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RE: True submission is... - 9/27/2005 10:09:34 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

How about a sub who's focused on his needs AND your needs? What label do we give those guys?
A considerate gentleman, and the kind of vanilla I would date and corrupt. M

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RE: True submission is... - 9/27/2005 10:12:41 PM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

How about a sub who's focused on his needs AND your needs? What label do we give those guys?
A considerate gentleman, and the kind of vanilla I would date and corrupt. M


Lucky bastard.

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RE: True submission is... - 9/27/2005 10:15:23 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

quote:
ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
quote:
Take one of the guys from the 87%. Let's say he's a good partner in all sorts of vanilla ways. Compare him to a guy from the 1% of ideal subs, or whatever you want to call them.

What -- specifically -- does the sub (1%) do for you that the kinky guy (87%) does not?A kinky guy to me is someone who wants an equal relationship, with focus on what brings him pleasure mostly, with occasional consideration to my kinky/play needs.

That doesn't sound like a very equal relationship to me.
By equal, I mean he does his man thing, I do my woman thing, no one tells the other what to do, and we tie each other up or use strap on (in my case, lol) in the bedroom.
A lot of kinky men I've run into online are not even datable as vanilla, because they lack that certain je-ne-sais-quois (or maybe I know*social skills, charm, mix of strength/kindness/benevolence*), so it would be no fun at all to be kinky with someone like that because I would feel I'm serving him by submitting to his kinky desires, but not getting my needs met. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 9/28/2005 2:16:34 AM >


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RE: True submission is... - 9/28/2005 3:03:23 AM   
Jasmyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn

Oh and the fact we wouldn't be sharing responsibility for the household, it would be his job to look after and maintain the household...I have better things to be doing than the mundane.. like having my nails down ;)



I saw the wink, so I'm not sure how seriously to take this.

Do you really mean that? Maintain the household, inside and out, all by himself, with no assistance or shared responsibility on your part?


Yes I do really mean it.

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RE: True submission is... - 9/28/2005 4:02:08 AM   
eslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyKim
For me a submissive is someone that truly has a deep need to please. Someone who gets true pleasure from being told 'good girl... good boy'. A person that knows they need to find someone to care for, perform for, nurture, and see smile because of something they did. A person who views being 'used' for someone else's enjoyment as the beginning to their own satisfaction and sense of self.


i think this where W/we touch the real issue here : the "real" submissive can only be defined between both parties, when they do agree on it. For everything else, W/we'll end in having the whole gamut of "in between" responses, with lots of different "shades" of submission. And W/we then get back to the "ideal or compromise" thread...

For example, here is a little exercise : trying to relate to LadyKim's definition, i find myself close enough, but not quite. am i a real submissive then ? i would not according to LadyKim (if W/we do forget the "ideal or compromise" tricky part...). For example : i get a real rush hearing "good boy" when i did perform something for My Lady (anything). But this rush is mainly sexual. It does arouse me, every-time. So am i a KNG because the "reward" i get from it is a sexual (self) gratification ?
Also, i do not *need* to find someone to care for, perform for or nurture and see smile. i'm perfectly happy, too, when being single (vanilla) and/or not in a BDSM relationship. What drives me back to a BDSM relationship is, again, mainly a sexual urge. So, i should clearly be a KNG at that point. But if i keep reading LadyKim's own definition, i actually *truly* get my satisfaction from being "used" by my Lady for her enjoyment, in any kind, and this knowledge alone is the foundation of my submissive drive. i get my kick out of knowing that whatever it is i'm ordered to do, this is because She decided She would enjoy it and She considered me as Her submissive. So, now, i might be a true submissive again. But, then, wait... that satisfaction i get through knowing i'm being used for Her own amusement *is* mainly a sexual one. Arghhh... back to HNG status again :)

So, while this was a quite stupid exercise i admit, it kind of shows that the spectrum of who is submissive to who goes through a lot more possibilities than just being "real" or "kinky". And that's better left for each party to decide before they agree on playing (and i'm not even touching the subject of chemistry and "turn on" factor : i've met Ladies that i immediately felt really submissive to Them even though They never called Themselves that way or even were into BDSM, while other calling themselves Mistresses just brought the sadist out of me !)

eslave.


< Message edited by eslave -- 9/28/2005 4:06:40 AM >

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RE: True submission is... - 9/28/2005 5:00:39 AM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

And there is nothing wrong with an ordinary, run of the mill masculine adult who shares responsibility for the household, etc. -- ironically, a "vanilla" guy can sometimes be a better submissive than a "self labeled" sub. It's because his acts of devotion are sincere and an act of love -- that's it -- and not an act to fill a need of his own that will leave him empty and depressed if he isn't getting his "fix." A submissive that "needs" to serve to feel self worth or feel needed can be nagging, moody and pushy. A devoted husband does what he needs to do to keep his relationship in harmony and his wife happy -- because he feels compelled to -- not because he wants something in return.


Thanks Akasha, that clears up a lot of things. Do you find that the H/K/B guys are totally untrainable? I mean, is it possible they just need to be educated or made sensitive to what a female dominant wants? I get the feeling that it's the kind of a thing where once a lady classifies a guy that way, it's boom, out the door. I'm sure there are a lot of guys who will just never get it, but I would bet a lot of them would come around too, if they only knew what their potential partner wanted.

I guess I'm wrestling with this composite picture that's developed in my mind about what Dominant women want. On the one hand, there's the image of the classically attractive vanilla male, with all sorts of conventional masculine qualities that women desire. That picture has come up again and again. And then on the other hand, there's this picture of the infinitely devoted guy who drops everything at a moment's notice to clean her bathroom or whatever. That picture also keeps coming up again and again. And I guess if women here are looking for both of those things in the same person, whew. That is a very tall order. No wonder everyone's having a hard time.

It's almost as bad as my latex Barbie fantasy

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RE: True submission is... - 9/28/2005 5:33:47 AM   
MistressKay


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quote:

Let me ask the question a different way.

In the other post, you mentioned your study in which you found that 87% of the men in your sample were (at best, to use your words) kinky bottoms. The other 13% were -- presumably superior -- candidates for a relationship with a dominant woman, of which 12% were basically unacceptable for one reason or another.


I never said the 13% were superior in any way - I said they craved submission whether they were aroused or not where as the original 87% only craved submission when they were aroused. Loose the arousal and they loose the desire to submit. Since most FemDommes are looking for a man who will serve them whether their partner is aroused or not, the 87% don't fit what the "average" FemDomme is looking for.

quote:

Take one of the guys from the 87%. Let's say he's a good partner in all sorts of vanilla ways. Compare him to a guy from the 1% of ideal subs, or whatever you want to call them.

What -- specifically -- does the sub (1%) do for you that the kinky guy (87%) does not?


For me personally I am not looking for that one percent, but the average FemDomme IS. The difference is the desire to please their partner after they orgasm... Although a guy in the 87% might be willing to do things, he will not be in a submissive headspace after orgasm. The headspace ONLY exists in that heightened state of arousal. If a FemDomme is looking for a 24/7 submissive the 87% will not meet their needs.

As for myself - my partner falls in the 87% because I desire more in a partner than just submission. Our relationship is balanced and is an equal power exchange in many ways - it is difficult to explain the differences in text but I will give it my best shot if for no other reason than to offer a different view of things -

My partner is ONLY submissive when aroused - the rest of the time he is 100% dominant alpha male and my equal - he has always controlled all his previous relationships because he is such a powerful alpha force - and yet me being his Mistress levels the playing field because I am the one woman he can't control and when it comes to intimacy he is at MY beck and call.

I often refer to our relationship as a Knight and his Lady - On his own he is a powerful individual force to be reconned with - and yet he lays all that power and strength at the feet of his lady ready to give his life to protect, honor, and serve her. It does not weaken him to be at her feet - it empowers him as a man. When we are out in public, he will often take the lead but even in that lead he never forgets what I am to him and he is quick to serve me a drink, or pull out chairs or open doors always seeing to my comfort and in his small gestures once more expressing his submission under the surface of it all... for as I said before his submission is connected completely with his level of arousal (or passion) and no matter where we are his passion for me is there and thus his submission smoulders under the surface of his dominantly outword appearance.

He is the man in this relationship and I allow him the right to make the final decision on many things where I feel his wisdom and knowledge will get the results we both want... however my input is asked every step of the way so that we are both on the same track. From all outside appearances "he is the man of the household" and I love being his lady. Being a woman is something I embrace as I see all my strengths and weaknesses as the blending of all that is feminine. Like a powerful tree with delicate leaves it is that balance of hard/soft firm/gentle rough/tender that brought together makes up the whole. Without the soft leaves the tree dies - I need my soft feminine side as much as I need my hard rough sadistic edges. Still always a lady - this is who I am.

I don't know if I was able to express this well - but I do hope my words have provided another view from a different angle...

Lady Kay
Ottawa, ON Canada

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RE: True submission is... - 9/28/2005 5:43:38 AM   
MistressJan


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A True Submissive is one who does not lie, play games, and is unfaithful to their Mistress.

Respectfully,

Mistress_Jan

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RE: True submission is... - 9/29/2005 4:47:43 AM   
pollux


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quote:

I never said the 13% were superior in any way - I said they craved submission whether they were aroused or not where as the original 87% only craved submission when they were aroused. Loose the arousal and they loose the desire to submit. Since most FemDommes are looking for a man who will serve them whether their partner is aroused or not, the 87% don't fit what the "average" FemDomme is looking for.


Not to quibble with you, but more in just sort of explaining where I'm coming from....

It seemed to me like you were dividing men into progressively smaller subsets, where each new subset was more (potentially) desirable than the last. I appreciate you clarifying what you meant. As a card-carrying member of the 87% club, I'm encouraged to hear you married one.

quote:

I don't know if I was able to express this well - but I do hope my words have provided another view from a different angle...


Eloquently and beautifully said.

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RE: True submission is... - 9/29/2005 5:10:25 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shayna
quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux
Suppose your horny/kinky/bottomy guy just happens to be an ordinary, run of the mill, mature, masculine adult, and a gentleman. He loves and cares for his partner, shares responsibility for the household with her, helps her, provides support when needed -- all the things we normally associate with good relationship dynamics.


My dream sub


I second this but I’d say my dream partner, because I want my partner to be so much more then just submissive.

I’ve taken sometime to respond to this thread as it an issue I’ve struggled with a lot.

Those who know me somewhat here know that I have a preference for socially dominant, strong men who have the desire to submit to me. For a long time, I had the issue of meeting men who had the desire to submit when he was horny but post-coitus, was perhaps less devoted. I figured this was a trade-off of trying to tame an alpha male ;-)

But recently, in conversing with a man that I am quite fond of (that’s an understatement), I’ve realised I can truly have the best of both worlds. An alpha male can be truly devoted at anytime and under any circumstance if you are a right fit.

So I don’t think it’s so much an issue of whether or not someone is a "truly submissive" or not but rather if they are in the right relationship and feel safe to completely express their devotion.

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: True submission is... - 9/29/2005 7:31:04 AM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
But recently, in conversing with a man that I am quite fond of (that’s an understatement), I’ve realised I can truly have the best of both worlds. An alpha male can be truly devoted at anytime and under any circumstance if you are a right fit.


One of my dominant female friends introduced me to a series of books by English author Peter O'Donnell. The main character in these books is a highly competent women called Modesty Blaise. Her second in command is Willy Garvin who is both highly intelligent and very skilled but he is devoted to Blaise. Her comment was "THIS is that I want for a submissive. I can see her point.

http://www.cs.umu.se/~kenth/modesty.html



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RE: True submission is... - 9/29/2005 10:27:07 AM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shayna
quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux
Suppose your horny/kinky/bottomy guy just happens to be an ordinary, run of the mill, mature, masculine adult, and a gentleman. He loves and cares for his partner, shares responsibility for the household with her, helps her, provides support when needed -- all the things we normally associate with good relationship dynamics.


My dream sub


I second this but I’d say my dream partner, because I want my partner to be so much more then just submissive.

I’ve taken sometime to respond to this thread as it an issue I’ve struggled with a lot.

Those who know me somewhat here know that I have a preference for socially dominant, strong men who have the desire to submit to me. For a long time, I had the issue of meeting men who had the desire to submit when he was horny but post-coitus, was perhaps less devoted. I figured this was a trade-off of trying to tame an alpha male ;-)

But recently, in conversing with a man that I am quite fond of (that’s an understatement), I’ve realised I can truly have the best of both worlds. An alpha male can be truly devoted at anytime and under any circumstance if you are a right fit.

So I don’t think it’s so much an issue of whether or not someone is a "truly submissive" or not but rather if they are in the right relationship and feel safe to completely express their devotion.

- LA


I don't know if this will make sense at all, but I think some men who are the alpha male type (but may submit in the context of sexuality but it wanes after sex) may have an extremely devoted side -- EXTREMELY -- but he will not let anyone - even a woman he is dating - know, until SHE has earned it. Not in a bad way -- but just as we protect our most dominant side sometimes until we have comfort and trust with a man, they don't shell out their fullest devotion until a woman has earned his trust and love.

And, this make sense. A guy that showed devotion on that level, or the potential for devotion on that level, could be taken for a sucker and taken advantage of by a woman who knew how to use it for her personal gain. So he doesn't even let on that he's capable of it (I don't think this is a conscious move at all) until he's fallen for her. Once there is a bond of love, he is the most devoted soul you will ever meet -- and devoted ONLY to you.

How do you tell, then, when a man like this is courting you? I think it might be hard, but I do think there are some qualities that show he might be like that. Most important is sincerity and honesty (Devotion is something that can be faked, and lots of guys fake it to get what they want), honor, integrity, the capacity for love (a heart that has not been broken completely or full of mistrust), morals, kindness, an unselfish nature, courteous, etc.

The thing is, a guy won't show this kind of devotion unless he means it, because he takes it so seriously, and because it *is* 100% and unconditional. This is the kind of guy that you have as a boyfriend or husband and your friends constantly pull you aside and say "Where did you FIND this GUY?" -- the truth is, he wasn't that way when you were first dating; he became that man when you fell in love with each other.

I believe it DOES exist!! :)

Akasha

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Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

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RE: True submission is... - 9/29/2005 10:48:21 AM   
lonewolf05


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i dunno. maybe it's me? it seems you keep asking the wrong questions...
equal? i have never heard of any Domme/sub being equal.. it is about HER...not him.

but maybe there is a new generation i don't know about?

you asked about doing all the housework alone w/o aid or assistance? yeah! it's how "I" was trained AND how "I" do it with my Mistress......

is there something i missed somewhere in your posts that maybe i am off point on? lemme help if i CAN..

wolf


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RE: True submission is... - 9/29/2005 11:00:56 AM   
AAkasha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05

i dunno. maybe it's me? it seems you keep asking the wrong questions...
equal? i have never heard of any Domme/sub being equal.. it is about HER...not him.

but maybe there is a new generation i don't know about?

you asked about doing all the housework alone w/o aid or assistance? yeah! it's how "I" was trained AND how "I" do it with my Mistress......

is there something i missed somewhere in your posts that maybe i am off point on? lemme help if i CAN..

wolf



You need to recognize that when people ask relationship questions they are talking about relationships that are far different from what you personally sought. They are talking about relationships with women that include intimacy, sex, intercourse, passion, holding hands in the park, play tickling and fighting, romance, building a life together.

What you sought was a non romantic, non sensual, non sexual relationship where you provide service in exchange for dominance and room & board. Your femdom is married so I presume the romantic, physical, sensual relationship she has (which is what is discussed on this thread) is with her husband.

Akasha

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Don't email me here, email me at [email protected]

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RE: True submission is... - 9/29/2005 11:13:09 AM   
lonewolf05


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room and board? uh...NOT!

i pay my way thank You....

my acct. is directly deposited in HERS...k?
but otherwise yeah...You are pretty close to target...mine is NOT part of the "norm" of MOST humans...i am not into or look for romance and intimacy and the like.. mine IS only DOMESTIC SERVICES...She IS married..yes.

wolf


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RE: True submission is... - 9/29/2005 11:17:38 AM   
Oumae


Posts: 911
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05

i dunno. maybe it's me? it seems you keep asking the wrong questions...
equal? i have never heard of any Domme/sub being equal.. it is about HER...not him.

but maybe there is a new generation i don't know about?

you asked about doing all the housework alone w/o aid or assistance? yeah! it's how "I" was trained AND how "I" do it with my Mistress......

is there something i missed somewhere in your posts that maybe i am off point on? lemme help if i CAN..

wolf



I'm not a Domme who thinks it is all about me!
Yes, I want it my way but I also want my sub to feel happy and fulfilled. Thats why I look for a male who is compatable with me. In my way of thinking it is all about "us".

Oumae

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RE: True submission is... - 9/29/2005 8:42:17 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
The thing is, a guy won't show this kind of devotion unless he means it, because he takes it so seriously, and because it *is* 100% and unconditional. This is the kind of guy that you have as a boyfriend or husband and your friends constantly pull you aside and say "Where did you FIND this GUY?" -- the truth is, he wasn't that way when you were first dating; he became that man when you fell in love with each other.

I believe it DOES exist!! :)

Akasha


As quite often you are, again, you are BANG ON.

- LA

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: True submission is... - 9/29/2005 9:48:53 PM   
ProtagonistLily


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This topic makes me cringe and grin all at the same time. Thanks pollux, my face hurts now ~Grin~

I'm an equal opportunity submissive, so I gotta ring in on the fem sub side of this, because I think there are just as many horny/kinky/bottomy girl does/says X, then a true submissive would do or say Y as there are guys.

The "True" thing has pissed me off for years. The chicks who prance around in their expensive fetish wear, whose eyes are always downcast, and who never say shit if their mouths are full, except to utter the fact that they are a 'natural submissive', ignore the rest of the female submissives but befriend the hot male subs and are all about The Masters, are women I tend not to get involved with aside from a cursory nod or hello. To me, these women are the HNG's of the real life scene. They giggle and stand in the back ground, waiting for some poor slob to rescue them. And at the same time, they snipe and backtalk those of us who are 'un-natural' submissives, as if they are in some way better than the rest of us who can say shit whether our mouths are full or not. Now if those girls are being true to themselves, good for them. But they don't hold the patent on true submission.

To me, true submission isn't about just me at all. We can theorize until the cows come home, but practice is a wholly differant animal simply because of the variables that we encounter with another person, and no two people bring the same set of variables to the table.

It's about allowing myself to be under the control of another person. And you know what? That's hard sometimes. To actually be owned by someone else who's got the strength of character, the mind, the articulation, the drive and the desire to control you can be trying sometime. It's difficult to learn new ways to communicate, to remember that I have to think about Sir at the same time I'm thinking about myself. It's hard when I stick my boot in my mouth and fuck something up and disappoint him, or even hurt him. We are relatively new as a D/s couple, and we are still learning each other. So, we have hit a few bumps, and have had some growing pains.

Submitting to this man is both the most challenging and the most rewarding thing I've ever done. He requires more of me than I ever required of myself. He has high standards for himself and he applies them to me. He has expectations he expects me to meet. And sometimes I struggle with those things, and when I'm struggling, I discuss it with him. Sometimes I fight him a little, but in the end, when all is said and done, I willingly submit.

And in my opinion, for what ever it's worth, that's what true submission means. True Submission isn't about showing up with all the gear and being totally user friendly. It's about showing up, and giving up control in stages, learning that person, trusting that person, struggling, and then giving up more.

The truth, from where I stand, is in overcoming the internal battle within one's self to continue to trust and give up the control. In giving up the control, I find the freedom that I never had before.

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: True submission is... - 9/29/2005 9:56:20 PM   
LRODANDMASTER


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HAY HOW DID YOU GEUSS BANG ON IS MY MOTTO IN LFIE!?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

As quite often you are, again, you are BANG ON.



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RE: True submission is... - 9/29/2005 9:57:10 PM   
LadyAngelika


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You are *such* a spaz!!! LOL

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 40
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