without cause, against these almighty "laws"?? none. but i do not compare such slavery to slavery in the D/s lifestyle, and it's an insult to my ancestors for me to make such comparisons.. because there is a crucial difference....consent. if one did not consent to slavery, obviously they have a right to escape that slavery. forget legal right, a human right. but within this lifestyle, there is consent. and when one makes that final choice to be slave, all rights (human rights included)go out the door imo. now, a Master may grant a slave whatever privilege he desires. and that could include leaving if the situation were unbearable for the slave. however feeling one has a "right" to leave...feeling one is entitled to certain treatment? that is not slavery imo. but why should you care what i feel is or is not slavery?

< Message edited by daddysprop247 -- 10/2/2005 5:36:15 PM >

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 6:37:32 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut
Obviously, that is exactly what you are doing. Of course the fact that having voluntarily committed your life at the much wizened old age of 19, and clearly stating that your activities are so closely monitored, I wonder....how did you manage to get the right for free thought?

Can we leave out the irrelevant age card? I've heard and read people over the age of 40 say exactly the same thing. Lack of respect due to age is no better than lack of respect due to gender or weight or any other irrelevent point.


(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 7:03:05 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I agree, and FLButtSlut and daddysprop are never going to agree because they're both right. All daddysprop is saying is that anyone who feels free to leave a relationship is not a slave ACCORDING TO HER conception of what it means to be a slave. FLButtSlut thinks that means daddysprop is saying anyone who feels free to leave a relationship is a fake, only "claiming" to be a slave. FLButtSlut is never going to convince daddysprop that her conception of slavery is invalid. And the snide remarks about daddysprop's age certainly don't do very much to persuade her.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 7:43:48 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline 		Actually, I have never said that her concept of reality is fake, where she has repeatedly stated that those who do maintain any rights are not true slaves. Anymore that I would claim that Emeraldslave's concept is invalid because she is poly.

"Lack of respect" due to age is not exactly what is occurring. When you have only ever experienced one way of living, you can't really speak intelligently about other ways. Kind of like the communists trying to talk about how democracy feels.

Age is relevant to many things in life, including this. Sure, people over 40 have said the same thing, but the fact is that youth does effect ones thinking, just as old age does. When you are 23 and get carded to buy liquor, you get insulted, when you are 40, you are flattered. Why? Because of life experience. With youth comes arrogance, with age wisdom. This many not ALWAYS be the case, but when it isn't, that is the exception.

I am sure that I will hear from all of those who are young and are just too happy to prove me right. As for Lordandmaster's comments....you are more often than not snide enough for everyone.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 7:54:09 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut
"Lack of respect" due to age is not exactly what is occurring. When you have only ever experienced one way of living, you can't really speak intelligently about other ways.

That's not necessarily true. I've never lived a gorean life, that doesn't mean I can't make some intelligent remarks about it.

quote:


Age is relevant to many things in life, including this.

I really don't see how age is REALLY relevant to the topic at hand.

Of course age is a factor in who we are and what our perspectives may be.

But then so is our gender, but you didn't think to bring that up.

And so is a persons race and you didn't see fit to bring that up either.

And a persons religion, social status, family background, even physical location ALL go into forming who we are and what our perspectives of life will be.

And yet you chose AGE as the bone to dig up here, as somehow a real key factor in all this. Why that and not any of the others?

Being someone who used to have the age card pulled on her, oh every other week or so, I know when it's being played and I know what its purpose is.

I still GET the age card played on me, but it happens less and less the older I get. I'm certainly not surprised by it, and I wasn't surprised by it when I was younger either. But I recognize it for the worthless effort of typing and the irrelevance to the topic that it is- and for this particular topic, it was irrelevant to bring it up as it would have been to bring up her being female.

Argue the points based on their logical merit...not some irrelevant trait.

< Message edited by EmeraldSlave2 -- 10/2/2005 7:56:39 PM >

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 10:04:11 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		What daddysprop said was very clear:

quote:

however feeling one has a "right" to leave...feeling one is entitled to certain treatment? that is not slavery imo. but why should you care what i feel is or is not slavery?


IMO means IN MY OPINION. How could she have stated it any more clearly than that? You might not like her opinion; you might even consider it irrational; but it's HER opinion, not yours.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut

Actually, I have never said that her concept of reality is fake, where she has repeatedly stated that those who do maintain any rights are not true slaves.

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 10:26:00 PM   
FLButtSlut


Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
Status: offline 		I am well aware of what the IMO means. It also is far too often (as in here) used as a means of saying "because you don't do it my way, you aren't really what you claim". Which incidentally has been said repeatedly. I can't help you if you can't understand the difference between a personal choice and reality, which in this case are quite different.

ES2

Her age and YOUR age do make a difference in your perspective. The fact that you did exactly as I said the younger would do serves only to prove my point. As for your other "perspective defining" issues.

Gender: Actually only plays a role if her belief is that she must be a slave because she is a woman. She has never even implied that to be, in her opinion, her belief.

Religion: It isn't mentioned, so it is not possible to say what part that plays in her beliefs.

Social Status: Given what she has said her life consists of, she has no social status, although I would go out on a limb and say that growing up, she probably didn't have much social status either.

Family background: Sounds as if she has walked away from her family, and it is likely if they knew what she chose as her life, they wouldn't be thrilled. Parents are funny that way. We tend to protect our children from any form of abuse whether they consent to it or not.

Physical location: Locked away from the world with no independent contacts certainly WILL have an impact on your view of things. I believe in most intelligent circles that is called BRAINWASHING.

Race: Actually, I did mention it, as did she. Is it possible to go into great detail about it? Certainly, however, that is going beyond the unpolitically correct.

Realistically, the only way someone can have "legal power" to keep you from leaving is to have gained guardianship, something that only happens when one is legally found to be incompetent to care for themselves. Interestingly enough, that just opens an entire other issue.


(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Giving the Dom control over release: being released... - 10/2/2005 10:33:15 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		You realize that this is ad hominem, right?

(I mean, if you're going to resort to one of the most discredited fallacies of all, at least you should be aware that you're doing it.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut

ES2

Her age and YOUR age do make a difference in your perspective. The fact that you did exactly as I said the younger would do serves only to prove my point.


(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 60
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