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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 7:40:17 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Like so many of the current 'good guys vs. bad guys' scenarios being played out around the world today, the footprint of British neo-imperialism is all over the history of Tibet. That region of the world was a loose collection of petty warlords, with the religious leaders offering some sort of hope or distraction to the people caught in a very rigid have/have not life.

In the aftermath of various conflicts between Japan and China over who 'owned' a bunch of people most of them had never even seen, The British came in with their standard set of imaginary dividing lines on a map, and mucked it up completely, setting the stage for the PRC to do what they did.

None of which is relevant to whether or not the China should have the world's approval for doing what they did and are still doing iin Tibet.


I think you will find it was British imperialism and not British neo-imperialism that interfered with Tibet. British neo-imperialism is American imperialism's lapdog in Iraq and the ME in general. Though I bet you don't complain about British imperialism in regard to Israel.

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(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 7:57:56 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

No Genocide Olympics!!!!

Make some noise for freedom!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080315/ap_on_re_as/china_tibet


If China had any sense it would devolve government in Tibet but of course it is worried that should it allow Tibet self government then other minorities that don't allie themselves to the majority Chinese will want self government.

But I am sceptical as to the motives of the west which I doubt really cares about Tibet as much as getting at the Chinese which are the real target of such cries as 'No genocide Olympics'. Especially since there are a lot on unsavoury things happening in Tibet but genocide isn't one of them. Some ethnic cleansing and cultural hegemony, yes but the western countries involved in calling for a free Tibet ignore such crimes elsewhere and indeed have been guilty and still are guilty of similar crimes.

Back to Tibet, for some strange reason people always seem to find it better to have the jackboot owned by one of their  own on their throat than the jackboot of someone else, as though there is a qualative difference. Tibetans freed from the Chinese yoke will not be free, they will be serfs kow towing to a thoecracy which is why I find it difficult to get worked up about the situation.

As for the Olympics, I remember the boycoting of the Los Angeles and Moscow Olympics in the eighties and I thought the Olympics should cease to be then because they were hijacked by unsavoury people then and the current situation where a campaign is beginning to grow for the boycot of the Chinese Olympics by equally unsavoury people who are more concerned with getting one over on the host than really helping anyone else, in this case the Tibetans.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/16/2008 7:59:39 AM >

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 8:03:07 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		No shit, everyone hates Americans, huh.


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sure they do, they hate the U.S. those treacherous bastards!
That's what those on the left have been making abundantly clear for the last few years.


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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 8:14:16 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Celticlord asks me whether I think the policies of China in Tibet are wrong. The answer is I dont know enough about the history of China/Tibet.
It seems since no one has contradicted his points that slaveboy from Arkansas  got it right when speaking of the state of serfdom in Tibet's recent past. Well serfdom isn't much of a loss...is it ?

With regard to China remember that they entered into an agreement with the UK over the return of Hong Kong and kept it. They do have an extreme authoritarian record in the short term past, but are not things changing ?

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 8:19:14 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		And all you have to do is cover your eyes and ears, to not see any evidence to the contrary...neat trick, hmmmm?


BTW:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080316/ap_on_re_as/china_tibet

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 3/16/2008 8:25:25 AM >

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 8:22:26 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

God, I'd LOVE to be a congressman or senator and personally answer a few calls from those idiots!



Go for it  .

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 8:31:37 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Yeah, sure - they're changing. China is building up a super military! Soon they will do to Europe what they've done to Tibet and then people not affected might shrug and say, eh, not much of a loss, that.


quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Celticlord asks me whether I think the policies of China in Tibet are wrong. The answer is I dont know enough about the history of China/Tibet.
It seems since no one has contradicted his points that slaveboy from Arkansas  got it right when speaking of the state of serfdom in Tibet's recent past. Well serfdom isn't much of a loss...is it ?

With regard to China remember that they entered into an agreement with the UK over the return of Hong Kong and kept it. They do have an extreme authoritarian record in the short term past, but are not things changing ?


_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 8:46:49 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Yeah, sure - they're changing. China is building up a super military! Soon they will do to Europe what they've done to Tibet and then people not affected might shrug and say, eh, not much of a loss, that.



There isnt a hope in hell that China would invade Europe.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 8:49:49 AM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		You mean the People's Autonomous Region number 142?  

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 9:09:47 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I really dont think this is all as clear cut as we might hope.

What is for absolute certain, is that China isnt ever going to change, in general or in relation to Tibet, if we take an antagonistic stance towards their past and present human rights and cultural attitudes - and there is no way in the world that anyone would seriously consider anything more than making noises with regard to taking an antagonistic stance.

We must also bear in mind that China has one of the oldest cultures in the world, in relation to which our western civilisation is a mere upstart; we have to show respect even if it does stick in the craw. At the same time, the past and present state of human rights in China and their cultural imperialism in the case of Tibet, are matters which none of us find acceptable.

My view is, that change within China (and by association change in Tibet) is far more likely if we take a balanced attitude towards China - yes, we have to make noises about the changes we'd like to see, but we must also recognise that the changes made in the last decade or so have come about mainly not by us making noises, but by the needs for China to change if it wishes to engage in the world economy and through our encouragement rather than our censure.

Personally, I cant stand the Olympics, and I very much would like to see greater change in China and so Tibet. Yet on balance it is probably the right decision that the Chinese get to hold the games, as both a recognition of the progress made so far and an encouragement and reminder that there is more yet to be done.

E

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 9:18:11 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

We must also bear in mind that China has one of the oldest cultures in the world, in relation to which our western civilisation is a mere upstart; we have to show respect even if it does stick in the craw.



China today is not the culture that existed long ago...why would anyone have to bow and scrape to someone because they used to have an Emperor? India and Africa have older cultures, so we should show our respect for the genocide in Darfur, and the atrocities committed by greedy modern politicians who happened to be born there?

Hogwash.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 9:19:32 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Celticlord asks me whether I think the policies of China in Tibet are wrong. The answer is I dont know enough about the history of China/Tibet.


If you do not know whether China is in the right or in the wrong, how are you able to make the charge that western opposition to those policies as expressed in this forum is racist cant?

Or are you merely engaging in a perverse reverse jingoism to gratify some contrarian impulse?




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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 9:21:55 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Yeah, sure - they're changing. China is building up a super military! Soon they will do to Europe what they've done to Tibet .........edited
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
They (China) do have an extreme authoritarian record in the short term past, but are not things changing ?


China have had major military power for many years now even back to the days when your "principled?" President Nixon changed his opportunistic habits of a career lifetime to prove what a statesman he was. He tried to accomodate China if you recall.

I have read too many articles saying that in China's terms a major liberal shift has occurred especially on the economic front.
The are defeating the West and in particular the US economically, they have no need of military escapades outside of their immediate sphere of influence.

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 9:22:32 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

And you've been to Tibet how many times?


Probably as many times as the people who place "Free Tibet" t-shirts and put similar bumper stickers on their volvos.  By the way I like the chip on my shoulder, it keeps me from living with my head in the clouds. 


If you are content, why the anger?


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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 9:25:29 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

And all you have to do is cover your eyes and ears, to not see any evidence to the contrary...neat trick, hmmmm?



I have read the stories Alumbrado.  But something you seem to want to gloss over are these words: "the Dalai Lama's government in exile."  Government in exile, huh?  So the Dalai Lama apparently has no intention or establishing democracy if Tibet was to become a sovereign state.  Like I said before, the Dalai Lama and his team are in this for their own purposes.  He wants to return to Tibet and rule absolutely.  If he wanted democracy, he wouldn't be calling his team "government in exile." 

I will tell you why this irritates me.  The people that idolize the Dalai Lama and decorate themselves with "Free Tibet" paraphernalia are the people that wear pictures of the murdering thug Che Guevera on t-shirts.  They don't have a clue about the reality surrounding the history of these causes they take up.  They overlook the fact that the Dalai Lama and his ilk were on the CIA's payroll for decades.  They helped finance armed incursions into Tibet.  Men of peace, they are not.  They readily believe lies and propaganda from a man that has never worked a day in his life.  The Dalai Lama is not a great man.  He is a lazy, self serving con man that lucked into his position in life.  He can write all the idealistic, man of peace nonsense he wants.  He can rub noses with Hollywood elitists (also a bunch of misinformed, uneducated morons) and make self-serving speeches to idealistic, naive college students all he wants.  But it will never change the history of what went on in Tibet prior to China's occupation. 

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 3/16/2008 9:30:34 AM >

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 9:28:26 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

It seems since no one has contradicted his points that slaveboy from Arkansas got it right when speaking of the state of serfdom in Tibet's recent past. Well serfdom isn't much of a loss...is it ?

Democracy is not the choice of every people.  Invasion is the choice only of a conquering people.
  1. Tibet was invaded.  That his historical fact. 
  2. Their culture has been attacked.  That is historical fact. 
  3. China is the aggressor nation.  That is historical fact.
We endorse the territorial sovereignty of Kosovo, we support the rights of Kurds; why exclude Tibet?


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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 9:29:52 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

The Dalai Lama is not a great man.

Simply put, you are in error.


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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 9:30:11 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Celticlord asks me(seeks) whether I think the policies of China in Tibet are wrong. The answer is I dont know enough about the history of China/Tibet.

If you do not know whether China is in the right or in the wrong, how are you able to make the charge that western opposition to those policies as expressed in this forum is racist cant?

Because many seem to have no qualms about not criticising other authoritarian regimes or more particularly policies  if it suits them

quote:

Or are you merely engaging in a perverse reverse jingoism to gratify some contrarian impulse?
Yes

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 9:34:23 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

I have read the stories Alumbrado. But something you seem to want to gloss over are these words: "the Dalai Lama's government in exhile." Government in exhile, huh? So the Dalai Lama apparently has no intention or establishing democracy if Tibet was to become a soveriegn state. Like I said before, the Dalai Lama and his team are in this for their own purposes. He wants to return to Tibet and rule absolutely. If he wanted democracy, he wouldn't be calling his team "government in exhile."


The quest for democracy is the only virtue?

Thinking like that is how we get fiascoes such as Iraq.  Not every nation of the earth chooses democracy, and not every nation of the earth should be compelled to accept democracy.  But neither should any nation of the earth be compelled to accept the diktat of an invading aggressor nation.

Regardless of Tibet's internal politics prior to Chinese occupation, China is the invading aggressor nation.  Angry rants about Tibet prior to Chinese occupation will not change the thuggish reality of that occupation.


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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 9:41:12 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

Because many seem to have no qualms about not criticising other authoritarian regimes or more particularly policies if it suits them


An odd form of straw man argument.  In addition to being wrong, it is wholly irrelevant to the topic at hand. 

Beijing is an oppressive repressive regime.  To deny that is to deny current events (and not merely in Tibet).  Voicing specific opposition to one oppressive regime is itself not  tacit acceptance of other oppressive regimes.  Your thesis is factually suspect and logically incoherent.

Whole lot of words amounting to: You are wrong.


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Profile   Post #: 80
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