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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/16/2008 11:20:05 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

You denounce HH The Dalai Lama because he subscribes to a differing cosmology from yours.

You are, of course, at liberty to do so; it renders your assessment of Tibetan culture highly suspect.

The Tibetans are....Tibetan.  Their culture is not my culture, nor would I wish to live as a Tibetan.  I do, however, desire that Tibetans be allowed to live as Tibetans. 

Say what you will about their culture, you cannot dispute that Tibetans were living in peace in a stable regime prior to the Chinese invasion.  They did not threaten their neighbors.  The same cannot be said of the Chinese. 

Yet you weigh both nations in the balance and somehow find the Tibetans wanting.  I would say it is a curious logic you have, but your own words amount to a rejection of logic.

Anger drives a man in so many perverse ways.


I denounce the Dalai Lama because he comes to the United States and tells lies in order to raise money and gather support.  I don't care about his views on the universe.  My assessments are based on actual, factual history.  You can call them suspect all you want, and you can call feudalism a cultural difference but it's not. 

I haven't said anything negative about Tibetans.  You seems to want to try and paint my argument that way.  All I have done is point out the flaws in the arguments made by the Dalai Lama and his supporters.  He and they make those arguments in front of Westerners.  I have every right to call into question his motives.  Despite your assertion, the Tibetans were not "living in peace." with a stable regime. 

Despite your attacks on my logic, you have not made one argument that disproves the history I described.  You just want to pretend those things didn't happen because you admire the Dalai Lama.  It's sort of like Hitler admirers pretending the Holocaust didn't happen. 

I am not angry, and your attempts to paint me that way are nothing but veiled personal attacks.  Logic seems to be important to you, so why do you keep trying to access my emotional state.  I'm not angry.  I think you may be angry that someone dared to attack your personal hero. 

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/17/2008 1:40:04 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

And we're not just talking about competition we're talking about potential world war. Here and where you live people can protest and they can vote and they have something of a say in matters of war and peace. But in places like China and Tibet they don't. Perhaps someday you might see the difference, and understand why that causes some people legitimate concern.



Sanity, this is my problem, only America is talking about potential war, why?

What is the difference between Tibetans and Palestinians? One wants freedom from an American allie and one wants freedom from an American rival.

Not even the hard right here has the opinion that China is arming itself for war. All the reports here about China arming itself are quotes from Washington, European politicians reject the idea and consider China more involved with similar activity to the western world of securing resources. However, this constant fight for resources is pretty pointless because the world's habitat can't cope with the average Chinese even having half the life style of average westerners. The problem in the rise of China is not a security one in the sense of military security but security because of the severe degradation of the world's environment, something already under threat from western activity. This also involves the rise of India. American pre-occupation with potential Chinese militarism is seen as an anachronism here because security issues will be internal if environmental degradation continues. If climate scientists are right, countries like Britain and Holland have the potential to lose vast areas of land. This concern is so high in Holland because of an already rise in sea levels and threatened land loss, it is already building multi billion euro sea barriers. Potential and hypothetical Chinese militarism is way down the list of concerns.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/17/2008 1:45:16 AM >

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/17/2008 1:55:13 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		General point.

The OP writes "NO Genocide Olympics". I was listening to a report on the BBC today in which the Dalai Lama said cultural genocide was happening in Tibet. Some proffessor offered an alternative view, saying there might be many things wrong in Tibet but cultural genocide is not one of them, apparently there are more budhist priests per capita in Tibet than any other budhist country in the world and the Tibetan language is growing. It was also pointed out that Tibet is not the only region of China which has experienced riots, most of which are caused through environmental issues because of severe environmental degradation due to rapid development and the loss of traditional ways of life without new opportunities opening up. If this is the case, China has a similar problem to what western countries had in the industrial revolution. It is just a case of how they respond. If they respond like western countries did, the will try to keep the status quo by keeping lid on the violence but hopefully like the west, eventually realise to keep power the government has to give way and compromise on certain issues.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/17/2008 1:56:44 AM >

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/17/2008 3:38:23 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I'm not angry.


If you insist.....


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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/17/2008 4:12:50 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		16 dead in Tibet riots

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080317/ap_on_re_as/china_tibet

BEIJING - Tibet's governor promised leniency to anti-Chinese protesters who turned themselves in before the end of Monday — and harsh consequences for those who don't — while troops fanned out to quell sympathy protests that have spread to three neighboring provinces.
 
To MC,
 
The Dalai Lama called what`s happening "cultural genocide".


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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/17/2008 6:25:01 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		I'm no lover of China Owner but perspective is what is needed, especially when there are western politicians that would use the situation in Tibet as an excuse to further their anti-Chinese goals and don't really give a fig about Tibetans per se.

As for 16 dead, it is a tragedy but wasn't there 52 dead in the Los Angeles riots and didn't the Israelis kill around 200 or so Palestinians recently of which estimates by human rights organisations claim over 100 were women, children and the very old.



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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/17/2008 6:42:45 AM   
Sanity


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Status: offline 		It's a strange sort of logic that can use totally unrelated events to try to justify a human rights tragedy such as this. Further, the people of Los Angeles still have the right to protest, as do the Palestinians. Tibetans and the Chinese people do not... even further, the people of Palestine and Los Angeles have a free press and they have free speech. They can and do vote. And so on. How far will you go to defend these criminals...

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I'm no lover of China Owner but perspective is what is needed, especially when there are western politicians that would use the situation in Tibet as an excuse to further their anti-Chinese goals and don't really give a fig about Tibetans per se.

As for 16 dead, it is a tragedy but wasn't there 52 dead in the Los Angeles riots and didn't the Israelis kill around 200 or so Palestinians recently of which estimates by human rights organisations claim over 100 were women, children and the very old.




< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/17/2008 6:44:18 AM >

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/17/2008 6:44:50 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		It's a strange sort of logic that can use totally unrelated events to try to justify a human rights tragedy such as this the way you do.

Further, the people of Los Angeles still have the right to protest, as do the Palestinians. Tibetans and the Chinese people do not...

Even further, the people of Palestine and Los Angeles have a free press and they have free speech. They can and do vote for their leaders. And so on.

How far are you willing to go to defend these criminals? And why do you do it. Why do you believe the official Chinese estimates of the number of civilian casualties, when I highly doubt that you would ever believe such an account  given by most any Western Democracy.



quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I'm no lover of China Owner but perspective is what is needed, especially when there are western politicians that would use the situation in Tibet as an excuse to further their anti-Chinese goals and don't really give a fig about Tibetans per se.

As for 16 dead, it is a tragedy but wasn't there 52 dead in the Los Angeles riots and didn't the Israelis kill around 200 or so Palestinians recently of which estimates by human rights organisations claim over 100 were women, children and the very old.




< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/17/2008 6:50:24 AM >

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/17/2008 8:25:15 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I'm no lover of China Owner but perspective is what is needed, especially when there are western politicians that would use the situation in Tibet as an excuse to further their anti-Chinese goals and don't really give a fig about Tibetans per se.

As for 16 dead, it is a tragedy but wasn't there 52 dead in the Los Angeles riots and didn't the Israelis kill around 200 or so Palestinians recently of which estimates by human rights organisations claim over 100 were women, children and the very old.




It's a strange sort of logic that can use totally unrelated events to try to justify a human rights tragedy such as this the way you do.

Further, the people of Los Angeles still have the right to protest, as do the Palestinians. Tibetans and the Chinese people do not...

Even further, the people of Palestine and Los Angeles have a free press and they have free speech. They can and do vote for their leaders. And so on.

How far are you willing to go to defend these criminals? And why do you do it. Why do you believe the official Chinese estimates of the number of civilian casualties, when I highly doubt that you would ever believe such an account  given by most any Western Democracy.



I never said I believe the Chinese figures and I don't support China's policy but I'm not going to be dragged into supporting people using the Tibetan situation as a ruse to spread anti-Chinese propaganda which I believe you are more interested in. I have never noticed you complaining about people being killed by men in uniform before. My guess is it is alright for you when civilians are killed by America and its allies but not OK for the civilians killed by the Chinese.  I'm just as much against Americans and their allies killing and causing civilian deaths as I am against the Chinese doing it but I'm not going to be used as a tool by people who are prejudiced against the Chinese because they see them as a potential economic rival.


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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/17/2008 8:53:58 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Status: offline 		Meatcleaver and Sanity,

You are both wrong.  First off, George Bush has betrayed America and destroyed out economy (and made a ton of cash in the process) so that China doesn't need to fight us directly. 

China isn't stupid like us, they only make war when the outcome is certain, they will not invade Europe, why would they?  Europe isn't standing between them and oil.  America is doing that.

China is rebuilding their military and they aren't buying obsolete stuff but they aren't buying American which on some level means that while not obsolete, their weapons arent a match for ours.

China is going to take Taiwan but any move  into the ME is going to be checked by the Russians so what their next move would be is hard to guess.  We own the oceans and that isn't going to change even when our economy collapses over the next few years.

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/17/2008 10:14:30 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		Meatcleaver: "The OP writes "NO Genocide Olympics". I was listening to a report on the BBC today in which the Dalai Lama said cultural genocide was happening in Tibet. Some proffessor offered an alternative view, saying there might be many things wrong in Tibet but cultural genocide is not one of them, apparently there are more budhist priests per capita in Tibet than any other budhist country in the world and the Tibetan language is growing."

According to the definition of genocide I'd lean towards the DL's position, myself. Not why I had to respond, though.

"More Buddhist priests..." more Catholic priests per capita in the Vatican, too. Man, that's a "duh".
"Tibetan language is growing...". If the population is growing, I would, for some strange reason, expect that.
Gawd, that's a hoot. Professor's at the top of his game, apparently.

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 2:46:04 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Meatcleaver: "The OP writes "NO Genocide Olympics". I was listening to a report on the BBC today in which the Dalai Lama said cultural genocide was happening in Tibet. Some proffessor offered an alternative view, saying there might be many things wrong in Tibet but cultural genocide is not one of them, apparently there are more budhist priests per capita in Tibet than any other budhist country in the world and the Tibetan language is growing."

According to the definition of genocide I'd lean towards the DL's position, myself. Not why I had to respond, though.

"More Buddhist priests..." more Catholic priests per capita in the Vatican, too. Man, that's a "duh".
"Tibetan language is growing...". If the population is growing, I would, for some strange reason, expect that.
Gawd, that's a hoot. Professor's at the top of his game, apparently.


I'm all for Tibetan freedom as everyone elses freedom but let's not use the word genocide every time a people are subjugated, brutal or otherwise because it is some western rival doing the subjugating rather than the west itself, it is clearly not happening.

gen·o·cide    the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

According to the news today China has invested substantially in Tibet and many Tibetans but not all have benefited, this is not an alternative to freedom or devolved government but it goes against the grain of cultural genocide.

The west is in a tricky position when ranting on about saving cultures as the west has commited cultural genocide more than anyone else has. The laugh being, China's regime and growth is based on western culture and economics. If there is evidence that China is commiting cultural genocide, let's point the accusing finger but if it isn't and there is no evidence that it is, it makes the west look rather sanctimonious and loses the west any moral high ground it might have, which isn't much.

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 3:46:35 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
quote:

seeks
Because many seem to have no qualms about not criticising other authoritarian regimes or more particularly policies if it suits them

An odd form of straw man argument.  In addition to being wrong, it is wholly irrelevant to the topic at hand. 
Beijing is an oppressive repressive regime.  To deny that is to deny current events (and not merely in Tibet).  Voicing specific opposition to one oppressive regime is itself not  tacit acceptance of other oppressive regimes.  Your thesis is factually suspect and logically incoherent.

Whole lot of words amounting to: You are wrong.(seeks says Sacre Bleu lol)

First I explicitly stated that China is an authoritian regime but is slowly changing, especially on the economic front.

What I tried to express but because I used too few words  the meaning was obscure  is this
The US, in particular, loses much credibility when it is highly selective in deciding which  authoritarian regime  it will oppose.
Thus China bad...which it is. Kick up stink. I think the real worry is China's economic rise plus latent racism.
Iran under the Shah, say nothing and even actively support  though they may be just as bad as China. The reason being the supply of Oil, which I admit has to be maintained.
important addition: the extreme military shenanigans of Israel. The US is completely isolated on this one. I accept that Israel has a right to exist and take proportionate measures to ensure their survival.

I say again that if China has swept away those who constructed and probably wish to re introduce a slave society then what they, the Chinese, have done is not totally wrong.

Your apparent "spiritual" commitment to the teachings of the Dhalai Lama (sp) is also irrelevent .
I must admit I thought that Buddhism was  a somewhat tolerant non authoritarian religion. It seems that with regard to its application in Tibet I really was wrong.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/18/2008 4:23:21 AM >

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 4:03:24 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		There are various forms of Buddhism Seeks - probably Tibetan Buddhism is most known in the west (perhaps due to the diaspora and the need for monks to make a living absent the slaves?), and the Japanese Zen stuff (which I dont know much about but seems to be fairly well removed from Gautama Buddha's ideas). Then there is Buddhism in south Asia too which is differerent again - and I guess we could throw in "western" Buddhism as a type too, being rarely found as a direct transplant of only one strain from the east IME.

E

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 5:15:50 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		I have been watching and reading this thread with total interest.  I am going to back slaveboy - even though I hold the 'tenants' of tibetan buddhism high - there seems as always a misunderstanding of history.
 
'FreeTibet' is nothing more than a glorification, a soap box for people - mostly famous, some infamous and others just plain 'normal' to increase their 'feelgood factor'.    It's full of crap second hand info and does not look at the bigger picture.
 
The dalai is indeed a wise man with many words that should be heard.  However he is not infalible.  He understands power and the use of it.  He understands the power of fear.  And that words must be used carefully for full affect.  He is an extremely personable human being, which seperates him from the pope because there is a difference in leadership there(the pope dictates for people to initiate, the dalai initiates so that others dictate), but he is no more or less wiser.  He understands the use of body language and timing.  He also seeks enlightenment - it could be suggested he is 'A person of High motive'.  In essence, his selflessness is selfish.
 
The buddhism practised by westerners is diluted new age buddhism due to Tibetan diaspora.  Tibetan Monks are linked to the aristocracy in Tibet.  They are trained killers and assassins.  'Freedom' doesn't come into that branch of buddhism.  That doesn't mean China is any better, but it is inherently misguided to claim that returning to Tibets old regime is a much better option.  It is another option, but it doesn't mean it is the best option.  But what do I or any of us know? We are not Tibetans and we aren't buddhists of the Kadam.  Tibetians 'covert' suffering.  It means they are nearer to enlightenment, which is why being controlled by the Monks is a more attractive 'offer' to them because it is a known fear, there is suffering with enlightenment.
 
the.dark.



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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 6:56:24 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

First I explicitly stated that China is an authoritian regime but is slowly changing, especially on the economic front.


Changing oppressive form.  There is little evidence to suggest China is becoming less authoritarian.

quote:


What I tried to express but because I used too few words the meaning was obscure is this
The US, in particular, loses much credibility when it is highly selective in deciding which authoritarian regime it will oppose.

That's mere realism.  The wise man chooses his battles with great care.  If you wish to argue that the US government has chosen the wrong battles, I am likely to agree with you in at least some instances, but that does not undermine to propriety of making the choice.
quote:


Thus China bad...which it is. Kick up stink. I think the real worry is China's economic rise plus latent racism.
Iran under the Shah, say nothing and even actively support though they may be just as bad as China. The reason being the supply of Oil, which I admit has to be maintained.
important addition: the extreme military shenanigans of Israel. The US is completely isolated on this one. I accept that Israel has a right to exist and take proportionate measures to ensure their survival.

Support of various Middle Eastern regimes (the Shah as well as Saddam Hussein) was fundamentally a Cold War calculus--keep those countries out of the Soviet sphere of influence. Again, were the individual choices wrong?  That can be argued, and quite persuasively in more than a few instances.  That does not render the act of choosing itself suspect.
quote:


I say again that if China has swept away those who constructed and probably wish to re introduce a slave society then what they, the Chinese, have done is not totally wrong.

In effect, you are saying it is permissible for one people to impose their will on another, so long as the will that is imposed conforms to Western ideology.

In my readings of the history of Tibet, I have not seen where there was an incipient pro-democracy movement in Tibet that prompted the Chinese invasion.  I have not seen where the Tibetan people wanted to depose HH the Dalai Lama.  Whether Tibetan society was just or unjust prior to the Chinese invasion does not alter the fact that it was Tibetan.  China has taken many steps to dilute and in effect eradicate Tibetan society.  They have even gone so far as to attempt the selection of Tibetan Lamas from Beijing, rather than in accordance with Tibetan traditions.

Such imperfections and injustices as most certainly do exist within Tibetan society do not mitigate nor absolve China for blatant territorial aggression and, yes, cultural genocide.  

quote:


Your apparent "spiritual" commitment to the teachings of the Dhalai Lama (sp) is also irrelevent .
I must admit I thought that Buddhism was a somewhat tolerant non authoritarian religion. It seems that with regard to its application in Tibet I really was wrong.

My appreciation and respect for the teachings of HH The Dalai Lama is indeed most irrelevant.  This is not a religious question but a question of a people's collective right to their own society, their own culture, their own destiny.  China is an invading nation.  It is as wrong in Tibet as it is in Iraq.

As for Buddhism being non-authoritarian, religions are always inherently authoritarian.  When you draw the line and say "This is right, that is wrong", you are at the beginning of an authoritarian stance.    No religion is ever purely democratic.


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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 7:01:39 AM   
Moloch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

M

China is rebuilding their military and they aren't buying obsolete stuff but they aren't buying American which on some level means that while not obsolete, their weapons arent a match for ours.

China is going to take Taiwan but any move  into the ME is going to be checked by the Russians so what their next move would be is hard to guess.  We own the oceans and that isn't going to change even when our economy collapses over the next few years.


China isnt buying American its STEALING American.

Russians arent checking jack. Their military is a rusty heap, with several new prototypes because they cant afford the production and their population is shrinking.


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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 7:04:17 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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Status: offline 		You are right, to oppose China or support China is a convenience of politics, China has already acknowledged this is the reason why many countries are speaking out against China and why it sees no moral reason to change. The west has no moral high ground on which to stand, especially when it is economically up to its neck in cahoots with China for its own ends. Yep, that is the nature of real politik. There really is no morals or integrity involved in the western stance.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/18/2008 7:06:39 AM >

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 7:05:38 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

M

China is rebuilding their military and they aren't buying obsolete stuff but they aren't buying American which on some level means that while not obsolete, their weapons arent a match for ours.

China is going to take Taiwan but any move  into the ME is going to be checked by the Russians so what their next move would be is hard to guess.  We own the oceans and that isn't going to change even when our economy collapses over the next few years.


China isnt buying American its STEALING American.



No it isn't. As Lenin pointed out, Capitalists will sell you the rope you use to hang them with.

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 7:13:55 AM   
Moloch


Posts: 1090
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		I am talking about military and communications technology, which yes they are stealing pretty blatantly.
Espionage....


< Message edited by Moloch -- 3/18/2008 7:14:32 AM >

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